Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Thesp]

There is still a slight possibility that SV is a townie being used by the mafia as a stalking horse, someone they defend to gain credibility if a townie executes her.

See, I though SV was mafia being set up as a speedbump for the rest of the mafia bus.

[Yosarian2]

To answer Cavane's question: Yos2, hands down. There is still a slight possibility that SV is a townie being used by the mafia as a stalking horse, someone they defend to gain credibility if a townie executes her. SV has not on the whole, since about day 2, been heavily involved in arguing for and against executions. Yos is no-one's stalking horse. Execution of Yos would establish which "side" is the scummy one.

:eyebrow:

I'm curious. What, exactally, would my death "establish"? Assume, for the sake of argument, that I ws executed and I came up pro-town. What would that prove, exactally?

[RafK]

Would prove I'm full of crap, and probably lead to the execution of myself and others you have been against.

However, I am very very very confident that you would come up scum- knowing that I am town, if you're town as well then the scum have an easy win here by getting you killed (whether by execution or nightkill) and then me executed in retaliation. Or alternatively me nightkilled, and you executed in retaliation. The scum are avoiding this confrontation- there hasn't been a massive chorus of support either with me or directly against me. Instead, time and again the thrust of the support goes to a target off to the side.

[Yosarian2]

Would prove I'm full of crap, and probably lead to the execution of myself and others you have been against.

However, I am very very very confident that you would come up scum- knowing that I am town, if you're town as well then the scum have an easy win here by getting you killed (whether by execution or nightkill) and then me executed in retaliation. Or alternatively me nightkilled, and you executed in retaliation. The scum are avoiding this confrontation- there hasn't been a massive chorus of support either with me or directly against me. Instead, time and again the thrust of the support goes to a target off to the side.

How would me being town prove you were scum and get you executed? It would prove that you were WRONG, of course, but I've never argued that you're especally scummy; I tend to thing you're most likely a misguided townie, personally. And I'm not surprised the scum haven't "gone after you"; so long as you continue your crusade against me, you help keep the focus off the scum, and your incorrect assumption that I'm scum could be very dangerous for the town if we both make it to endgame.

[spectrumvoid]

I thought the reason would be pretty obvious for me not getting into the arguments for who's to be lynched today...

I'm one of the execution-candidates. As such, I will obviously be saying the other 2 are scummy. So I don't see how my input will add much to the game.

I'm not getting why Fritzler is 'yesterday's lynch' though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The comments and actions regarding a possible Fritzler execution are seeming a lot like those regarding Mnowax's execution yesterday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Fritzler, VitaminR

*gasp*

Now it's 4/3-3/2. I honestly don't see how 4 out of 16 means it's the "will of the people", or any more than Fritzler and Vitty are.

This helps. Thanks!

Why are you still side-stepping Mastermind of Sin? Why isn't he on there?

Also, lynching someone because it will give us information is a terrible reason to lynch someone.

Thank you for completely ignoring the fact that I think SV is scummy and sidestepping that issue to try and twist my words into something bad.

[Cavane]

Also, lynching someone because it will give us information is a terrible reason to lynch someone.

And I disagree with that, in any case. Especially in a game with no investigative roles, lynching for information is perfectly valid.

[Thok]

I'll politely remind people that Thesp and Thok are different people. Only Thok has the power to modkill people in this game.

Official vote count

King Zindaras (1):

Fritzler, VitaminR

List of Execution:

SV, VitaminR, Fritzler

Cavane (2):
Cogito Ergo Sum (0):
Fritzler (2):
KaleiÐoscøpe (0): mnowax, Fritzler
Lowell (1):
Mastermind of Sin (4):
mnowax (3): (MOS)
petroleumjelly (1): mnowax, SV, VitaminR
RafK (0): Yosarian2, SV
spectrumvoid (6): MOS, Fritzler
ThAdmiral (0):
Thesp (0): MOS, SV, Cavane, Zindaras
Toaster Strudel (0): MOS, SV, Cavane, VitaminR, mnowax
VitaminR (3): SV, PetroleumJelly
Yosarian2 (1): Lowell

[Cavane]

Ack, sorry about that. That was Thesp's quote, obv. You can fix it, if you like Thok.

[RafK]

FWIW, Zindy, SV has the highest number of votes too. Just saying

[Thesp]

Vote: Fritzler, VitaminR

*gasp*

Now it's 4/3-3/2. I honestly don't see how 4 out of 16 means it's the "will of the people", or any more than Fritzler and Vitty are.

This helps. Thanks!

Why are you still side-stepping Mastermind of Sin? Why isn't he on there?

Also, lynching someone because it will give us information is a terrible reason to lynch someone.

Thank you for completely ignoring the fact that I think SV is scummy and sidestepping that issue to try and twist my words into something bad.

I'm confused. How did my attack on Zindaras here have anything to do with what you're suggesting?

(reads back)

Ah, you're upset that I think lynching someone to gain information is a terrible, terrible idea/strategy/way of doing things. If you think SV is scummy (and it seems you do), all power to you. However, when you say, "SV is another possible scum, and there's been enough debate on her that we'd gain a lot of info from her execution", I have to take issue with that. If you list 5 good reasons and one "suspect" reason, it seems absurd to me that I oughtn't call out the "suspect" reason (which is what you're suggesting here).

And I disagree with that, in any case. Especially in a game with no investigative roles, lynching for information is perfectly valid.

We're going to get information no matter what. We should lynch someone because we think they're scum. Lynching scum gives us a heck of a lot more info than lynching a random townie because lots of people have weighed in on said random townie.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thesp, it's not a bad reason

unless

you don't think the person is scum. Taking two relatively scummy people and lynching one because they give you more information to act on the next day is a

good

thing, not a terrible thing.

[Fritzler]

See the vote count - You and mnowax have 4 & 3 votes respectively, while Fritzler and VitaminR have 2 and 1 respectively. For a king who seems to be not participating very much in his own reign, I find it especially odd he glossed over some apparent will of the people without so much as a word.

Vote: Fritzler, VitaminR

*gasp*

Now it's 4/3-3/2. I honestly don't see how 4 out of 16 means it's the "will of the people", or any more than Fritzler and Vitty are.

forgive me for not taking this seriously

[Zindaras]

Sorry about the lack of who was being quoted. My quote tags break whenever I include a name. In any case, I wasn't necessarily expecting responses from each of the people concerned. That was more for the benefit of the rest of the players, to know where I stand on recent events.

Put " " around the names.

This helps. Thanks!

You're welcome.

Why are you still side-stepping Mastermind of Sin?

I ain't side-stepping no one, dear Thesp. He isn't on my LoE, so I believe he's not a good execution. I believe that the huge amount of flak he got for his unorthodox playstyle in this game is an indicator of being town. Your case is reasonable, but I do not believe it makes him a better execution than others.

Why isn't he on there?

Because I don't believe he's a good execution. Also, for your information, I will not be coerced into executing anyone.

I thought the reason would be pretty obvious for me not getting into the arguments for who's to be lynched today...

I'm one of the execution-candidates. As such, I will obviously be saying the other 2 are scummy. So I don't see how my input will add much to the game.

Yuck. This looks scummity scummity scum to me. But, my dear voidybuns, you're not getting away this easily.

What amazes me, time and time again, is the value people place in the LoE. Essentially, an LoE is intangible, irrelevant. It says very very little. Now, voidybuns, all that your strategy accomplishes is that it makes you look even scummier because you look frightfully opportunistic.

[Zindaras]

forgive me for not taking this seriously

Hey Fritz. I love you.

Who's the play?

[spectrumvoid]

Hi kingycakes!

I disagree. I think that a LOE centres discussion. We still have a pretty large game going on. It's better to have discussion centred on a few people rather than a whole mass. This also increases incentive for people to share their opinions.

And it's not being opportunistic, it's common sense Well, I

could

say I'm scummier than the other 2, but then I'll be insane.

[Zindaras]

Hi kingycakes!

I disagree. I think that a LOE centres discussion. We still have a pretty large game going on. It's better to have discussion centred on a few people rather than a whole mass. This also increases incentive for people to share their opinions.

Oh yes, the LoE is a useful little thing. But I don't believe that it should dominate people's behaviour and make them do things they shouldn't do.

And it's not being opportunistic, it's common sense Well, I

could

say I'm scummier than the other 2, but then I'll be insane.

I'm not interested in who you want to die. I know who you want to die. I'm interested in who you think is scum.

[RafK]

She knows who's scum, she's just not telling.

Where's the :teach: smilie when you need it?

[Zindaras]

I do not work under the assumption that someone is scum until that someone is actually found to be scum.

[RafK]

I do not work under the assumption that someone is scum until that someone is actually found to be scum.

Nonetheless, it's up to you to execute someone, which will require you to assume someone is at least probably scum before they are actually proven to be so. There's no cops in this game; no absolute proof available.

As is obvious enough, I've been set on SV and Yos for 3 days. Neither of the last two executions, nor SV and Yos' performances during those days, have done anything but reinforce my feeling that I'm on the right track- nonetheless, it's always possible that today's execution will force me to reconsider.

The advantage of assuming someone is scum and working from there is that you can see if it makes sense or not. If not, you assume someone else is scum and see if that's better.

Assuming everyone's town

a priori

means you're getting something wrong, after all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think Zindaras is assuming everyone is town. It is not required that you assume someone is town if you don't assume them to be scum. This is not black and white.

[Zindaras]

I think you've missed my point a bit. I was mostly saying that I don't think we should just ignore her and act like she's scum when she's not found to be scum already. We should at the very least just let her talk. Just going and saying she's scum and not letting her talk won't work.

Also, I don't assume everyone's town either. I just don't assume anything. Assuming anything automatically makes one's perceptions clouded.

When you think someone is scum, you can say that others are scummy by association with that first one. However, asides from stating them for future use, if you die, such feelings are useless, as they are not actually solid logic until the first player dies and is found to be scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now I know why DGB irritates me so much...

[Yosarian2]

Hi kingycakes!

I disagree. I think that a LOE centres discussion. We still have a pretty large game going on. It's better to have discussion centred on a few people rather than a whole mass. This also increases incentive for people to share their opinions.

And it's not being opportunistic, it's common sense Well, I

could

say I'm scummier than the other 2, but then I'll be insane.

No one's asking you to analyze yourself, SV, but you still should give us your opinions on the other two people on the LOE, and on mnowax as well. If you're town, then I don't see why you would automatically attack the other people on the LOE just to protect yourself, so that line of reasoning dosn't make a lot of sense.