Kingmaker II-Game Over

[VitaminR]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Who's Mert?[/quote]
Confused predecessors, sorry.

[quote="Mastermind of Sin"]Why do you think Fritzler is protown, VitaminR?[/quote]
He has made a couple of uncharacteristic attempts to seriously contribute. He also joked a lot about being Pooky's scumbuddy, which seems too obvious for a real scumbuddy.

PJ, I discounted myself. That leaves mnowax, spectrumvoid and Battle Mage as the people you were suspicious of in your analysis. 2 out of 3 doesn't seem unfair.

Also, give me a bit of time to indicate exactly what I disagree with in your analysis. You really post a lot.

On DR: It is exactly the fact that he had the time and the power, yet did absolutely nothing that makes him seem helpless. He had so many chances to comment, to do more than he did, that I think it was genuine.

[petroleumjelly]

PJ, I discounted myself. That leaves mnowax, spectrumvoid and Battle Mage as the people you were suspicious of in your analysis. 2 out of 3 doesn't seem unfair.[/quite]

Battle Mage

is

mnowax.

If you're going to say "I think mnowax1 (from yesterday) is town and PJ's analysis is wrong", you're being rather unfair - he has already been executed and shown to be town. You're free to point to where you don't agree in my analysis (there is undoubtedly things which are clearly wrong, since he was town), but saying "you think mnowax1 is town" is not saying much of anything. Hence, you really

are

only saying "I think 1/2 of PJ's suspicions is wrong".

Just skimmed your posts, and the only mention you have of mnowax1:

I am here. Not particularly enthused by a mnowax lynch. He mostly seems incompetent, but not too scummy.

Which is nice, but doesn't take CTD's posts and reactions (or lack of them) into consideration at all.

On DR: It is exactly the fact that he had the time and the power, yet did absolutely nothing that makes him seem helpless. He had so many chances to comment, to do more than he did, that I think it was genuine.

I can't understand this at all. When people have the time and purposely don't do anything with it, that does not strike me as "helpless"

whatsoever

. That might just be me, but I don't think it is.

[VitaminR]

If you're going to say "I think mnowax1 (from yesterday) is town and PJ's analysis is wrong", you're being rather unfair - he has already been executed and shown to be town. You're free to point to where you don't agree in my analysis (there is undoubtedly things which are clearly wrong, since he was town), but saying "you think mnowax1 is town" is not saying much of anything. Hence, you really

are

only saying "I think 1/2 of PJ's suspicions is wrong".

Well, obviously I'm not voting you for disagreeing with your conclusions (being wrong is not that scummy). It's the analysis that's important. I will get to that.

I don't know, it was an impression that was formed yesterday, but I didn't have the time to outline a case and I know that expressing any sort of suspicion of you leads to this kind of nitpicking that just drags on and on.

[Thesp]

I repeat. When's the last time you've seen a game where I was scum?

What's the significance of this question? Am I unqualified to think of you as scum if I've not read a game with you as scum? Am I privy to special and helpful information if I have?

Yes to the second question.

I was hoping you'd say this. The most recent game appears to be so recent it can't be discussed (it's an ongoing game). There are ethical concerns which prevent me from going further on that.

If someone did something like that I would vote them regardless of replacement. However, when the only previous actions are slightly scummy or not at all, I much prefer to give the person a relatively clean slate, because it's bullshit to ask them to explain why the person they replaced did something slightly scummy.

But why bother asking them to explain what their predecessor did, and only

use

what the predecessor said or did? Sure, the replacement may not be able to answer for their predecessors actions, but it's still

useful

. If someone replaces now, you're asking us to disregard 80+ pages of information, which seems absurd to me.

So, you're asserting that I haven't been clear in who I wanted executed, I haven't ever said something to the effect of "we should execute x", and I haven't ever proclaimed that I thought someone was protown?

This argument is also crap. There are some where it's abundantly clear (for example, your thoughts on mnowax the 1st), but for most players, it's not at all clear. You seem to ignore this, even when other people have asserted it's not clear, by saying "read my posts", then wondering why everyone's questioning you on this.

Simply because you are clear on an occasional instance does not mean it is clear in

most

instances.

For further example, it's thoroughy ambiguous (to me, at least) as to whether or not you have suspicion of me. Votes and FOS's aren't the only way to express suspicion or a desire to see someone lynched, but they are the clearest and easiest way to indicate that. Your deliberate obfuscation is troubling.

Yet another indication that you are operating on the assumption that I am scum. You have convinced yourself that I am scum, so no amount of reasonable posting by myself can convince you otherwise.

Why must it be that I'm operating under the assumption that you're scum, rather than I might read what you have to say and simply think that you're not being honest? I've changed my mind before on people's responses - to this post I've read yours and I don't think they're coming from a townie. I don't think this is as unreasonable as you seem to be making it out to be.

It looks like there's some other conversation going on not involving MoS that looks far less interesting. I'll take a look at it later - I'm behind in a couple of my games.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I repeat. When's the last time you've seen a game where I was scum?

What's the significance of this question? Am I unqualified to think of you as scum if I've not read a game with you as scum? Am I privy to special and helpful information if I have?

Yes to the second question.

I was hoping you'd say this. The most recent game appears to be so recent it can't be discussed (it's an ongoing game). There are ethical concerns which prevent me from going further on that.

To be fair, if you want to call upon the

most

recent game, that would be Bad Idea II, which is not an ongoing game. Just sayin'.

If someone did something like that I would vote them regardless of replacement. However, when the only previous actions are slightly scummy or not at all, I much prefer to give the person a relatively clean slate, because it's bullshit to ask them to explain why the person they replaced did something slightly scummy.

But why bother asking them to explain what their predecessor did, and only

use

what the predecessor said or did? Sure, the replacement may not be able to answer for their predecessors actions, but it's still

useful

. If someone replaces now, you're asking us to disregard 80+ pages of information, which seems absurd to me.

You're not reading my statements. If their predecessor did something terribly scummy, that could factor into a vote. However, if they were only slightly scummy or neutral, I'm not going to waste my time and everyone else's trying to press the issue.

So, you're asserting that I haven't been clear in who I wanted executed, I haven't ever said something to the effect of "we should execute x", and I haven't ever proclaimed that I thought someone was protown?

This argument is also crap. There are some where it's abundantly clear (for example, your thoughts on mnowax the 1st), but for most players, it's not at all clear. You seem to ignore this, even when other people have asserted it's not clear, by saying "read my posts", then wondering why everyone's questioning you on this.

Simply because you are clear on an occasional instance does not mean it is clear in

most

instances.

For further example, it's thoroughy ambiguous (to me, at least) as to whether or not you have suspicion of me. Votes and FOS's aren't the only way to express suspicion or a desire to see someone lynched, but they are the clearest and easiest way to indicate that. Your deliberate obfuscation is troubling.

I've said "read my posts" only once or twice, and only in the early game. Since then, I have been more than clear on who I thought should be executed. Do I really have to go back and quote it all out for you? I don't want to waste people's time with a quote chain if I don't have to.

I don't particularly feel you are being deceitful. I'm not sure where you picked that up from, I haven't tried to attack you in any way since you started attacking me.

Reading retention, much?

Yet another indication that you are operating on the assumption that I am scum. You have convinced yourself that I am scum, so no amount of reasonable posting by myself can convince you otherwise.

Why must it be that I'm operating under the assumption that you're scum, rather than I might read what you have to say and simply think that you're not being honest? I've changed my mind before on people's responses - to this post I've read yours and I don't think they're coming from a townie. I don't think this is as unreasonable as you seem to be making it out to be.

It looks like there's some other conversation going on not involving MoS that looks far less interesting. I'll take a look at it later - I'm behind in a couple of my games.

Considering that you're just flat out

wrong

on some of your "points" against me, it's certainly as unreasonable as I'm making it out to be. You aren't stopping to fully check your facts before you accuse me of things. You are taking actions of mine from the early game and assuming they have been reciprocated throughout the duration of the game, without actually checking to see if that was the case. If you had checked, you wouldn't have accused me of such things.

[Thesp]

To be fair, if you want to call upon the most recent game, that would be Bad Idea II, which is not an ongoing game. Just sayin'.

Not the most recent one I'd seen and/or been in with you.

You're not reading my statements. If their predecessor did something terribly scummy, that could factor into a vote. However, if they were only slightly scummy or neutral, I'm not going to waste my time and everyone else's trying to press the issue.

I

am

reading your statements, and I see you trying to whitewash the past. I'm not sure I could always assent to your perceptions of what "terribly scummy" is.

I don't want to waste people's time with a quote chain if I don't have to.

AAAAAAHHHH THE IRONY IT BURNS MY EYES MOMMY MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP

Considering that you're just flat out wrong on some of your "points" against me, it's certainly as unreasonable as I'm making it out to be.

See, I wholly and unequivocally disagree with you here. This is where we've degenerated into the posting slap-fight.

Thesp: Uh-huh.
MoS: Nuh-uh.
Thesp: Uh-huh.
MoS: Nuh-uh.

I'm a little at a loss of where to go from there, because your repeated assertions of "I'm right and you're wrong" have failed to sway me, much in the same way that my case has failed to convince you that you're scum, as I think you are. I'm a little disturbed by your unwillingness to agree to disagree.

I've got to get on to reading other people. This is ridiculous.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why should I agree to disagree? You are completely convinced I'm scum and I'm not, so I'm doing everything in my power to point out where you're wrong in your arguments so that you realize I'm not scum and can actually help us find the true scum. Agreeing to disagree wouldn't help us at all.

And like I said. If you can't find where you're wrong in your accusations, just let me know, and I'll quote posts that prove you completely wrong. I'm just giving you a chance to see it for yourself first.

[Yosarian2]

This is where we've degenerated into the posting slap-fight.

Oooh, slap fight!

*popcorn*

Thesp vs. MOS slapfight, taking bets now...

[Thesp]

You are completely convinced I'm scum and I'm not, so I'm doing everything in my power to point out where you're wrong in your arguments so that you realize I'm not scum and can actually help us find the true scum.

Where are you looking for the real killers, OJ? On the golf course? I haven't seen a whole lotta scumhunting going on from you. I'm perfectly willing to consider other people as scum, please point me in the directions you think I should look, preferably with tangible votes. Instead, I'm wasting my time answering you.

That's

my problem, not that I think you're scum, but that I feel the need to waste my time answering you when I should be looking for your buddies.

And like I said. If you can't find where you're wrong in your accusations, just let me know, and I'll quote posts that prove you completely wrong. I'm just giving you a chance to see it for yourself first.

I can't seem to find where I'm completely and blindingly wrong in all my posts. Perhaps this is some monumental failing in my ability to play mafia. I will have to look into that. That's so kind and selfless of you to offer me the opportunity to find it for myself.

Mod Edit

Massive slap fight? That's mafia. Massively oversized animated smileys that can hog bandwidth? Those go in a link.

[Thesp]

Oh, and for Yosarian2's merriment:

*post slap*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh yes, Thesp. You are totally correct in saying that I haven't been clear on how I felt about people this game. Not at all.

box is protown. Not very intelligent, it seems, but protown.

You should also consider executing one of Thok, Ubertimmy, or Yosarian2. I bet at least one of them is scum.

I support either a Yos or Pooky execution, good finds, Glork. I'd still prefer Yos, though.

And now for the fun to begin. I'm going to post an analysis of each player, and I'll hopefully get through a third of the game today. If anything, my summary of their actions should give you some good reference to work with. I would suggest directing replacements to these posts in the future.

CrashTestDummie:
Day 1 -
- Votes Glork for wanting the King dead Day 1
- Votes Pablito for defending Glork
- Votes bird1111 for "joke voting" Glork and Pablito, then unvoting them later
- Has townie vibes from Glork but is more suspicious of Pablito for not getting on Bird's case enough
Day 2 -
- Confused by pablito's play, unvotes
- wants pressure on ubertimmy, doesn't state reasons
- votes PJ for lynching Rosso on short notice
- votes StallingChamp for a post lost during the crash
- votes Twomz for bandwagon hopping and asking putting Burden of Proof on the victim instead of the attacker
- votes ubertimmy again for lurking
- attacks pablito for giving pj blanket immunity for his actions Day 1
- Agrees with MBL's stance on PJ and Pablito
- Sees no reason to execute Yos or MBL, claims confusion over Pooky and Pablito, and needs to reread Mert. Only StallingChamp should remain on the LoE
- Suspicious of LL's "too many townies" in his initial analysis
- Makes solid (imo) defense against Zindaras's attack on him (thrice)
- Finishes reread of Mert and agrees that he should be on the LoE
- Questions PJ's stance on Mert based on previous games he's player with him
- Doesn't want Yos or Pooky to be executed, prefers StallingChamp and Twomz
- Asserts that he doesn't quite think Yos and Pooky are scum, but that there isn't a case against Yos and that Pooky has been giving off protown vibes
Day 3 -
- No Posts Yet

Result: I am fairly impressed by CrashTextDummie so far. I largely feel protown vibes from him, and the only thing that seems a little off-color was his insistence that Pooky was protown, even given the fact that Pooky largely did nothing besides his one big analysis. Perhaps my timeline is off, however. I would not want to see a CTD execution anytime soon.

Dead Rikimaru:
Day 1 -
- Considers distancing tactic between pablito and Glork
- Claims that he didn't promote a pablito/Glork pairing, just that pablito is trying hard to be paired with pablito, can't think of a protown reason for it
Day 2 -
- votes pablito, no additional reasoning
- No post from Oct 27 until Dec 12, nothing of substance or length until Dec 18
- Doesn't find Yos scummy (good post)
- Claims to be unable to read Pooky, prefers him over Yos
- Amused that the LoE only contains those who have criticized Glork
Day 3 -
- Ask for top 3 suspects from each player
- Doesn't believe in randomly executing lurkers
- Calls for prods on lurkers
- Asks why Glork would bus a scumbuddy early in the game (My answer: Because he knows someone like you would ask yourself this question. Glork has admitted to being willing to bus any and all partners if he thinks it will get him a free pass through the game)
- States there are too many lurkers
- Asks me if my position on Phoebus is the same (I'll get to him eventually)

Result: I'm fairly unimpressed with Dead Rikimaru's play so far. I believe he has contradicted himself Day 1, been generally unhelpful and non-committal Day 2, and has barely offered any of his own insight into the game. His Day 3 actions have been far better than the first two days, but that is to be expected from the pressure of being King. Even so, asking for suspects and collecting reasoning is a good way to pick people to go after without having to dig up your own reasoning (he can use a conglomeration of other person's reasoning to get a protown player lynched), and being concerned with lurkers is something that scum often do to try and look helpful and protown. Everyone is concerned with lurkers, but scum tend to overdo it a bit. I could definitely see Dead Rikimaru as scum right now.

Der Hammer:
Result: Der Hammer has 5 posts, all of which are him saying that he was gonna or is going to post his thoughts soon, but he keeps getting delayed. His most recent post said he would post his thoughts 3 days ago. I could see him as lurking scum, and definitely not useful at the very least. He needs to post substance soon.

Fritzler:
Day 1 -
- Asks pj to kill CTD
- Likes Mert
- Vouches for Pooky
- Wants CTD dead
- Agrees with Glork's CTD vote
- Asks why CTD isn't dead yet
- Votes CTD
- Agrees with Twomz's post that Fritzler is one of the funnier players in the game
- Says that SV confused pj with pooky about keyboard problems
- Asks if we can kill CTD now
- Says "duh" that he's protown, claims everything he says has intrinsic merit, says "duh" that he found something with CTD, fixes Glork's D1 suspicion list to only include CTD
- wants us to check out his sig
- Wants to know why CTD isn't on any of pj's lists for execution possibility
- Calls pj CTD's scumbuddy
Day 2 -
- Wants glork to reread CTD's posts quickly
- Says MBL being scum in the last mountainous game bodes ill for him this game
- Claims to be Pooky's scumbuddy
- Basically calls StallingChamp a hypocrit, for voting Pooky/Fritz/MoS for lack of content
- Calls StallingChamp a rookie that shouldn't speak
- Pointless response to co-mod post
- Asks Glork to kill either CTD or himself (Fritzler)
Day 3 -
- Asks why he isn't king, votes Nightson
- Claims that Yosarian, Spectrumvoid, Kscope are his top 3 suspects
- Says that Nightson shouldn't bother rereading because he's going to die
- Says he'd execute Glork if he was king
- Another pointless response to Mod

Result: What happened to CTD? Fritzler never gave a good reason to suspect him in the first place (And i think CTD has been fairly protown), but after Day 1 he only mentions him once, and by Day 3 he has whole new suspicions out of nowhere. This has parallels to my play this game, with the exception that I don't believe I have clamored for someone's death so adamantly, only to drop them out of existence. Also, for being so similar to my play this game, I don't think he's come under that much fire from other players beyond the occasional vote, whereas I have been attacked by the majority of the players in this game, nearly. I could see him as scum, or perhaps just lazy. Wouldn't mind seeing him hang.

Glork's is gonna take a while, and I have class soon, so it'll have to wait until later.

I skipped Glork, pablito, PJ, Yosarian2, and Zindaras, since they have a crapload of posts. Here's everyone else.

KaleiDoscope (Replacing Bird):

Day 2 -
- Suspicious of CDB and PJ, notes Pab/Glork connection and MoS trusting people early
- Suspicious of Pablito, CDB, and Pooky (and votes them), also somewhat suspicious of Fritz, Phoebus, and PJ (Gives reasoning)
- Undecided about LuckayLuck, thinks Glork's play is a little off, thinks MBL is town, also thinks Zindaras is town
- Unvotes CDB when Lowell replaces him
Day 3 -
- Votes Pablito
- Not convinced that MoS is scum yet, interested in MoS's replies
- Suspicious of Yos
- Not happy about MoS bandwagon
- Top 3: Pablito, Der Hammer, Phoebus

Result: I'm not seeing Kscope as particularly town or scum right now (OMG he placed him in his neutral category, scumbuddies LOLOLOL!). He has come a long way from Bird's behavior, but I would like to know what he thinks of Fritzler and PJ still. He named them on his suspicions list yesterday but hasn't touched them since, contenting with ONLY a Pablito vote until asked to give 3 suspects.

Lowell (Replacing CDB):

Day 2 -
- Declares Zindaras as most protown player so far, also MBL is high up there. Lists CTD as well. Phoebus and MoS considered protown, insinuates that MoS has attempted to become King. No opinion of Nightson or Pooky, neutral towards SV, neutralish towards PJ. Votes Yos, Pablito, and LuckayLuck with reasoning.
- Comes up with a plan to have the Kingmaker out themselves every day and act as proxy to the King, guaranteeing a protown executioner.
- Comes up with a plan to have everyone make a List of Good Kings for the Kingmaker to get ideas from.
- Wants to know how Glork narrowed his list to Yos and Pooky. Declares Kscope protown.
Day 3 -
- Confused as to choice of new King
- Asks King to help pressure the lurkers
- Thinks Glork is town (with reasoning)
- Votes SV and MoS, SV for freudian slip and MoS for recent efforts not seeming protownish. Thinks Rafk is town
- Votes CTD

Result: I'm getting a protown feel from Lowell. He's getting involved and presenting his own arguments for his suspicions. He also came up with two good plans that I didn't see before and apparently didn't get a lot of discussion. I see no reason why we shouldn't use the plans Lowell came up with. We need to implement them now, especially after we got a scummy person as king (Dead Rik). The Kingmaker could use input and reasoning as to who would make a good king.

Mert:

Day 1 -
- Votes CDB
- Speculates about good strategy for forming an LoE
- Votes MoS and Bird for their voting patterns
- Disagrees that parallels between CDB and RA from KM 1 point to CDB being town
- Votes Phoebus for not being helpful, unvotes MoS for being more vocal
- Wonders why pablito is acting so strange intentionally
Day 2 -
- Votes Twomz and Pooky for the nutkicking theory (supporting it)
- Asks for replacement

Results: Generally protownish feeling, nothing strong. He needs to be replaced.

Nightfall (Replacing UberTimmy):

Day 2 -
- 1 post, Dec. 16th.

Results: He needs to be replaced.

Nightson:

Day 1 -
- Votes pablito and phoebus, thinks cdb is town
- Defends reasoning for his votes
Day 2 -
- Votes Twomz for stuff lost in crash
- Thinks MBL, Glork, and PJ are town, not sure about Pablito
- Unvotes, has a problem with a Yos execution
- Votes pablito and MBL (for logical fallacies)
- Will reread (Dec 5)
- Will reread (Jan 3)
- Will reread (Jan 10)

Result: Needs to be replaced.

Olio:

Day 2 -
- Votes pablito, LuckayLuck, and Nightson
- Asks pablito why he voted him
Day 3 -
- Top 3 suspects: pablito, LuckayLuck, Nightson; SV and MoS are contenders for T3
- Votes MoS for changing his mind without explanations
- Thinks townies need to know why someone was lynched, not just who should be lynched.

Results: I'm neutral to Olio. He's done more than this, I just wrote what stood out to me. He hasn't done anything scummy.

Phoebus:

Day 1 -
- Votes MBL, CDB, and pablito
- Votes mert
- Gives reason for votes as joining bandwagons after reading
Day 2 -
- Doesn't like bird's opening post, votes Bird
- Votes pablito and Yosarian, gut reasoning
- Said he would be more active Day 3

Results: I believe he asked for replacement, but I feel that he was being genuine in his posts. I will have to see how his replacement does.

Samus:

Day 2 -
- Single post (Dec 16)

Results: He needs to be replaced, NOW

It's not hard to make a correct summary as scum. You merely restate facts that

anyone in the game can double check, so if you were wrong you'd be screwed

. Making a summary means nothing unless you state some opinions based on your summary and analyze it, something DR completely failed to do. His summary looks like an attempt to look protown without actually helping out very much, since anyone that had read the thread would know most of what he said anyways. He failed to make an LOE or execute someone because he went AFK from the site, not because he's protown. In fact, saying that he's protown because he failed to fulfill his duties as king makes no sense at all. Being away from the site has no indication of alignment. It simply means you're

gone

.

As for PJ, how can you call his reign as king very town-like, when he put someone on his LOE last minute and executed them before they had a chance to defend themselves. Deadline isn't much of an excuse, since it's his fault for putting them on the chopping block so close to deadline. That's hardly protown play. He may have made other actions that were protown, but his reign as king was definitely NOT a point in his favor.

I'd like to add LL to my top three list, making it DR/Smashy and LL (with PJ at a lesser third spot for now).

Smashy needs to be executed, see my previous reasoning.

I would also support a Fritzler execution.

I would suggest strongly considering a mnowax execution. Look back at his posts, he has posted pretty much all one-liners without contribution, voting people for no good reason. For the third time this game he has voted me, and his reasons for those votes are as follows:

Vote 1: No Reason Given
Vote 2: Shameless Bandwagoning
Vote 3: "i dunno but i guess"

His other votes (and the reasoning given) have been:

Dead Rikimaru - "kill anyone!"
Smashy - "DR was stalling too much"
pablito - "For getting me into this game with his sig!"
Smashy - "i thought Dead was scum, sorry"
Toaster Strudel - "i like pop tarts biatch!"

His only reasonable votes have been the ones on Smashy, and he's just taking other people's reasoning and then even acting like he's sorry for voting him. Really, if you think someone is scum, don't be sorry for voting their replacement. That's just silly.

It looks to me like mnowax is just posting enough to not be called a lurker, but not actually being useful in any way, shape, or form. He's also muddying things for our king by making it look like there is more suspicion on people than there really is, when he doesn't even really think that person is scum or have a reason to vote them.

I like a mnowax execution better than a Fritzler one, even.

I would strongly advise against any consideration of a Shanba execution in the near future.

I'm not satisfied by Kscope's response to Shanba, but I think we have scummier people than him to deal with at the moment.

NVM, Skruffs replaced after that happened. I forgive you.

I want to look more into mnowax2 (aka Battle Mage aka Smashy aka Dead Rikimaru) and Fritzler today. Since mnowax1 was protown, a lot of my suspicions connected to him are no longer valid. However, those two were near the top of my suspicions for other reasons, so I think they'd be a good execution today. I'll try to see who else looks scummy, although I probably won't have time until after Finals. We'll see.

Here is my earlier analysis of Fritzler:

Fritzler:
Day 1 -
- Asks pj to kill CTD
- Likes Mert
- Vouches for Pooky
- Wants CTD dead
- Agrees with Glork's CTD vote
- Asks why CTD isn't dead yet
- Votes CTD
- Agrees with Twomz's post that Fritzler is one of the funnier players in the game
- Says that SV confused pj with pooky about keyboard problems
- Asks if we can kill CTD now
- Says "duh" that he's protown, claims everything he says has intrinsic merit, says "duh" that he found something with CTD, fixes Glork's D1 suspicion list to only include CTD
- wants us to check out his sig
- Wants to know why CTD isn't on any of pj's lists for execution possibility
- Calls pj CTD's scumbuddy
Day 2 -
- Wants glork to reread CTD's posts quickly
- Says MBL being scum in the last mountainous game bodes ill for him this game
- Claims to be Pooky's scumbuddy
- Basically calls StallingChamp a hypocrit, for voting Pooky/Fritz/MoS for lack of content
- Calls StallingChamp a rookie that shouldn't speak
- Pointless response to co-mod post
- Asks Glork to kill either CTD or himself (Fritzler)
Day 3 -
- Asks why he isn't king, votes Nightson
- Claims that Yosarian, Spectrumvoid, Kscope are his top 3 suspects
- Says that Nightson shouldn't bother rereading because he's going to die
- Says he'd execute Glork if he was king
- Another pointless response to Mod

Result: What happened to CTD? Fritzler never gave a good reason to suspect him in the first place (And i think CTD has been fairly protown), but after Day 1 he only mentions him once, and by Day 3 he has whole new suspicions out of nowhere. This has parallels to my play this game, with the exception that I don't believe I have clamored for someone's death so adamantly, only to drop them out of existence. Also, for being so similar to my play this game, I don't think he's come under that much fire from other players beyond the occasional vote, whereas I have been attacked by the majority of the players in this game, nearly. I could see him as scum, or perhaps just lazy. Wouldn't mind seeing him hang.

More Result: Mentions CTD once more Day 3: "are we finally killing CTD?"
Only one post today, saying he disagreed with mnowax's post saying who he thought was scum. Don't wanna to a PBPA of what happened since my last one, but he hasn't dont anything useful or any sort of contribution since then, so I still think he's a probable scum sitting mostly under the radar.

VitaminR:

- Will reread
- Says he'll do a quicker reread since he was getting attacked
- Slight scum vibe against Dead Rikimaru
- At page 16, thinks SV and PJ are scum, Pablito and MoS town
- One of Rafk/KaleiDoscope is scum for jumping on the pooky wagon quickly
- Fritz is suspicious (w/ reasons), Zindie is protown
- Fritz is protown for actually participating. Undecided about PJ, votes SV, RafK, and Kscope. Don't execute MoS, VR, or Smashy, execute SV
- Thinks Pablito has been consistent and protown
- Likes Shanba's posts
- Wants to hear from Yos
- Doesn't want Yos to ignore SV
- Outlines reasons for SV vote
- Tries to explain his predecessors actions
- Responds to SV's responses, still wants her execution
- Asks Yos what he thinks of the SV case
- Says the SV is scummy because of a pattern, not a single scummy thing
- Explains his change of stance against Dead Rikimaru, emphasizes that he is not wishy washy about MoS being town
- Continues previous post
- Addresses PJ's points against him, posts analysis of DR/Smashy.
- Doesn't think Yos's position against him is justified
- Explains above post
- Explains vote on Rafk
- Explains vote on Kscope
- Elaborates on above post
- More argument with Yos and Rafk
- Unvotes Kscope
- Asks SV to respond to PJ's analysis
- Doesn't want a mnowax lynch, still wants SV dead
- Agrees with RafK's argument against Yos about VR suspicion
- Response to Yos
- Votes SV, likes RafK's recent posting, FoSs Yos
- Asks how Zindie is reminded of VR's Space Monkey playstyle

Results: I get a fairly good vibe from VitaminR. He's consistent and reasonable in his posts, I wouldn't want him executed any time soon. I do have a few questions for him, though.

VR, could you update us as to how you feel about the following people right now:

Dead Rikimaru/Smashy/BM/mnowax
PJ
Pablito
MoS
Kscope
RafK
Fritzler

Oops.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You are completely convinced I'm scum and I'm not, so I'm doing everything in my power to point out where you're wrong in your arguments so that you realize I'm not scum and can actually help us find the true scum.

Where are you looking for the real killers, OJ? On the golf course? I haven't seen a whole lotta scumhunting going on from you. I'm perfectly willing to consider other people as scum, please point me in the directions you think I should look, preferably with tangible votes. Instead, I'm wasting my time answering you.

That's

my problem, not that I think you're scum, but that I feel the need to waste my time answering you when I should be looking for your buddies.

Wait! You mean I haven't said who I thought should be executed today? :O Oh excuse me. I must be failing in my duty as a townsperson. Please hold while I go tell you who could be scum.

NVM, Skruffs replaced after that happened. I forgive you.

I want to look more into mnowax2 (aka Battle Mage aka Smashy aka Dead Rikimaru) and Fritzler today. Since mnowax1 was protown, a lot of my suspicions connected to him are no longer valid. However, those two were near the top of my suspicions for other reasons, so I think they'd be a good execution today. I'll try to see who else looks scummy, although I probably won't have time until after Finals. We'll see.

yea lowell's not a bad guy to look at today, either.

No, you're right Thesp. I haven't at all said who I thought was scum today. I must've been distracted with something today...You have my sincerest apologies.

[Thesp]

Hmm. I would have expected more with 85 pages. I'm disappointed. Still up for an MoS lynch.

[spectrumvoid]

Geez. Fascinating argument.

At this point, without going into an extensive quoting post like some recent posts... *ahem*,

vote: MoS

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL

[RafK]

Away from now on until Thursday 24th. Unfortunately don't have the time to thoroughly read the no doubt fascinating slap fight I see has taken place in the last day or two between ex-pablito and still-MOS; hoping to see a LOE by the time I get back to kick this day up a notch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ex-pablito...lol...can't you just call him Thesp?

[Toaster Strudel]

When is Zindaras expected to act on our recommendations? The populace is eager to see a head roll into a wicker basket.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zindie is neglecting this game

[Zindaras]

Zindie's long weekend off is being taken away by other occurences. I have been following the game (though I haven't taken the time yet to read the whole MoS-Thesp debate).

I'll execute someone when I feel the game isn't advancing anymore.

[VitaminR]

The first one. I'll come to the other ones later.

Okey doke. DR starts off the game very slowly, but by trying to draw a connection between Glork and Pablito. I remember a few people saying this made him look 'town', but I never really understood those sentiments – drawing connections is easy to do, and the fact that he labels the distancing technique as 'extreme' seems to indicate he knows it will be seen as unlikely, but thought he would throw it out there anyways. Slightly scummier than townie, so far as I'm concerned, but not a big indicator either way.

I had this in my notes too, actually. I agree with this.

DR constantly talks about how little time he has, and does things like *fainting* at 39 pages without offering commentary. Lazy/preoccupied at best, scummy at worst.

Laziness = scumminess fallacy. I don't see how it is a reliable indicator of alignment.

And then (I believe) he is made King – where he begins by stating he 'has a strategy', and saying the town should discuss while he's away. At this point, I can't tell if DR was just

really

busy, or if he was thinking "Oh jeez, I better make it sound like what I'm doing – I'll just post as little as often until I can think of something to do". I actually don't think his "everybody list their top 3 scum suspects" was all

too

bad of an idea, though he clearly should have been more attentive to the game to make sure this was actually going to happen.

Inactivity = scumminess fallacy. Same.

Neutral points for his resistance to lynching lurkers – I was originally going to give him slight pro-town points for this, but on reflection, it could be just as easy for this to have been a way to subtly push forcing his execution onto a scum-buddy. If this role dies, I will want to take a more critical look at the following players, since these were the lurkers in question:

{RafK [Mert], Cogito Ergo Sum [Samus/Twomz], Mnowax [CrashTextDummie], Der Hammer [Vaughn], Shanba [Nightfall/Ubertimmy], VitaminR [DragonsofSummer/Phoebus]}

You're setting yourself up to draw some big conclusions from something really minor here.

DR asks a few direct questions in very short posts for a while, which I suppose shows he was paying some attention, but on the other hand, it makes me wonder why he didn't really bother to comment on much himself. His 'strategy' seems very self-serving.

When he lists the "top 3" for all the players who participated, he doesn't really go into asking questions (which is something he seemed to infer he would be doing for much of the day).

... and DR keeps talking about how he doesn't have time, coworkers fired, he has a plan, etc etc. He makes a "map" in his Post 32. Impressive compilation, but I honestly don't care for it if he's not going to make

comments

on it. Anybody could summarize a game – what I would rather have seen were some actual opinions. The feeling I'm getting is that he kept asking others' for their opinions without actually giving any of his own, which strikes me as entirely hypocritical and a good way to stay in the shadows while technically being in the "spotlight".

Self-serving = scumminess fallacy. Why could a pro-town player not want to stay in the shadows, for instance? Yes, participating is the pro-town thing to do, but for the individual player selfishness can be a lot more effective.

Very short comments on everybody else, so those are difficult to analyze for the moment without looking at context. He makes his list between LL and SV; which I find a little odd, given that his comment on SV was:

spectrumvoid: I don't find SV's lack of voting Pooky that scummy given her explaination, except that Glork did give reasons, so out that point goes. There's also been a couple of slips.

Very vague, no explanation of 'slips', no big reason for why she was on the LoE at all. Granted, I still would have liked for her to be executed, but his explanations leave something to be desired. I (obviously) did not agree with the LL execution.

I don't really get what's scummy here. Vagueness isn't really a reason and I'm not sure what you mean with the top paragraph..

So, overall. Dead Rikimaru's constant lurking (to the point where his posts weren't even about what he was thinking, but instead explaining why he wasn't posting) is more scummy than townish. His 'strategy' which allowed him to not need to take stances while having everybody else commit to thinks was more scummy than townie, and I'm not overly impressed with his Carnie act.

One big poor contribution = scumminess fallacy.

BM has very little I can relate with, since he mostly seems to be taking positions as he deems necessary without really explaining how he came to those positions.

This is fair.

I can easily see him as scum – I wouldn't mind seeing him executed whatsoever.

I disagree strongly. It feels like you're conveniently jumping on a less experienced player who found himself in a position where he couldn't handle the responsibility.

[petroleumjelly]

You certainly like to throw around the word "fallacy" a lot. A fallacy is drawing a conclusion which cannot be drawn from a set of premises. An informal fallacy often addresses something other than the actual argument being made (such as attacking the person [ad hominem], appealing to authority, etc).

Every scumtell is based purely on inductive reasoning. There is no sure-fire scumtell - but there are tells which make people more likely to be town, and more likely to be scum. People are also not going to agree that the same thing is a scumtell. What you are calling fallacies are not fallacies. I'll address each "fallacy" in turn.

1.) "Laziness = Scumminess fallacy". My post explicitly mentions how DR simply *faints* about there being 39 pages and leaving it at that. He makes one of his few appearances to the thread, and the best contribution he has is to faint. We call that active lurking. That is lazy

at best

or scummy

at worst

. It certainly doesn't

make

him scum, but it does increase the chances, so far as I'm concerned.

2.) "Inactivity = Scumminess fallacy". Here I don't even believe you are fairly addressing my post. My point was that

as King

, he continually talked about "having a plan" and yet did not act on it. This looks like a prime example of stalling to me. I can accept that people at times cannot post as much as they would like, but he has no excuse for only coming by to say "I have a plan" and saying nothing of his suspicions.

3.) If somebody is a scumKing and

resistant

to executing lurkers, chances are at least one scum is going to turn out to be a lurker. If you want to dispute this one, be my guest, but I don't agree with you and I doubt many others would either.

And I actually think that is a fairly

small

conclusion, not a "large" conclusion. Saying at least 1 of 6 people are probably scum isn't exactly drastic.

4.) "Self-serving = Scumminess fallacy". This actually needs VitR's quote.

Why could a pro-town player not want to stay in the shadows, for instance?

Yes, participating is the pro-town thing to do, but for the individual player selfishness can be a lot more effective.

No,

no,

no

. When you are King, and entrusted with a day's execution, I don't give a flying flip if you "want to stay in the shadows". There is

no excuse

for somebody to be King, and for people to not know what they think. Especially when

he

is claiming to get everybody

else

giving opinions, he cannot sit idly by without sharing his

own

.

5.) What I meant was that if you read Smashy's Post 3 into the game, his comments on other players are short - meaning it's difficult to tell where he would have gotten a basis for any of his positions. The point here was that he put SV on the list, but in his only paragraph in the game mentioning her, he lists two reasons. The first he throws out the window ("out that point goes" is what he says), and the second only says there were a "few slips", which is completely noncommittal and I have no clue what he is referring to in particular. This is something which could easily serve as a "fill-in-the-blank" reasoning, so that if he had executed SV, he could come up with his "justification" for it later. I do

not

like it when people are overly vague, and in my experience, being overly vague

is

a scumtell, and a very reliable one at that (although moreso reliable when it comes to vague role-claims).

6.) "One Big Poor Contribution = Scumminess fallacy". You are mischaracterizing my post. When people try to make it look as if they are making a big contribution, when in fact they are saying nothing - that's a scumtell. DR's post looked

very

contributive, and helpful. But there was not a scrap of personal opinion in it. Those types of posts

are

scumtells in my opinion, and when it is compounded by the fact that DR also had not given much personal opinion throughout the course of the

entire game

, I certainly don't see this as an isolated incident (as is suggested by your specifying "one" big poor contribution), it is all the worse.

[Lowell]

In and out this game. I won't pretend to know everything that's going on. Particularly of late.

I agree w/ (part of) PBJs last post. I

much

more strongly suspect lurker-kings than active ones. WIFOM notwithstanding, I feel the temptation for scum kings to sit back and try not to reveal too many connections is just too great.

I'm sure I speak for others when I say I would like to hear

more

from the king, not less. This isn't a democracy, dammit, that's what makes it unique. Kings need to stop trying to win reelection.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I agree with PJ competly there.

Lurking is a minor scumtell, always, because scum get more advatange from lurking then town do. It's not a very reliable scumtell, because sometimes pro-town people either dont' have time or just lose interest, but it IS a scumtell.

Being "lazy", being an "active lurker", and trying to appear like you've contributed more then you actually have are all better scumtells then pure lurking; obveously the person is around, and obveously they havn't completly forgotten/ completly given up on the game, but they're not really interested in helping the town find scum. I consider that a pretty big scumtell.

And of course, the above two scumtells are much more serious coming from a king in a kingmaker game, because lack of activity from the king really hurts the town in a major way. Whenever a person does something that hurts the town, the odds of them being scum goes up.

And I'm especally confused by VitimanR's comment that a persn being "self serving" (IE: being more interested in keeping himself safe then in helping the town) is not a scum tell. How is that not a scum tell? "selfishness" or "keeping in the shadows" are signs that a person is more interested in keeping himself out of the spotlight then in finding scum or in moving the game foward, and that is something that makes sense for scum to do (all scum have to do is not get lynched and they win) but does not make sense for town to do (townie's don't want to get lynched, of course, but finding the scum is much more important then keeping yourself safe for a townie.) So yes, of course being "self serving" is a scumtell.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod, please prod Cogito Ergo Sum, ThAdmiral, and mnowax

Our king made requests of them and they haven't posted since then.

Yosarian2, Lowell, RafK (I know he's away for 2 more days) need to also fulfill the King's requests, instead of ignoring them.

Also, did anyone notice this?

mnowax1's last post:

Am I walking to the gallows?

Great and I liked this game a lot. I am town though, and you will find that out when i am killed. I don't believe Yos is scum for this though. My suspicions are definitely on MoS and BattleMage. Sorry man you replaced the scummiest person so far in this game. Final words of a Dead Man are true. I hope that my life will be for the good of the Kingdom. Long Live the King!

mnowax2's first post:

Vote MoS

I was quite suprized when i replaced battle mage what my role is now. I am still favoring a Master execution for the reasons that i have stated before. I am so far getting pro town vibes from Petrol-jelly

How did we go from:

Yosarian's
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 511#544511
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 820#548820

in which mnowax wasn't on the shortlist or the final List of Execution, to mnowax not only joining the list but becoming Yos' main target?

My feeling on mnowax remains as it was: I don't have a strong read on him, either way, but the way this day has turned around and zero'd on him makes me feel that he's being set up as a "safe" kill... there's not going to be much information from mnowax because not many people (if any) have taken really strong stands about him, but at the same time he hasn't done anything especially townie that makes him look like an insupportable choice.

I am particularly amazed after all that has happened that Yosarian hasn't put his money where his mouth is and put Phoebus' replacement front and center for the lynch. Perhaps he's not interested in proving himself wrong?


I point this stuff out, of course, because I think we're watching a scum King at work and I would like to make sure his tactics are not missed.

I agree with Rafk here i believe that i was being set up for a kill here. I dont believe that Yos was in on it, but i do believe that a lot of the people who were Trying to take me down were scum. The following votes were placed on me:

Fritzler
Shamba
Thadmiral
Thesp
Toaster Strudel
and our King, Zinderas

More to come.

So, mnowax1 was wrong about mnowax2 being scum, but obviously mnowax1's second top suspicion is clearly spot-on, right? Riiiigggghhhttt...

Oh, and I'm still waiting for mnowax2 to give reasons why I am scum. mnowax1 didn't have any reasons against me, and I will not accept "I agree with Thesp" as an argument against me. Come up with your own reasoning.