Open 560: Tit for Tat (Game Over, 4/12 alive)


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Post Post #175 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:30 pm

Post by Justin Playfair »

A few early things...

I choose
B
.
In post 77, Tammy wrote:Hmm...

Oh justin is your avatar from the hush episode?
Nope, it's from season seven when Giles was trying to train the new slayers about the bringers. Here, of course, he's instructing us on how to recognize scum. And Tammy, hope you stay in, I watch Buffy with my kids about once a year. But, and please forgive me for my ignorance, could you explain why I should see you almost as an innocent child?

In post 113, Riddleton wrote:If he did this on purpose, why would he do so? In other words, why would he intentionally make himself look like mafia before the game has even started?
That would be stupid playing to say the least.
Maybe so that people would say "TSO would never do that if he was scum". In his own post he's pointed out that...
In post 100, T S O wrote:I've made out large cases and relentlessly tunnelled on Town as scum.
...which would also tend to antagonize his target and draw attention to him.

In post 100, T S O wrote:Do you think that scum normally do nothing?

Do you think that the more you do, the less likely scum you are?

Do you think scum frame questions so as to avoid the area where they perceive themselves to be vulnerable? I do. And the heart of what Krystal seemed to be trying to get at (Krystal, please correct me if I'm wrong) was the much milder tone you adopted as soon as the game began, as opposed to your previous more caustic behavior. Now I'm pretty old school but I do like inconsistent behavior within the same game as a possible indication that someone is scum.

That said, wildly exaggerating behavior you've found suspicious when placed under pressure...
In post 109, Krystal Bald wrote:I was actually thinking that his play after the game started has been anti-antagonistic. So far he's placed a random vote on a player not in the game and done nothing else but defend himself, despite posting like over a bajillion times.
...doesn't sit well with me either. This is not an accurate representation of TSO's behavior. At the point when this post was made TSO had posted 10 times after the game started. Three of these posts were nonsense/opening business. Three of these posts, all made after your initial case, could be classified as defense. Four of these posts, in a mild, early game manner, could be described as investigative. That's ten posts out of 109, which would also indicate that his posting activity was not too far out of line with the average, especially considering that I hadn't posted at all until now.


Riddle...
In post 105, Riddleton wrote:From my viewpoint, it sounded like a quick bandwagon. From the mafia games I played, mafioso don't like drawing attention to themselves. They would rather just go along with the crowd in order to not raise any questions. I found your question odd which is why I voted for you.
You'll only catch bad scum that way, and you'll catch a lot of timid/disconnected town along the way. On this topic, though...
In post 113, Riddleton wrote:If he did this on purpose, why would he do so? In other words, why would he intentionally make himself look like mafia before the game has even started?
That would be stupid playing to say the least.
Riddle
, can you explain to me in what way TSO's pregame tomfoolery made him look like mafia? What about the manner in which he behaved would indicate that he was scum?

This is a terrible post:
In post 114, HGH7193 wrote:Here is the order of how I'm going to vote.

1. Riddleton
2. Krysrtal Bald
3. Not_Mafia
4. T S O

Official Vote: Riddleton
But I've read all of HGH's posts on the site (they're aren't that many). HGH are you an alt or do those posts represent your entire experience playing Mafia?

In post 121, T S O wrote:I was bored and decided to have some fun. It wasn't a reaction test, but it works better to say it's a reaction test than flat-out trolling. How would I reaction test people on something that's impossible?
Sure, it could be that. It could also be taking an opportunity to throw chaff into the air in an attempt to skew accurate reads on your behavior. That's the sort of thing good scum might do.


But once again, Krystal, this is really, really bad...
In post 123, Krystal Bald wrote:My read on you has nothing to do with whether or not you were trolling. I don't really give a fuck about that. You are now ignoring literally everything that is happening around you and focusing entirely on this conversation because it lets you get away with not scumhunting. Tell me, what's the town motivation for ignoring everything and not scumhunting?
Boiled down to its component parts this reads as "hey, I find it suspicious that you're reacting to my continuing suspicions of you". Now I'll grant you that TSO has made the pretty standard move of flipping your initial suspicions of him back on you, forcing you to stake out positions that can be looked back on later for consistency at the least or forcing you into an error that would allow him to mount a case on you at most. But that can certainly be a form of scumhunting every bit as much as it can be a sound scum defensive maneuver. Like it or not, the confrontation between you and TSO is the main thing that is happening around us, at least until Julatorium weighed in and then this odd thing blew up between Mala and Tammy.

And TSO? Thank you for this post. I feel like I know you so much better now.

On the whole there is more to dislike in Krystal's shading of the facts and opportunistic attack than TSO's aggressive defense.

Julatorium
, I have a couple questions for you.
In post 128, Julatorium wrote:1) To address the TSO post, we can talk about the "spirit of the game" nature of that play post-game. Null reaction to the question based on what we know of TSO, but happy we're out of RVS because of it.

Xfd, insanity, and Hgh came in post game-start and made no comments to the issue, infact appeared to wish to resurrect RVS. Why are you RVS'ing when stuff has happenned?
This bothers me a little bit because first you say that TSO's actions only warrant a null reaction but then you criticize Xfd, Insanity, and Hgh for not addressing it? Can you elaborate on this position for me?

You excuse Riddle's behavior as a byproduct of his inexperience, even going so far as to prod Mala and Tammy to reconsider their positions on him, but in the same post you lay a vote down on hgh, whose history (if he is not an alt) would indicate a rather pronounced lack of experience. Could you explain what you find different between the two of them?

Thank you for your answers.
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Post Post #176 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:33 pm

Post by Julatorium »

HGH wrote:I put the two people on top because they were posting a lot and they were also replying to each other a lot the last two I don't know why I put them there.
What is scummy about posting and replying to each other? Can you use more words to explain why you produced this list, and how you forgot how you put two people on this list less than 24 hours ago?
Malakittens and Tammy wrote: words and drama
We would bet money that one or both of Malakittens and Tammy are scum. /gut
Playfair wrote: This bothers me a little bit because first you say that TSO's actions only warrant a null reaction but then you criticize Xfd, Insanity, and Hgh for not addressing it? Can you elaborate on this position for me?
We're not criticizing those three for having a null reaction, we're criticizing them for having no reaction and instead RVS'ing. Everyone should have weighed in with their thoughts on the pregame shenanigans, even if their thoughts were "I don't know". RVS'ing is safe.
Playfair wrote: You excuse Riddle's behavior as a byproduct of his inexperience, even going so far as to prod Mala and Tammy to reconsider their positions on him, but in the same post you lay a vote down on hgh, whose history (if he is not an alt) would indicate a rather pronounced lack of experience. Could you explain what you find different between the two of them?
First, we aren't asking Mala and Tammy to reconsider their reads, but we expected Riddle's obvious newbness to give them pause. If they pushed without entertaining the idea that he could be newbtown, then they are just tunneling an easy target (if he's town). Second, we see Riddleton as countering Mafiascum-meta. (No lynch D1. No RVS without more information. "If I was mafia, I'd do this other thing I'm not doing.") Typical Newbie-game plays that are not indicative of alignment. Whereas HGH, on the other hand, posted a list of people he would like to chain-lynch without any reasoning. We want more information.
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Post Post #177 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:53 pm

Post by Malakittens »

In post 176, Julatorium wrote:Malakittens and Tammy wrote:
words and drama


We would bet money that one or both of Malakittens and Tammy are scum. /gut
No, there's a good chance Tammy was town. I am town, so there's that. Secondly, no bets are allowed. :igmeou:
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #178 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:54 pm

Post by xfdagentx42 »

Seriously? Yesterday... that was just Page3...

lol. Anyway, reading time.
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Post Post #179 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:00 pm

Post by xfdagentx42 »

In post 128, Julatorium wrote: Xfd, insanity, and Hgh came in post game-start and made no comments to the issue, infact appeared to wish to resurrect RVS. Why are you RVS'ing when stuff has happenned?




vote: HGH7193
...I know.

Anyway, unvoting. I don't think RVS is good when discussion started already.

UNVOTE: I'll try to look for things when its there
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Post Post #180 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:02 pm

Post by Julatorium »

In post 177, Malakittens wrote:
In post 176, Julatorium wrote:Malakittens and Tammy wrote:
words and drama


We would bet money that one or both of Malakittens and Tammy are scum. /gut
No, there's a good chance Tammy was town. I am town, so there's that. Secondly, no bets are allowed. :igmeou:
Consider it a figure of speech.
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Post Post #181 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:06 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

Searching for a replacement for DotMatrix/Tammy
"Also the town owes uctriton an apology for throwing him under the bus." - RXK
"I hate whoever shot triton." - Bumi
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Post Post #182 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:29 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

Vote Count 1.1

Dot Matrix (1) = TSO
Elmo TeH AzN (0) =
HGH7193 (3) = Not_Mafia Julatorium insanity018
insanity018 (0) =
Julatorium (0) =
Justin Playfair (0) =
Krystal Bald (1) = Riddleton
Malakittens (1) = DotMatrix
Not_Mafia (0) =
Riddleton (1) = HGH7193
T S O (0) =
xfdagentx42 (1) = KrystalBald

Not voting = ElmoTeHAzN JustinPlayfair xfdagentx42 Malakittens

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is on (expired on 2014-07-05 01:30:00)
Tat Stevens opened the front door to his loft. Standing outside were six young men.

"Hi guys, you must be here from the website."

In the door walked xfdagentx42, TSO, Riddleton, HGH7193, NotMafia, and Julatorium.

"Those are all.... weird names. I'm just going to shorthand you guys from now on." That's what he gets for trying to recruit people from the Internet, Tat thought.

"Here's the thing: my friends were all busy, and this was a kind of last minute engagement, so I hired you guys to help give me a bachelor party! I'm leaving it in your hands, because I'm down for whatever." Tat leaned back in his chair to show just how laid back he was, even with a name like Tat.

"Well xfd, you were the first to respond, so you've earned the title of Best Man. As Best Man, you have the honor of deciding where to go for our party! Where are we going?"

"If you don't give a suggestion, I'll take the first suggestion I hear from one of the other guys."

xfdagentx42, name a city where the party will be hosted.


Last edited by uctriton00 on Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Post #183 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:30 pm

Post by Krystal Bald »

In post 141, Tammy wrote:
In post 90, Krystal Bald wrote:Yo Rid what do you think of the people in this game who aren't yourself?
You're not allowed to say that Mala is town though cuz I'm saying that right now and you saying it would be stealing and stealing is wrong.
:igmeou:

Why do you think Mala is town?
The fact that Malakittens didn't know that I was joking about the massclaim thing made it seem like she didn't know that Role Cop was a scum role in this setup. If she'd known that Role Cop was a scum role she'd have known I was joking.
That's the theory, anyway.
Giles wrote:Boiled down to its component parts this reads as "hey, I find it suspicious that you're reacting to my continuing suspicions of you". Now I'll grant you that TSO has made the pretty standard move of flipping your initial suspicions of him back on you, forcing you to stake out positions that can be looked back on later for consistency at the least or forcing you into an error that would allow him to mount a case on you at most. But that can certainly be a form of scumhunting every bit as much as it can be a sound scum defensive maneuver. Like it or not, the confrontation between you and TSO is the main thing that is happening around us, at least until Julatorium weighed in and then this odd thing blew up between Mala and Tammy.
a) TSO was arguing that I was wrong because I'm a bad scumhunter. His questions centered on mafia game theory ("Do you know what anti-town is?" etc.) so I really doubt his intention was to force me to stake out a position that he could refer to later.
b) Julatorium weighed in on a lot of stuff that wasn't me/TSO so you're wrong when you say that that's the first thing that happened that wasn't me/TSO. Like, if Julatorium could talk about that stuff then why couldn't TSO?

I'm still super comfortable with my vote on xfda.
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Post Post #184 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:38 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

Wake88 has replaced into the game, replacing DotMatrix. He may begin posting after confirmation.
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Post Post #185 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:46 pm

Post by xfdagentx42 »

Krystal, if I AM scum, how do you know? Do you have high evidences? You didnt even explain why I am scumbuddied with notmafia, how can you know?

Seeing something like that makes me have a little scumread on you. You dont prove I am scum. But I wont vote till you answer.
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Post Post #186 (ISO) » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:27 pm

Post by T S O »

NO TAMMY

COME BACK

PLEASE DON'T DO THIS TO ME
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #187 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:37 am

Post by Riddleton »

whoa where has all the posts come from?
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Post Post #188 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:12 am

Post by Elmo TeH AzN »

In post 187, Riddleton wrote:whoa where has all the posts come from?
I'll give you the tl;Dr : Tammy is town. Mala tries to hard and looks scummy in Tommy's words I see it
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Post Post #189 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:58 am

Post by Malakittens »

Yet not scummy enough for anyone to put their vote where their mouth is speaking, kayyy.

185 gave me really bad feels, really, really bad feels.

VOTE: xfdag
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #190 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:33 am

Post by Malakittens »

In post 183, Krystal Bald wrote:
In post 141, Tammy wrote:
In post 90, Krystal Bald wrote:Yo Rid what do you think of the people in this game who aren't yourself?
You're not allowed to say that Mala is town though cuz I'm saying that right now and you saying it would be stealing and stealing is wrong.
:igmeou:

Why do you think Mala is town?
The fact that Malakittens didn't know that I was joking about the massclaim thing made it seem like she didn't know that Role Cop was a scum role in this setup. If she'd known that Role Cop was a scum role she'd have known I was joking.
That's the theory, anyway.
Giles wrote:Boiled down to its component parts this reads as "hey, I find it suspicious that you're reacting to my continuing suspicions of you". Now I'll grant you that TSO has made the pretty standard move of flipping your initial suspicions of him back on you, forcing you to stake out positions that can be looked back on later for consistency at the least or forcing you into an error that would allow him to mount a case on you at most. But that can certainly be a form of scumhunting every bit as much as it can be a sound scum defensive maneuver. Like it or not, the confrontation between you and TSO is the main thing that is happening around us, at least until Julatorium weighed in and then this odd thing blew up between Mala and Tammy.
a) TSO was arguing that I was wrong because I'm a bad scumhunter. His questions centered on mafia game theory ("Do you know what anti-town is?" etc.) so I really doubt his intention was to force me to stake out a position that he could refer to later.
b) Julatorium weighed in on a lot of stuff that wasn't me/TSO so you're wrong when you say that that's the first thing that happened that wasn't me/TSO. Like, if Julatorium could talk about that stuff then why couldn't TSO?

I'm still super comfortable with my vote on xfda.
Ehm, this is my fourth time playing this setup. Two times I was town JK and the third I ended up bein a mafia goon. All three games there I didn't last until Day 3. Just the thought of mass claiming when the setup can't be broken and there's no adv turns me off.
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #191 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:54 am

Post by Justin Playfair »

In post 176, Julatorium wrote:We're not criticizing those three for having a null reaction, we're criticizing them for having no reaction and instead RVS'ing. Everyone should have weighed in with their thoughts on the pregame shenanigans, even if their thoughts were "I don't know". RVS'ing is safe.
Can you explain how an rvs is safer than posting "I don't know" or having the null reaction you claimed?

In post 176, Julatorium wrote:Whereas HGH, on the other hand, posted a list of people he would like to chain-lynch without any reasoning. We want more information.
So then are you characterizing your vote on hgh as a pressure vote placed in order to illicit this information or are you currently reading hgh as scum?
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Post Post #192 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:58 am

Post by Justin Playfair »

In post 179, xfdagentx42 wrote:...I know.

Anyway, unvoting. I don't think RVS is good when discussion started already.

UNVOTE: I'll try to look for things when its there

xfd, if you believe this was true in this case then why did you random vote? Also, what is the meaning of your last sentence? Are you suggesting that nothing of possible consequence has yet happened?
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Post Post #193 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:03 am

Post by T S O »

Catching up tomorrow.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #194 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:15 am

Post by Julatorium »

Playfair wrote:Can you explain how an rvs is safer than posting "I don't know" or having the null reaction you claimed?
The latter two show thought.
Playfair wrote:So then are you characterizing your vote on hgh as a pressure vote placed in order to illicit this information or are you currently reading hgh as scum?
Identifying the vote as a pressure vote rather defeats the purpose, we would have expected you to parse the meaning without stating it explicitly.

We still want him to speak and explain what he is doing.
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Post Post #195 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:52 am

Post by Wake1 »

Confirming.
"It's wise to be... cautious... with Wake."
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"What Wake lacks in charisma, he makes up for it in pure analytic power."
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Post Post #196 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:00 am

Post by Justin Playfair »

In post 194, Julatorium wrote:
Playfair wrote:Can you explain how an rvs is safer than posting "I don't know" or having the null reaction you claimed?
The latter two show thought.
Playfair wrote:So then are you characterizing your vote on hgh as a pressure vote placed in order to illicit this information or are you currently reading hgh as scum?
Identifying the vote as a pressure vote rather defeats the purpose, we would have expected you to parse the meaning without stating it explicitly.

We still want him to speak and explain what he is doing.

I guess I have to disagree that either "I don't know" or the claim of a "null reaction" shows thought. My belief is that either of those demonstrate rather directly the absence of thought, or conversely a defensive desire to comment on a given situation without drawing undue attention.

To your second point: Not at all. The purpose of a pressure vote is to illicit an answer. If the answer is not given or if the answer given is incriminating the pressure vote may progress naturally to being a vote in earnest. If you truly believe otherwise I would have expected you in this instance to have answered that your vote was serious based on hgh's action but that you would like to hear his explanation. I also find it rather odd that you would expect me to act in concert with your agenda instead of pursuing my own when I have, as yet, no indication that you are town.
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Post Post #197 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:09 am

Post by Julatorium »

In post 196, Justin Playfair wrote:I guess I have to disagree that either "I don't know" or the claim of a "null reaction" shows thought. My belief is that either of those demonstrate rather directly the absence of thought, or conversely a defensive desire to comment on a given situation without drawing undue attention.
And ours is the opposite, both "I don't know" and null reaction display a willingness to define your stance, therefore the need to acknowledge your stance to yourself. RVS precludes stance definition.
Playfair wrote:To your second point: Not at all. The purpose of a pressure vote is to illicit an answer. If the answer is not given or if the answer given is incriminating the pressure vote may progress naturally to being a vote in earnest. If you truly believe otherwise I would have expected you in this instance to have answered that your vote was serious based on hgh's action but that you would like to hear his explanation. I also find it rather odd that you would expect me to act in concert with your agenda instead of pursuing my own when I have, as yet, no indication that you are town.
So far, there has been no answer, he appears to have vanished.

As for acting in concert, what I'm expecting is a conversation with him, but instead I'm apparently dealing with this seemingly proxy obstruction. So be it.
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Post Post #198 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:42 am

Post by Krystal Bald »

hey mala :]
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Krystal Bald
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Krystal Bald
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1589
Joined: August 26, 2013

Post Post #199 (ISO) » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:45 am

Post by Krystal Bald »

In post 189, Malakittens wrote:Yet not scummy enough for anyone to put their vote where their mouth is speaking, kayyy.

185 gave me really bad feels, really, really bad feels.

VOTE: xfdag
actually, yes a little.
the "little scum read part" and the not wanting to put a vote down, if that's the case
Ha͈̜͇̦͚i̭̖͕̭͍̫l̥̲̯ ̱̦͚̤P͓̦͎̳i̟̱z҉͚͈̖̖z̳͡a̶l͈̞̦̙c͖̥͔̮͓̣͎ơ̼̬͚̦̫a͇̪̹̠t̨̲ļ͈͚̼̰.̝̱̦͉

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