Mini 442 - Beast Wars Mafia Game Over

[Albert B. Rampage]

I guess I seen too many murders, the doctors can't help me
Got me stressin' with my pistol in my sheets, it ain't healthy
Am I paranoid? - Tell me the truth
I'm out the window with my AK, ready to shoot
Ran out of endo and my mind can't take the stress,
I'm out of breath
Make me wanna kill my damn self

[ryan]

I'm going back to

unvote, vote ryan

. Your last few posts have been a bit off, in my opinion. Something about the way you wrote "us townies" and argued that quiet players are actually HELPFUL doesn't sit right.

Your entitled to your opinion. My argument that quiet players are helpful for us townies is basically this, people who are quiet on this game usually have something to hide and are hoping that they fly under the radar by not posting things that could get them into trouble. Those people are usually the ones that with a few votes or by "calling them out" will make a mistake and make it easier for us to vote them off. I dont know why putting "us townies" is any different than how others have?

[JordanA24]

I'm going back to

unvote, vote ryan

. Your last few posts have been a bit off, in my opinion. Something about the way you wrote "us townies" and argued that quiet players are actually HELPFUL doesn't sit right.

Your entitled to your opinion. My argument that quiet players are helpful for us townies is basically this, people who are quiet on this game usually have something to hide and are hoping that they fly under the radar by not posting things that could get them into trouble. Those people are usually the ones that with a few votes or by "calling them out" will make a mistake and make it easier for us to vote them off. I dont know why putting "us townies" is any different than how others have?

How is this an argument for quiet players being helpful for the town? How's 'flying under the radar by not posting things that could get them into trouble' possibly going to be of any use to us? Discussion = Scum being outed.

Just count yourself lucky I'm so convinced Lowell is scum, or you'll be at lynch -2 now, you've just made my scumdar jump up and fly out of the window.

[ryan]

Thanks for misreading my post. I said that when people try and fly under the radar it makes it easier for us to vote them off because they aren't contributing anyway. Obviously your scumdar needs a few screws tightened because it's WAY off if you think I'm scum

[JordanA24]

Thanks for misreading my post. I said that when people try and fly under the radar it makes it easier for us to vote them off because they aren't contributing anyway. Obviously your scumdar needs a few screws tightened because it's WAY off if you think I'm scum

Oh right, sorry.

At least my scumdar returned.

[Lowell]

Thanks for misreading my post. I said that when people try and fly under the radar it makes it easier for us to vote them off because they aren't contributing anyway. Obviously your scumdar needs a few screws tightened because it's WAY off if you think I'm scum

Still a dumb point. Now it just looks like opportunism. If you were convinced teffc was scum, his replacement will be too, obv. Instead your argument is basically "it's easier to lynch quiet people." Fair enough, but that shouldnt' be what you're doing.

That you're worried that teffc's replacement might start to actually contribute makes me think you're searching for an easy lynch.

[ryan]

Thanks for misreading my post. I said that when people try and fly under the radar it makes it easier for us to vote them off because they aren't contributing anyway. Obviously your scumdar needs a few screws tightened because it's WAY off if you think I'm scum

Still a dumb point. Now it just looks like opportunism. If you were convinced teffc was scum, his replacement will be too, obv. Instead your argument is basically "it's easier to lynch quiet people." Fair enough, but that shouldnt' be what you're doing.

That you're worried that teffc's replacement might start to actually contribute makes me think you're searching for an easy lynch.

I didnt think it possible for you to get any scummier but you were able to even eclipse that. You sat around quiet for days with no vote on anyone and now you see your opportunity and you pounce? Thanks for making my case against you even easier

[TrustGossip]

I'm always worried about a replacement for possible mafia. It involves reanalysing a playstyle, and if the replacement is smart, they'll be able to absolve teffc of anything and adopt a fervently pro-town status when it was obvious teffc couldn't handle her scum role.

[HackerHuck]

Aren't we just barely starting this game? I don't understand all the commotion regarding the two replacements. This seems like a smokescreen to me...

[Primoris]

After reading back a bit: Aimee might have contributed little when it comes to the amount of posts, I did like and appreciate the analysis. I would assume she's not scum. Ryan, Lowell and Jordan would appear most vocal, as well as TrustGossip more recently into the game. Ryan and Lowell are probably not teamed up one way or another, but Jordan seems to be going towards ryan's side in their ongoing discussion. Whether that's one townie believing another or something else, I'm not sure. I just found Jordan to support ryan extensively.

Less active players seem to be HackerHuck, dreezr and OverTheUnder and please correct me if I'm wrong but none of them is asking to be replaced at the moment. While HackerHuck's posts have been short, they definitely were not meaningless. Dreezr and OverTheUnder, however, do seem to be missing in action at this point. Lurking? Or out of willingness to play?

Of course, Albert is drawing attention to himself like mad, but he can't help it. Still, his posts are intriguing. I haven't figured out yet what they could mean, except that they seem to have to be rhymes.

I'll comment on the replaced people and their replacements once they've picked up posting.

I know this might look odd, but I'm going to

Unvote

at this point. Again, I did not feel I was wrong earlier, if anything I played dangerously, but nothing more. However, by staying active day by day and making fair points towards Lowell, who's been less and less able to put up a good defense and good posting, he's been convincing me of his innocense. Like I said earlier, the OMGUS vote from Lowell was really out of place but I'd like to keep my peace for now.

[Sweenytodd]

Hey guys... So I re-read the thread again and will now tell you things I found suspicious...

I agree that bandwagon's sometimes can get people to crack but isn't it also possible we mess up and nuke one of our townies? That makes me a little uneasy about piling on a newbie who could mess up and get defensive EVEN if they are a townie (saw it happen in a few games I've played). I just would hate to put the axe to one of our own on the first day ya know?

This is a 12 person game with 7 to lynch... Freaking out about a third vote is a bit odd... And in my experience the newbie tends to be more cautious and LESS likely to throw on a careless vote.

WHY would you bandwagon a potential townie? I'm not sure I like your tactics

To answer this, you would bandwagon a potential townie for these reasons...
1. You can see who hops onto the wagon
2. You can see who leaves the wagon
3. You can see how the person reacts to being waggoned
4. You can guage the reactions of those who object to the wagon...
In a game where measuring reactions and responses is so critical to success, a bandwagon seems like a good play to me.

By random voting, even though we have a chance of catching scum, we've got a much higher chance of catching a pro-town player, if that vote turns into a random bandwagon, which looked like a possibility, we've got plenty of newbies who'd probably act suspicious under pressure even when they're not scum. That's why I unvoted.

Just to clarify, I don't believe the point of an early bandwagon is necessarily to run up a newbie to lynch, it's to see who is willing to support who and who makes the clearer case in defense of the bandwagon or the individual being bandwagonned.... The purpose is to gain information, not to lynch.

Yep, I'm keeping my vote open until I really believe someone's scum.

Again, not sure if I like this hesitancy... The only way we can pressure another player is to vote for them and see how they react, if we don't use our votes there is never any force behind our arguments to pressure anyone.

so you're saying you may at some point vote out of the blue without anything that's really striking...and you know, you do seem to be contradicting yourself

Okay, this makes absolutely no sense... It is a mis-reading OR mis-representation of what was said and the other example is NOT a contradiction....

Mod Note: Sweenytodd has requested the above quote to be fixed, therefore the request was followed through.

Put me in danger to get info? That's your best explanation? Vote off a townie to drop our numbers and possibly give the mafia one more step to win the game, nice reasoning. All I can say is at least I've been active and tried to find the rest of the scum to let the town come up wth a win.

First of all, he clearly said he didn't want to "Vote off a townie", merely to pressure one. As to your "All I can say is at least I've been active and tried to find the rest of the scum to let the town come up wth a win." All I have seen in reading your posts has been arguing agains Lowell which I haven't seen as a strong point, and arguing against bandwagons which I think is a bad move, and now that you are being bandwagonned, you seem to freak out...

That summary of Aimee's makes me weirdly suspcious, but I'm not sure why. M'eh.

Please explain how... I actually really liked the summary, a lot of the comments were spot on...

So far, I see our main suspects as Teffc and Lowell.

Soo... the main suspects are the two with the second and third most votes? I will concede that I don't like Teffc's posts at all but why is Ryan being given a pass?

Trying not to mimic Ryan, your post is pathetic and trying to distract everyone else from your scumminess with a last ditch attempt to wildly pinpoint the blame elsewhere. I'm also feeling very happy with my vote, it certainly isn't going anywhere else today.

Once again you and Ryan together against Lowell... Now I am not saying Lowell isn't guilty, but I have yet to read a solid case against him... And the post to which you are refering looked to me like an obvious joke... Here is my theory, the post by Lowell was intended to elicit reactions... and he got very similar sounding responses from you and Ryan which I think speaks volumes...

Wait, do I still have someone's random vote on me? Screw this:

unvote, vote OTU. I can OMGUS with the best of them.

Okay... I don't get this one Lowell, why revert to an OMGUS on someone who hasn't posted once since their random vote?

Two of our quietest players are now gone, agreed, this could be bad for us townies

Okay.... WHAT? It seems to me that the best thing for a town is to have everyone post and comment on what is said and vote with their suspicions to guage reactions... To be upset that we are replacing a quiet player and a player who hasn't posted with one new player and one player (ME) who is going to be present and playing... How is it bad to have more perspectives and more to analyze?

I said that when people try and fly under the radar it makes it easier for us to vote them off because they aren't contributing anyway.

That is the POINT of replacing them... Finding someone who WILL contribute is much better than voting off people who we have NO clues to their alignment...

Okay so it is obvious who I find most suspicious... I am going to

Vote: Ryan

and yes I realize that that is L-2. PLEASE NO ONE ELSE VOTE FOR RYAN UNTIL WE HEAR FROM TEFFC OR A REPLACEMENT...

I am also suspicious of Teffc but I want to wait on a replacement... Most of Teffc's posts have made little sense to me so maybe another player will have a fresh perspective. I also would like to hear from Jordan about why he is so quick to defend Ryan and what the case is against Lowell, Your post #114 is pretty weak so if there is more of a case please point me to it.

People I feel neutral about are almost everybody... I can't read Albert well with his post restriction which frustrates me, I liked Aimee's summary but would like to see some follow up to it.

Person I feel to be town: Hackerhuck... throughout the game I have read his posts as very strongly town and looking for scum, he is the only one I have a strong feel about...

[ryan]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, my part of this game is to help the townies find and take out the scum, voting me off will be a mistake.

[Sweenytodd]

See Ryan, the thing about that is it isn't a defense. "I've said it once and I'll say it again, my part of this game is to help the townies find and take out the scum"... All right, let's say I take your word on this... How have you helped find scum?
A. You have protested bandwagons
B. You have suspected Lowell
C. You have said "when people try and fly under the radar it makes it easier for us to vote them off because they aren't contributing anyway" which I take to mean you would rather have some quiet players you can easily vote off for not contributing instead of replacing them.

Which of these actions has been the mose effective scumhunting for you this game?

[ryan]

Well obviously since you are new I'll give you benefit of the doubt. Let me respond to your accusations

1) I don't know how bandwagons are good EVER. If you can honestly tell me how bandwagoning somebody into "messing" up is a good thing, I'll be REAL interested to hear how. All bandwagons do is make people defensive and irritable and end up starting a big argument (basically throwing off from the "Game portion"

2) So I've suspected Lowell, your point?

3) I have no problems with replacements but if somebody is going to try and fly under the radar, posting little, and not giving us anything to think about, than I dont have a problem calling them out on it

I've been apart of discussions when it's come to finding who is scum and who is not. I've contributed opinions, thoughts and ideas. Don't walk into a new game and start throwing around wild accusations about people if you dont have anything to back it up.

[TrustGossip]

I am beginning to be swayed by ryan's reasoning. Through bandwagoning each other, most of this game's discussion has been:

Lowell's inflammatory remarks and voting patterns, and discussions thereof.

ryan's strong anti-bandwagon and anti-Lowell sentiments.

Since all aimee can seem to do is pop in every 4 days or so and leave a recap post, perhaps we need a full posting summary of the two. Perhaps teffc as well, but that is increasingly less helpful as she is going to be replaced.

And SweenyTodd, even if you're earnest about this, a L-2 is extremely dangerous and won't get ryan to change his posting behavior much. If the purpose of a bandwagon is to promote discussion, then it's certainly worked, for all seven pages. I feel that at least a third of all the posts in this thread is ryan, hasn't he given you enough information?

All the bandwagon is doing is getting him terse and agitated, and it's really clouding up the mood of this entire game. Regardless, L-2 is a dangerous proposition, with teffc's replacement as possible scum, all it takes is the slip-up of one person and we have a quick lynch. An FOS would have done the job fine.

IGMEOY: SweenyTodd

[Sweenytodd]

I never claimed a bandwagon was necessarily to make someone "mess up"... Thats not what a bandwagon is for...

To answer this, you would bandwagon a potential townie for these reasons...
1. You can see who hops onto the wagon
2. You can see who leaves the wagon
3. You can see how the person reacts to being waggoned
4. You can guage the reactions of those who object to the wagon...
In a game where measuring reactions and responses is so critical to success, a bandwagon seems like a good play to me.

The reason for a bandwagon isn't to force mistakes necessarily... It gives information, not just about the person being waggoned but everyone else... It shows voting patterns which can be analyzed, it forces people to commit to either supporting the wago by joining it or supporting the person being waggoned byt defending him... Now you may not think this is a good way of finding information but I do and I will argue its merit.

Now, I am sorry if I "walk into a new game and start throwing around wild accusations about people if you dont have anything to back it up." I kinda thought my 1st post showed my suspicions and supported them, if not please let me know where I am in error and I will gladly edit my opinions... Let me try a new tack... You and Jordan are particularly passionate about Lowell being scum... As of yet I am unconvinced... I have yet to see a strong argument for that... Please either show me where you have made the argument if I missed it or make one... The onus is on you to convince me to believe your argument, not on me to agree with you on your say-so...

Trust: I recognize that L-2 is a dangerous spot to place Ryan in, I considered not doing it but decided to get myself on the record where I stood in my initial post. I realize that we need more discussion from most parties involved in this game and so I will

Unvote: Ryan

simply to be safe. This doesn't lessen my impression that Ryan is scum, but I will play it safe to promote discussion....

With regards to

If the purpose of a bandwagon is to promote discussion, then it's certainly worked, for all seven pages. I feel that at least a third of all the posts in this thread is ryan, hasn't he given you enough information?

Yes, in fact that is exactly right. I have garnered from this wagon the impression that Ryan is scummy, I don't believe he has handled the pressure very well. I also haven't seen a strong case for Lowell though I don't necessarily think he is town, and didn't want to hop onto th bandwagon of Teffc who is being replaced...

[ryan]

Post 10 and 12 were Lowell switching his votes within two posts with little or no explanation

unvote, vote Trustgossp

to bandwagon a newbie and make him crack.

How's this, just tell us your scumbuddies and I'll let you live.

I’ve already stated my stance on “bandwagoning” This by the way was post #32 (three different votes in less than two pages of discussion)

unvote, vote Trustgossp

to bandwagon a newbie and make him crack.

How's this, just tell us your scumbuddies and I'll let you live.

WHY would you bandwagon a potential townie? I'm not sure I like your tactics

My apologies. That bandwagon was totally unnecessary.

unvote, vote ryan

. FEEEAAR me...

I called him out and he freaked on me? This early in the game? It was post 35 for crying out loud (btw his 4th vote change)

I personally like to see who jumps on and off of wagons on day one.

Plays it safe but feels that Lowell is guilty?

Vote: Ryan

Good post. This guy is town.

What????

That summary of Aimee's makes me weirdly suspcious, but I'm not sure why. M'eh.

A pretty good post by Aimee was met by this by Lowell (after two pages of not posting anything)

@Jordan- Okay, okay, we get it. You're upset that we're trying to lynch your scumbuddy. Sheesh.

Seriously, you're trying to present a "most likely" scenario that doesn't include ryan, just cuz you *wubs* him too much? Does that, like, EVER work?

Ryan today, Jordan tomorrow, celebratory wine and cheese for all after.

Than re-appears again and posts this? Talk about nothing of substance and is hurting us townies more than helping us

Post 126 and 127 were both completely bogus as he jumps off my “bandwagon” (his words) and switches his vote within two posts and than jumps back on me with post 149 because my posts were “Your last few posts have been a bit off,” He’s posted just enough to “look active” but has never really taken a stance on much of anything. That enough proof?

[HackerHuck]

We can sit around singing Kumbaya and holding hands until someone slips up and admits to being scum, or we can start putting pressure on people and see what comes of it.

[Aimee]

A lot seems to have happened since my last post. Welcome, Sweenytodd!

Hackerhuck: Became defensive right away with my random.org vote. Very strange to tell somebody they suck when the vote was RANDOM. I’ve always said that early posts tell a lot about how people play and immediately I saw this as strange how he misconstrued my vote. Than jumps on me because I didn’t like how Lowell bandwagon voted and says I’m not playing it “safe” like I earlier said? How is one vote on somebody not playing it safe? Post 64 asking me what I thought about the “bandwagon on me” also seemed rather odd.

Um, that's actually a pretty weak case, you understand?

To you townies that still haven't voted it's time to step up and take out the trash. There are scum that have targeted me, do not let them take me out, I am a pro town player and am more helpful alive than dead, trust me.

Pressurising non-voters is a horrible strategy, especially since 1) we aren't in a deadline and 2) they could be not voting for a reason. It is horribly aggressive and pushy, and has continued for several pages. Any reason why?

Well, Ryan's bandwagon was mostly because people had a slight suspicion about his safe voting tactics, and some cited not voting Lowell even though he was sure as a reason EVEN THOUGH HE DID VOTE LOWELL.

Also, apart from deezr's random vote, Lowell, who is scum, was the first to vote for him for seemingly no reason at all. It seems obvious to me that either Lowell or Teffc are by far better lynches for today.

You understand this is horribly supportive of Ryan?

I also agree with what Sweenytodd says a lot of the time, especially with Lowell's bizarre suspicion arising from it. I agreed with what Sweenytodd says, which therefore surprised me when both Ryan ( I can understand) and TrustGossip decided to defend Ryan.

Also, how are bandwagons inherently bad? I am of the belief we need a random bandwagon to start day 1. By using bandwagons, we can assess vote-hopping, reactions ot the bandwagons and who is on and off bandwagons at all times. They can be incredibly valuable, paradoxically, for town.

FoS: Ryan

, for some rather faulty logic here. Note, I won't be putting a vote on, but I don't understand why Sweenytodd putting Ryan at -2 was so shockingly awful.

[ryan]

Aimee-Nice of you to check in.

1) A weak argument? Strictly your opinion as I made my case and supported it. Disagree or agree it's still my opinion

2) You use bandwagoning as your strategy and I use "going after lurkers" as mine. Its your choice how you get scum and we might not agree on which strategy to use but at least it's a strategy

If there was something obviously scummy that I've done please point it out to me because the cases that have been thrown at me haven't been very conclusive and even you have to be honest that scum has taken advantage of it to jump on with votes

[JordanA24]

Well, Ryan's bandwagon was mostly because people had a slight suspicion about his safe voting tactics, and some cited not voting Lowell even though he was sure as a reason EVEN THOUGH HE DID VOTE LOWELL.

Also, apart from deezr's random vote, Lowell, who is scum, was the first to vote for him for seemingly no reason at all. It seems obvious to me that either Lowell or Teffc are by far better lynches for today.

You understand this is horribly supportive of Ryan?

I'm supportive of Ryan because I don't think he's scum and I agree with his ideas. I assure you we have no connection with each other at all, we just agree that Lowell is obvious scum, I have no idea why you don't see this, Lowell really should be dead by now as far as I'm concerned.

[TrustGossip]

And I suppose that I should be the flagbearer for the case against teffc? It's in my best interest to oppose a possible quick lynch of ryan, only because I see teffc's behavior as a greater evil. And now she has free license to lurk because she is up for replacement.

Could we get a vote count and the status of the last replacement, mod?

[ryan]

I still think Lowell is the best bet for his scummish behavior TrustGossip but I can also see your case against Teffc

[HackerHuck]

Would someone mind filling me in regarding the case on Teffc?

Lurking isn't always scummy, and being replaced is an indication that it's not really lurking.

A quick reminder, this is day one in a twelve player game. Odds are against us lynching scum, so don't get too fearful of a wagon pushing someone to lynch-2.

[ryan]

Would someone mind filling me in regarding the case on Teffc?

Lurking isn't always scummy, and being replaced is an indication that it's not really lurking.

A quick reminder, this is day one in a twelve player game.

Odds are against us lynching scum

, so don't get too fearful of a wagon pushing someone to lynch-2.

But with more conversation we can get a better feel on who to lynch, you seem to be pretty quick to want a lynch all of a sudden, why is that?