Kingmaker II-Game Over

[petroleumjelly]

The point is that although you looked back on Lowell to see if you would vote him (after you FoS'd him, mind you), you did not do the same for ThAdmiral who did the exact same thing the post before. That shows that your reaction changes when you are the person the comment is directed towards... hence why it

was

sparked by OMGUS.

[Yosarian2]

The point is that although you looked back on Lowell to see if you would vote him (after you FoS'd him, mind you), you did not do the same for ThAdmiral who did the exact same thing the post before. That shows that your reaction changes when you are the person the comment is directed towards... hence why it

was

sparked by OMGUS.

Except the admeral wasn't attacking anyone, he was just agreeing with my defense of myself. Why would I think that was scummy? I mean, I had thought my defense of myself made pretty good sense, I certanly am not going to think it's scummy if someone agrees with it.

Everyone keeps making this comparison, but it's a very bad one. How could The Admeral's post possibly be scummy in and of itself?

For reference:

I'm with yos on this one...

Which was said right after I defended myself.

Now, if the admiral was only making posts like that, sure, you could say it was scummy that he wasn't providing his own content, but from what I see he's stating his own opinions in other places.

So, if you people really think theadmeral's post is a scum tell, you're going to have to explain to me how it is, because I don't see it. If you people really don't think Lowell's post is a scum tell, again, you're going to have to explain why. Because right now, people just keep comparing apples and oranges and saying "Yosarian, why are you attacking oranges when you didn't attack apples?" Well, I like apples. (Actually, I like oranges too, but you get the idea.)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Did you also read further to see me explain this statement in response to PJ's observation, or are you doing selective reading?

Pardon me for thinking you were full of crap with that statement as well. (I think my argument was a stronger version of PJ's, FYI.)

Even if you thought it was crap, you still failed to address it. Also note that I have since then re-addressed it to answer your specific "version" of the argument.

My playstyle in general bothers a lot of people. That doesn't make me scum.

I agree. It's your role PM that makes you scum.

I repeat. When's the last time you've seen a game where I was scum?

Am I to assume that you then agree with my answers to the rest of your points since you saw fit to not respond to them?

[petroleumjelly]

I don't think either post was a scumtell, per se. They were both posts agreeing with other people - everybody has them. It may be scummier if taken in context of that players usual posting style or the posting they have displayed throughout the course of the game, but you did not (at the time) look over ThAdmiral's posts, but you did look at Lowell's posts. It appears (as is implied by your last post) that you have since looked at ThAdmiral's posts, but the thing people are pointing out is that at the time your first reaction was to only look at Lowell.

And I have

also

said I don't think that's a scumtell - I also tend to be warier of people who say they agree with a case on me or claim to find me scummy, and that is probably true of most players. But denying that OMGUS doesn't play a part in that does not strike me as truthful.

Yes, Lowell

could

have gone into more detail about where and why he agreed with RafK and did not agree with you: but ThAdmiral

also

could have explained where and why he did not agree with RafK, and why he agreed with you. However, you did not ask ThAdmiral these questions - as you did for Lowell.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, let me try to explain this, one more time.

A: Attacks person B
B: Defends himself
C: Agrees with person B
D: Agrees with person A

Now, this is how I see it, in general:

A: Attacks person B<------ Not a scumtell to start an attack on someone
B: Defends himself<------ Not a scumtell to defend yourself
C: Agrees with person B<------ Not generally a scumtell to like somone else's defense; nothing inherently scummy about it.
D: Agrees with person A<-------Scumtell. It's a scumtell to quietly throw your support behind a bandwagon, while hiding behind someone else's arguments. It's actually quite a good scumtell, and something scum do often, because it's a way to get townies lynched without sticking your own neck out. It's one of the oldest and most reliable scumtells.

And to make the scumtell complete, notice the way he backed away from his support when I called him on it, even though he's been going after me in subtle ways for quite a while now. I've got a really strong feelng that he's scum that expects me to be lynched soon and dosn't want to be blamed for it afterwards.

So, no. The whole claim that EVERYONE keeps making that "There's no reason to attack person D if you didn't attack person C!" is completly bunk. Person D committed a scumtell, person C did not. The fact that several people keep repeating this piece of crap logic, while ignoring everything else scummy about Lowell's behavior so far this game and focusing in on that one minor point, is really making me wonder.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree with Yos xD

[spectrumvoid]

VitaminR did post in V/LA thread about recent inactivity.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Sorry for the lurking. Still here, supporting a Mnowax lynch. Also happy with a Fritz lynch.

[VitaminR]

Dead Rikimaru/Smashy/BM/mnowax: He still strikes me as town. As I've said, his helplessness as king seemed more sincere than scummy.

PJ: I don't trust PJ in this game. I disagree with his analysis. In general, I think the people he's suspicious of are pro-town and his Day 1 foray into kingdom led to a bad execution. Also don't like his Pooky switch. As a matter of fact,

Vote: petroleumjelly

.

Pablito: Pablito struck me as town. Very prolific and opinionated. I also like Thesp's contributions.

MoS: I think MoS is town. Too opinionated and deliberate in how unhelpful he can be.

Kscope: My suspicions of him were mostly based on the actions of Mert. Kscope himself hasn't done much to rattle my scumdar.

RafK: I like RafK's recent posts and I agree with a lot of his analysis. I still think one of these could easily be scum, based on the Pooky votes of their predecessors, but I couldn't really point at which one.

Fritzler: I think Fritz is pro-town, but I find him difficult to judge as a player.

[spectrumvoid]

DR etc: What helplessness? He basically didn't do anything other than add a summary? Without any analysis whatsoever.

Could you clarify on which parts of PJ's analysis you disagree with? Do you think the people he's suspicious of are pro-town? He was suspicious of me... and you're suspicious of me too, weren't you?

MoS: That's the too scummy to be scum fallacy.

Sorry, I keep delaying looking at the people I said I was going to look at... trying to work up some enthusiasm to plow through some 30 pages or so.

[VitaminR]

I don't see the too scummy to be scum theory as a fallacy. I'll specify what I disagree with in PJ's posts. I did say "in general." I am still suspicious of you. DR's seeming inability to analyse the game is what I was referrring to with "helplessness."

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Kscope: My suspicions of him were mostly based on the actions of Mert. Kscope himself hasn't done much to rattle my scumdar

Who's Mert?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you think Fritzler is protown, VitaminR?

[Zindaras]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Sorry for the lurking. Still here, supporting a Mnowax lynch. Also happy with a Fritz lynch.[/quote]

Do you realize that mnowax was killed yesterday and is now a new player?

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Yes. Have you been paying attention yesterday? I was taunting to kill Rikku, who is now Mnowax

[Thesp]

Even if you thought it was crap, you still failed to address it. Also note that I have since then re-addressed it to answer your specific "version" of the argument.

I don't feel like making everyone else wade through crap all the time. I think it's less significant than other things that could be said, and enough was said for people to make up their minds about it without me saying, "I disagree".

I repeat. When's the last time you've seen a game where I was scum?

What's the significance of this question? Am I unqualified to think of you as scum if I've not read a game with you as scum? Am I privy to special and helpful information if I have?

Am I to assume that you then agree with my answers to the rest of your points since you saw fit to not respond to them?

No, I just don't feel like getting into the online verbal equivalent of a slap-fight. I disagree with you and think you're lying about your motivations. You think I'm mistaken or being deceitful. I'm not sure where we go from there. I suspect that even if I were to convince you that you were scum (perhaps you'd forgotten what your role PM said), you wouldn't assent to it. There were two things I'd been pondering on, which I felt like commenting on since -

And? I know how it sucks to replace someone who was being scummy and was actually town. It fucking blows. So here I am, trying to be nice about it and let people get by on their own merits. That's not such a bad thing, is it?

(A similar argument may have been brought up, or it may have been poor recollections of my mind imagining this argument as I read.) What you are trying to do here is eliminate tools we have for finding scum. Suppose a player had said, "I'm scum. I'm scummity scum scum scum." Suppose, for a moment, we believe such a statement to be an indication of being scum. Then, said player leaves the site after an answer is demanded of his replacement. What you are to suggest in such a situation is that we ignore the actions of the predecessor, which are clearly helpful in lynching correctly. The replacement may not be able to answer why his predecessor went crazy, but he does indeed have the same role, regardless.

I am not intimating that such slam-dunk cases exist here, but certainly those tools are available, and to actively discourage use of them is anti-town. It remains to be seen whether it is borne of scummy motivation, but I suspect it is. I feel like it was said to pre-empt an attempt to examine a scumbuddy on the basis of his scummy predecessor. I am uncertain of whom it might be, but I would be very keen on examining more closely should you turn up scum.

Erm, how is my playstyle "overly vague"? You're just talking out of your ass, now. My very first post explained my playstyle pretty clearly.

I find it fascinating that you claim to have a nigh unreadable alignment and are constantly misunderstood, and simultaenously assert that your suspicions and lynch desires are evident. Suppose for a moment you are making a serious inquiry of another player, in trying to divine their motive. It is not clear as to whether or not you suspect them. Should they turn up scum, it seems you'd be able to point to this interaction and assert, "I was suspicious of them", and should they turn up town, assert, "I was trying to determine their townieness". It allows you to prod scumbuddies fairly openly, allowing them the opportunity to receive in-thread correction about possible scummy indicators, while allowing you the levity to not be pinned on it one way or the other (or worse, be credited one way or the other). Votes and FOS'es are significant because they're

tangible

. They give us further markers to examine player interactions. In an essentially mountainous game, the fact that you flatly want to deny such player interactions is telling to me.

Now, you have every right to say, "Nuh uh", as you likely will (I would), but please understand if I don't believe what you say. I don't mind hearing what you have to say if you feel so inclined to do so, but also don't assume that simply answering my assertions makes them go away as if you are correct. I'm not going to have a contest to see who can answer the most, but you can bet I'll answer if I feel it'll be worthwhile to read. (And I have the time/energy at that moment. )

Ok, let me try to explain this, one more time.

A: Attacks person B
B: Defends himself
C: Agrees with person B
D: Agrees with person A

Now, this is how I see it, in general:

A: Attacks person B<------ Not a scumtell to start an attack on someone
B: Defends himself<------ Not a scumtell to defend yourself
C: Agrees with person B<------ Not generally a scumtell to like somone else's defense; nothing inherently scummy about it.
D: Agrees with person A<-------Scumtell. It's a scumtell to quietly throw your support behind a bandwagon, while hiding behind someone else's arguments. It's actually quite a good scumtell, and something scum do often, because it's a way to get townies lynched without sticking your own neck out. It's one of the oldest and most reliable scumtells.

And to make the scumtell complete, notice the way he backed away from his support when I called him on it, even though he's been going after me in subtle ways for quite a while now. I've got a really strong feelng that he's scum that expects me to be lynched soon and dosn't want to be blamed for it afterwards.

This is excellent. That being said, I'm still not sold on Lowell as scum, I have him as far more likely to be town than most players.

I don't see the too scummy to be scum theory as a fallacy.

I see signs of it, though I think it's overrated as a "fallacy" and is starting to be as overused as WIFOM is.

[Yosarian2]

This is excellent. That being said, I'm still not sold on Lowell as scum, I have him as far more likely to be town than most players.

Interesting. Why?

[Thok]

Official vote count

King Zindaras (0):

Cogito Ergo Sum (0):
Der Hammer (1):
Fritzler (1):
KaleiÐoscøpe (0): mnowax, Fritzler
Lowell (1):
Mastermind of Sin (3):
mnowax (2): (MOS)
petroleumjelly (1): mnowax, SV, VitaminR
RafK (0): Yosarian2, SV
spectrumvoid (5):
ThAdmiral (0):
Thesp (0): MOS, SV, Der Hammer
Toaster Strudel (0): MOS, SV
VitaminR (1): SV, PetroleumJelly
Yosarian2 (1): Lowell

[Toaster Strudel]

Thesp is a genius. I am in awe.

I am disappointed that his latest missive didn't end with a vote.

Cuz I would have voted anyone Thesp voted for, after such an eloquent discourse.

[Thesp]

Interesting. Why?

You'll love this. My notes only have three +'s (which are good), for, and I am not making this up, "Seems townie-ish", "More townieness", and "Marks Kaleidoscope as town" (which happened at a point I would have thought disadvantageous for scum to do for a townie, and too blatant for scum to do for a scumbuddy). There are more people whomI have stronger (or even only vague) suspicions of I'd rather pursue. Like MoS.

Thesp is a genius. I am in awe.

I am disappointed that his latest missive didn't end with a vote.

Cuz I would have voted anyone Thesp voted for, after such an eloquent discourse.

Thanks! I would have voted, but I'm already voting for MoS. You could do the same.

Oh, you are.

*hifive*

You could throw a vote on MoS's buddy, Der Hammer.

[Fritzler]

Why do you think Fritzler is protown, VitaminR?

probably because i am

i agree with killing mnowax again

[Mastermind of Sin]

Even if you thought it was crap, you still failed to address it. Also note that I have since then re-addressed it to answer your specific "version" of the argument.

I don't feel like making everyone else wade through crap all the time. I think it's less significant than other things that could be said, and enough was said for people to make up their minds about it without me saying, "I disagree".

I find it very hard to believe that you could completely disagree with my response, unless of course you are making the mistake of assuming I am scum and basing your responses off the assumed fact that I am scum.

I repeat. When's the last time you've seen a game where I was scum?

What's the significance of this question? Am I unqualified to think of you as scum if I've not read a game with you as scum? Am I privy to special and helpful information if I have?

Yes to the second question.

Am I to assume that you then agree with my answers to the rest of your points since you saw fit to not respond to them?

No, I just don't feel like getting into the online verbal equivalent of a slap-fight. I disagree with you and think you're lying about your motivations. You think I'm mistaken or being deceitful. I'm not sure where we go from there. I suspect that even if I were to convince you that you were scum (perhaps you'd forgotten what your role PM said), you wouldn't assent to it. There were two things I'd been pondering on, which I felt like commenting on since -

I don't particularly feel you are being deceitful. I'm not sure where you picked that up from, I haven't tried to attack you in any way since you started attacking me.

And? I know how it sucks to replace someone who was being scummy and was actually town. It fucking blows. So here I am, trying to be nice about it and let people get by on their own merits. That's not such a bad thing, is it?

(A similar argument may have been brought up, or it may have been poor recollections of my mind imagining this argument as I read.) What you are trying to do here is eliminate tools we have for finding scum. Suppose a player had said, "I'm scum. I'm scummity scum scum scum." Suppose, for a moment, we believe such a statement to be an indication of being scum. Then, said player leaves the site after an answer is demanded of his replacement. What you are to suggest in such a situation is that we ignore the actions of the predecessor, which are clearly helpful in lynching correctly. The replacement may not be able to answer why his predecessor went crazy, but he does indeed have the same role, regardless.

If someone did something like that I would vote them regardless of replacement. However, when the only previous actions are slightly scummy or not at all, I much prefer to give the person a relatively clean slate, because it's bullshit to ask them to explain why the person they replaced did something slightly scummy.

I am not intimating that such slam-dunk cases exist here, but certainly those tools are available, and to actively discourage use of them is anti-town. It remains to be seen whether it is borne of scummy motivation, but I suspect it is. I feel like it was said to pre-empt an attempt to examine a scumbuddy on the basis of his scummy predecessor. I am uncertain of whom it might be, but I would be very keen on examining more closely should you turn up scum.

I won't, you'll be sorely disappointed.

Erm, how is my playstyle "overly vague"? You're just talking out of your ass, now. My very first post explained my playstyle pretty clearly.

I find it fascinating that you claim to have a nigh unreadable alignment and are constantly misunderstood, and simultaenously assert that your suspicions and lynch desires are evident. Suppose for a moment you are making a serious inquiry of another player, in trying to divine their motive. It is not clear as to whether or not you suspect them. Should they turn up scum, it seems you'd be able to point to this interaction and assert, "I was suspicious of them", and should they turn up town, assert, "I was trying to determine their townieness". It allows you to prod scumbuddies fairly openly, allowing them the opportunity to receive in-thread correction about possible scummy indicators, while allowing you the levity to not be pinned on it one way or the other (or worse, be credited one way or the other). Votes and FOS'es are significant because they're

tangible

. They give us further markers to examine player interactions. In an essentially mountainous game, the fact that you flatly want to deny such player interactions is telling to me.

So, you're asserting that I haven't been clear in who I wanted executed, I haven't ever said something to the effect of "we should execute x", and I haven't ever proclaimed that I thought someone was protown? Votes are not the only way to indicate how you feel about someone. If you can prove that I've done none of the above (all of which are just as tangible as a vote or FoS), then maybe you have a case. Maybe.

Now, you have every right to say, "Nuh uh", as you likely will (I would), but please understand if I don't believe what you say. I don't mind hearing what you have to say if you feel so inclined to do so, but also don't assume that simply answering my assertions makes them go away as if you are correct. I'm not going to have a contest to see who can answer the most, but you can bet I'll answer if I feel it'll be worthwhile to read. (And I have the time/energy at that moment. )

Yet another indication that you are operating on the

assumption

that I am scum. You have convinced yourself that I am scum, so no amount of reasonable posting by myself can convince you otherwise.

[Thok]

Der Hammer has yet to pick up my prod. I'm giving him until the end of the week until I replace him.

[petroleumjelly]

Dead Rikimaru/Smashy/BM/mnowax: He still strikes me as town. As I've said, his helplessness as king seemed more sincere than scummy.

PJ: I don't trust PJ in this game. I disagree with his analysis.

In general, I think the people he's suspicious of are pro-town

* and his Day 1 foray into kingdom led to a bad execution. Also don't like his Pooky switch. As a matter of fact, Vote: petroleumjelly.

A.) *Bolded for emphasis

The people I am most suspicious of:

1.) spectrumvoid, who VitaminR is voting
2.) VitaminR (replacing DoS/Phoebus)
3.) mnowax (replacing Dead Rikimaru)

Clearly, VitaminR, you are not going to agree with my on my suspicions of you - which leaves two people for you to disagree with: spectrumvoid and mnowax. As is indicated by your vote, you agree with my suspicions on spectrumvoid. The only place you can disagree with here is mnowax.

And as far as your explanation, I don't find much 'sincere' in his Dead Rikimaru's posting whatsoever. He completely held back from giving opinions of his own while he was king - instead, he asked everybody to supply him with things, and then he made a giant list

without commenting on it

(something I have considered a scumtell for quite some time, and I still think it a very telling one).

There is nothing "helpless" about the situation - he had the time, he had the power, and he kept teasing us along with the "I have a plan, I have a plan, give me time, I know what I'm doing"-attitude. In the end he did nothing. The "inability" to analyze a game is

not

being helpless. He

had

the ability, and chose not to use it, so far as I'm concerned. He threw out excuse after excuse, and

when he had the chance

to make comments, he instead draw up a giant post detailing everything that happened in the game. He was basically just a secretary compiling things, and making as few personal comments as possible.

You also say you disagree with my analysis. Which one? I've posted several. In the past two days, I have posted

six

separate analyses on six separate players, and there are still analyses which predate those. I am quite interested to hear the specifics.

-----

I am also fine with Yos2's response, though I don't think it's an incredibly strong 'tell' either way - for example, I can more than easily see scum being in either position C or position D (or positions A/B, for that matter). Buddying up, lowering your guard, having something to point back to later ("hey look, I was right!"), etc. could all be motivations for position C. In addition, there are plenty of townspeople who are just going to pop in and say "I agree with so-and-so", regardless of whether or not this is a personal attack against somebody else, a defense, a theoretical points, etc.

Furthermore, I also have Lowell marked in light green in my notes from what appears to be very early on in the game - when cardb0ardb0x had his role and had the meltdown which ended with a townie claim. I have also had some past experience with Lowell (Wheel of Time Mafia and 2-Headed Mafia come immediately to mind), both games where he was town and both games his play did not impress me in the least. I am more willing to give him a wider scope than other players due to this personal background, as well as the game-related history of cb0x.

[Toaster Strudel]

OMG PJ is a genius too. I am sorry but I must defer to brains that are so much more sophisticated and better irrigated than the bean-sized, oxygen-starved bit of grey matter tightly housed in my thick skull.

vote: Der Hammer

- secret handshake with Thesp, I will never wash hands again.

vote: spectrumvoid
vote: VitaminR
vote: mnowax

Love you PJ.