Mini 1582: Formerfish's First Foray (Game Over)

[Octopus]

Snip->

I think the mechanics of the doublevoting role are of interest to legitimate townies, because I could also believe that a scum would fake an unconfirmable/unconfirmed doublevoting role to get conftown status, to comment on the discussion in #121

Missed this last time, another person who isn't following the game.

[Formerfish]

Vote Count 1.7

OkaPoka

- massive, Grib, Grib, Drew-Sta (L-3)
bjc- I Love Fairies, Boonskiies, OkaPoka (L-4)
I Love Fairies- bjc, theelkspeaks (L-5)
theelksspeaks- KittyMo (L-6)
Boonskiies- Octopus (L-6)

Not Voting: shinyskarmory, Shinobi

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes for a lynch
(expired on 2014-07-03 00:22:00)

[massive]

I think the mechanics of the doublevoting role are of interest to legitimate townies, because I could also believe that a scum would fake an unconfirmable/unconfirmed doublevoting role to get conftown status, to comment on the discussion in #121

While I'm not sure that I believe a scum could logically fake a doubleclaim successfully, it doesn't matter -- as I mentioned earlier, every single question you could have about whether the role is real (and if so, how it works) would be quickly divulged just as a matter of Grib posting in the game. Once we see that Grib's votes are being counted (#25) then you pretty much have everything you need to know as a townie. Even if you're a townie and you're

super curious

, you should know that revealing too much about the PR or focusing too much on it just gives information to the scum, and the more information they get, the better informed they are to make their kills.

[bjc]

vote: Oka

[OkaPoka]

Reasoning there, scum?

[bjc]

You're probably scum.

[Boonskiies]

Snip->

I think the mechanics of the doublevoting role are of interest to legitimate townies, because I could also believe that a scum would fake an unconfirmable/unconfirmed doublevoting role to get conftown status, to comment on the discussion in #121

Missed this last time, another person who isn't following the game.

Good arguments...

[Boonskiies]

Idk why it quoted. I didn't mean for it too. My phone...

[I Love Fairies]

@ILF:

Snip->

Asking "why" is why people had so much suspicion on me in the first place. I keep referring back to the post where I actually voted. That was my reasoning for thinking Kitty to be slightly more scummy than other people (and slightly more scummy = more likely to be mafia, in my eyes). However, I was incorrect with my analysis of her possible motivations and (unless she's lying) I'm in full agreeance that her explained reasoning is indeed townish.

Snip->

What I'm trying to understand here is what Drew-Sta pointed out, although really badly. If it's scummy to jump on a random band wagon then logically Boon was more scummy than Kitty. Boon 'randomly' placed Kitty on 3 votes (L-4), whereas Kitty moved you up to 2 votes (L-5, hardly a wagon). With your stated reason for voting why did you therefore find Kitty scummier than Boon? And didn't Grib do exactly the same as Kitty?

Ohhhhhhhhhh, is this what everyone is confused on with me? I never said that Boon was not scummy at all, but the reason that I found him less so than Kitty at the time is because Kitty had already voted randomly, she voted Massive in her opening post. Switching that vote to me said to me that it was not a random vote (because why switch from one random vote to another one without even joke reasoning?). Boon voted on Kitty when she had votes as well, but given that it was his first post, it could have been reasoned that it was indeed just a random/joke vote. It was Kitty switching her vote that raised red flags in my mind.

Grib did a similar thing as Kitty, yes, but Grib accompanied that vote with a question directed at Kitty that implied Grib found Kitty's actions up to that point scummy. In hindsight, I should have been suspicious of Grib on that point as well, but I suppose I did tunnel a little.

Put more simply, I found Grib's posts to be town (because of the questions in post 22), Boon to be null (because I figured one of two things: it was a random vote, or Boon was following Grib), and Kitty to be scummy (because of the switched vote [indicating less than random reasoning] without reason).

@Drewsta in 173: Since I didn't seem to be clear about my vote on bjc, let me explain a little in depth as to why I voted him:

1. He's a liability to the town
2. A bandwagon on me is still viable and I prefer the bjc bandwagon over my own (obviously)
3. I HATE how he plays and I honestly feel like people who refuse to contribute in games just so no one can get reads on them is against the spirit of the game and just makes the game worse and thus, should be policy lynched
4. His claim was obvscum to me. Let's look at his motivations for his claim:
a. He's VT, maybe he's trying to redirect NKs to him. Why I think this is bullshit: because if a VT wants to redirect NKs to themself, they should act like an obvious TPR without going so far as to make it obvious that they're not a VT by claiming (because a TPR wouldn't claim so early because they don't want to die because TPRs are valuable)
b. He's TPR, maybe he was just trying to keep himself alive because he's aware that TPRs are valuable. Why I think this is bullshit: He was not close to being lynched. There was no need for him to do anything to keep himself alive besides maybe participate more. If he actually was TPR, he'd care about keeping himself alive enough to actually participate in the game to prevent a lynch on himslef.
c. He's some sort of role that benefits from being NKed, which would explain why he claimed TPR, because he was trying to make himself a target. Why I think this is bullshit: The correct play here would be to attempt to portray himself as a TPR without making it obvious that he's not actually a TPR (well, he would be in this case, but he wants the NK, so he's trying to get NKed). So basically, his actions should be what actions he would take as a VT. I don't buy this one bit.
d. He's scum, he wants everyone to back off of him and he knows he won't be NKed because he's the one doing the NKs. Why I'm now a little skeptical on this: if he's scum, he should be aware that his action was pretty stupid as both scum and town. If we assume he's intelligent, he shouldn't fall into the trap he made himself.
e. He's a jester, he wants to get lynched, and knows that making a play completely awful for town will get him lynched, especially if he was already a liability. Why I'm concerned about this: I hadn't considered this option prior to writing this all out. However, I don't know how likely a jester actually is, would someone with more experience tell me how likely it is we have a jester?
5. His overall lack of a defense makes me think that he honestly doesn't care. Maybe that's not alignment indicative, maybe this should fit into reason 1, but still, this point angers me.
6. I'm currently town reading everyone but him, and since he's the odd one out in this case, I don't know who else to vote. This is my fault though, I've been super busy recently and I haven't had the time to put as much effort into this game as I began to do in my previous two games (the two games before I was new and lost and didn't really contribute all too much [still more than bjc]).

Also, Grib, what do you think of the bjc wagon, besides "lazy"?

[I Love Fairies]

^^^ Sorry for the unreadability, I was planning on formatting that, but I forgot.

[bjc]

o she mad

[shinyskarmory]

Just took a look at Oka's posts in isolation.

While Oka has posted a lot more often then me, his posts contain much less content. He hasn't posted more then one or two sentences in any post he's made and a lot of them have pretty much no potential for discussion creation at all (see his fourth, fifth, and eighth posts).

I want to see some actual content (i.e reads on at least a few players) from him in the next 24-36 hours or I'll put my vote on.

[bjc]

vote: Shiny

[OkaPoka]

Wow.

So now posting not much is scummy?

Day 1 is harder to mass produce content. I am better with a lynch, or when stuff happens.

[bjc]

No one gives a crap about mass production of content. No need to justify everything with "I am better with a lynch, or when stuff happens."

[I Love Fairies]

o she mad

People wanted justification. I gave justification. And yes, I am a little angry.

Wow.

So now posting not much is scummy?

Day 1 is harder to mass produce content. I am better with a lynch, or when stuff happens.

Yes, lurking is scummy.

[OkaPoka]

I ain't lurking.

I am questioning and doing what I am asked. Not walling everywhere is NOT scummy. Sometimes, especially day 1, walling is completely unnecessary.

[bjc]

Scum can be active
walls walls walls walls walls walls walls
I am not scum, town.

[massive]

Really,

ILF

? You're reading town on everyone

except

bjc?

There's a big difference between being unhelpful to the town, and being scum.

And since you've only played two newbie games here, I'm really curious who brought up "Jester" in one of those games.

[shinyskarmory]

Wow.

So now posting not much is scummy?

Day 1 is harder to mass produce content. I am better with a lynch, or when stuff happens.

I literally opened that post by saying that you posted a lot more often then me. I don't care much about posting frequency (lurking can be for any number of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with the game at all). I care about content, and you haven't posted much of that at all. You don't need to post walls every post either, just post some reads or analysis.

Literally everyone is better after a lynch/daykill/whatever because it gives them something to react to and reevaluate their original reads with. That's no excuse for not trying. As a villager, I would rather see you post three to four reads (or analysis that's wildly off-base) and have every single one turn out wrong then have you sit there posting no reads and no analysis. When you post reads that later end up being incorrect, the village can analyze those reads, try to figure out your thought process, and maybe gain some information that could be useful to them. If you don't post any reads or analysis, then not only do you slow the village down in life, you prevent them from gaining information from your death.

(the above, by the way, is why lurking is considered a scumtell by most mafia players)

I ain't lurking.

I am questioning and doing what I am asked. Not walling everywhere is NOT scummy. Sometimes, especially day 1, walling is completely unnecessary.

You're not asking all that many questions, at least not ones that promote discussion.

Nobody is asking for a wall. We're asking for the bare minimum of village effort: that you choose three or four players and tell us what you think of them. On Day 3 or 4, if you're still around, nobody will give a crap about your reads on Day 1. The reason we care about them now is because

on day 1, reads and RVS reactions are literally all we have to go on.

Scum can be active
walls walls walls walls walls walls walls
I am not scum, town.

Since you don't seem to like long posts, let me make this in a nice, fast, easily-digestible form.

For the village, more information>>>less information
Active players interact more with other players, which=more information
passive players interact less with other players, which=less information

Therefore, active players>>>passive players, and pressing people to contribute>>>letting people get by with one liners.

As I've said many times over the course of this post, nobody is asking for a wall, unless your definition of a wall is "a paragraph or two long".

[I Love Fairies]

Played 4 games. I read a game offsite, and they mentioned A LOT of roles. I mean, they had like, 30 people in one game.

[Octopus]

@ILF:

Thanks for clearing that up, makes sense.

... I don't know how likely a jester actually is, would someone with more experience tell me how likely it is we have a jester?

Jester is considered to be a bastard role on this site, the chances of it being used in a normal game are close to non-existent.

@shinysk:

I asked you a question in #119 can you answer it please.

[Octopus]

I hate it when I loose some of my post. I'll try again.

Ohhhhhhhhhh, is this what everyone is confused on with me?

I never said that Boon was not scummy at all,

but the reason that I found him less so than Kitty at the time is because Kitty had already voted randomly, she voted Massive in her opening post. Switching that vote to me said to me that it was not a random vote (because why switch from one random vote to another one without even joke reasoning?). Boon voted on Kitty when she had votes as well, but given that it was his first post, it could have been reasoned that it was indeed just a random/joke vote. It was Kitty switching her vote that raised red flags in my mind.

Grib did a similar thing as Kitty, yes, but Grib accompanied that vote with a question directed at Kitty that implied Grib found Kitty's actions up to that point scummy. In hindsight, I should have been suspicious of Grib on that point as well, but I suppose I did tunnel a little.

Put more simply, I found Grib's posts to be town (because of the questions in post 22),

Boon to be null

(because I figured one of two things: it was a random vote, or Boon was following Grib), and Kitty to be scummy (because of the switched vote [indicating less than random reasoning] without reason).

So you did or didn't find Boon to be scummy?

[massive]

Can we please get back to lynching OkaPoka who went from pestering our first outted PR (#93, #104, #136) to voting for our second outted potential PR (#157, #163)?

[I Love Fairies]

Hindsight, I think you're right and Boon looked a little scummy. At the time, I did not find him to be scummy. Now, I'm leaning more towards scum on him than most other people.

I have to teach in half an hour, so idk when I'll be back, but I don't really have the time (or the energy to spare) to analyze the game much as of right now.