Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[Justin Playfair]

@Justin:
Why am I the darkest? Since you have varying degrees you should have reasons to go along with said degrees.

Hi Beast. I still don't like a good portion of what you said during your tussle with SeeEmpty. But there's also the fact that so many of your posts are either free of or containing only tangential content. The only time you've done more than drop a vote and a sentence is when the possible scumminess of your action was brought up by someone else. You made your tn case under pressure from SeeEmpty and I suppose it was because of my list that you finished the above post with this:

Burning has done nothing but made me feel better about my scum read on them. They just tried to dismiss a read on them by saying: "Tell me why just to entertain me." There is a sense of arrogance there that I don't think town would have. It gives off the air they are scum but think they aren't going to be lynched no matter what. Another thing with the statement is that it doesn't seem like they are actually concerned about the scum read like a town player should be. They should be trying to direct the attentions of the lynch towards that of whom they think are scum.

Standard scum play here.

It could equally be that they are town and think the case is fallacious. Personally, I'm about as suspicious of Earth as I am of you, but that's a null-tell.

And this, though after my list, just kills me:

Katen tried to dispute the accusations and didn't just shrug them off.

I don't really have an opinion on them. They seem to post a lot but I don't remember anything about them. I just ISO'd them and didn't remember a single one of their posts.

In the first place Earth was asking for details, presumably so he could dispute them.

And in the second, how can you really have no opinion on him, after more than fifty posts? How can you not remember any? You know, I'm not as persnickety about this as SeeEmpty, but if you're reading the thread at all you have to have picked up something.

And your last post was just awful, Beast. Talah put enough pressure on Desperado to get this post out of him. That's exactly what correctly applied pressure is meant to do. And I can't even being to understand the logic behind the vote on talah in that post. Hadn't you just told me you were feeling better about your scumread on Earth?

Anyway, all that is why.

[Paschendale]

I like concise arguments that can be examined for consistency and evidence. Thank you, Justin. I don't see the same malice that you do in Penguin, but I see the honesty in the case. I might be wrong and misreading Penguin, so I could definitely join that wagon to avoid a no lynch, but I do still think Katen is the scummiest.

[Justin Playfair]

I don't know if Desp is scum or not, I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. I do have him leaning scum, though.

Are you reading him as town?

talah, I was determined to wait to see if Desperado brought up his post 461 himself, because though I thought his thought process was pretty clear I wasn't sure I wasn't reading more into his posts than was really there. Anyway, I was sort of expecting that vote. So far in this game anyway Desperado has signaled his intent with short, declarative posts. I feel like I followed his thinking pretty easily on day one, and, except for the post explaining why everyone should apologize to him for complaining about the set-up talk, so far on day two. I think that's why I lean town.



pedit: @Pasch. And I can live with a Katen lynch, if that's where we end up. The reasons I'm less willing to lynch her today have everything to do with the activity around those wagons, not a change in my day one read.

[Paschendale]

All of this would be much better if we had simply managed a lynch on day 1.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hi, I'm back. V/LA took longer than anticipated and I apologize.

That said, not only did CTD and Desperado elect not to hammer Katen, but Penguin shifted his vote from the L-1 Katen wagon to bring TN's wagon to L-1. Burning took TN down to L-2, so at this point, TN was not a viable wagon. CTD, Desperado, and Penguin are the ones who gave us a no lynch on day 1 and put us in this position. These are substantial black marks against them.

You are way off the mark, Paschendale. The people directly responsible for the no-lynch are Katen, talah, Playfair, SeeEmpty and yourself. No one else who was actually there had the power to secure a lynch. Desperado and PA are only culpable insofar as they weren't around at deadline, but they're in the same boat with Finglove, beastcharizard and Burning_Earth on that front. PA at least announced that she wouldn't be able to post anymore. B_E clearly has the worst excuse, since not noticing that we're nearing deadline when people were clearly scrambling to secure a lynch displays a lack of awareness that I find hard to swallow.

I believe that talah had good, strong reason to stick with Katen. She found the claim believable and thought no-lynch to be preferable to lynching a claimed power role. Playfair had less good reasons to stick with Katen. He was willing to believe the claim and was trying to persuade me to reconsider, but he clearly expressed that no-lynch was the worst possible outcome. SeeEmpty had no good reason to stick with Katen. He seemingly didn't buy the claim, bought into my arguments for Katen-town and only kept them as his "top suspect" for their defense of beastcharizard, which in the absence of a bc flip is an incredibly weak argument. His behavior is entirely consistent with how I'd expect a scum in his position to act. He placed doubt on the claim but wasn't prepared to back it up with his vote because the rest of the people present were clearly disinclined to follow his lead and he would have been the deciding factor in swinging momentum towards a player scum knew to be a power role. He was trying to emulate townie behavior, because townie behavior was staring him right in the face (from confirmed town no less). His words don't match his actions.

The fact that Katen ended the day without voting is irksome. They clearly realized that them getting lynched would have been better than no lynch, so I'm not sure the "self voting is bad for information" spiel is entirely kosher.

PA is rightfully getting flak for doing a 180 re: my town case on Katen, and she needs to explain it better. But SeeEmpty did exactly the same thing (the only difference being that he only payed lip-service toward buying my Katen-town case and didn't back it with a vote) and should be equally scrutinized.

[Paschendale]

That's a very good point, CTD, but I wanted to lynch someone who was actually likely to be scum. After Katen flips scum, we'll know where to go next.

[CrashTextDummie]

It seems like meta was a significant part of why you thought Katen are scum. Seeing as you evidently drew from misapplied meta, why are you still convinced they're going to flip scum?

[talah]

Then vote either me or Desp then Talah. If not for the lynch then maybe for a little added pressure.

VOTE: Talah

I will even help you out. You can't just sit idly by because the slot you were voting is being replaced. Use that time to further your reads on other people and vote one of them. You are asking questions but you aren't giving any sort of pressure what so ever. It doesn't feel like you believe your scum reads on me or Desperado at this point. Now I understand the unvote on slot replacement but the no re-voting someone else is what pings me.

I'll do what I think is in town's best interests, thank you very much.

Is your vote because you think I'm scum, or because you're ludicrously pointlessly trying to demonstrate what "pressure" looks like? Because I know pressure, and it's far more subtle than laying down a vote and saying "OI PRESSURE HEAR".

VOTE: peng

Welcome back. Is Katen scum in your eyes, or not?
Did you vote her because you had a realisation she was scum, or because you were trying to bait reactions?

How does your discovery that this Saki isn't "our Saki" affect your read in any case? Did you previously think it was more likely that "our Saki" as one of the heads would be more indicative of Katen-scum?

Also what Justin said about your marvellous Katen/TN/Katen switching.

[Cheery Dog]

Votecount 2.07

penguin_alien

(4) Justin Playfair, Finglove, Katengecchi, talah

Katengecchi

(3) Burning_Earth, SeeEmpty, Paschendale

Burning_Earth

(1) Desperado

SeeEmpty

(1) CrashTextDummie

talah

(1) beastcharizard

Not Voting

(1) penguin_alien


With 11 Alive, 6 vote are required to lynch
Deadline: Friday, June 6, 2014, at 10:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2014-06-06 22:30:35)

Prodding SeeEmpty and Katengecchi

[Paschendale]

It seems like meta was a significant part of why you thought Katen are scum. Seeing as you evidently drew from misapplied meta, why are you still convinced they're going to flip scum?

If you think this, you clearly haven't been reading anything I've posted. The only part of my suspicions that had to do with meta was that a player with as many games as the real Saki wouldn't make noob mistakes. I mentioned that once. Our disagreements may have involved meta arguments, but my suspicions didn't. This Saki not being the real Saki actually makes them more likely scum, since the real Saki is prone to rash action. This one has no such excuse.

[Burning_Earth]

Sorry this is a prod dodge.

I promise some content tommorow.

[Finglove]

PA, I think Justin summarised most of the case against you in 574; I'd be keen to hear some answers.

[SeeEmpty]

Sorry for the absent. Catching up now.

[Cheery Dog]

Searching for a replacement for Katengecchi

[SeeEmpty]

Well I'm sorry I didn't lynch the tracker.

No. You're sorry you didn't vote anyone.

You were aware that it was pretty late in day 1 when you unvoted. You said you thought it was 2 days till deadline, but 2 days is still not a lot of time. Come in, throw down an unvote with no follow up doesn't feel right. I'd most certainly vote my second strongest scum read if I need to unvote at that stage.

Rereading you, there is nothing that you've done today. You said your gut feels that Katen is scum, but gut feels still comes from something. But so far you've never explain what is making you feel that way. Furthermore, you showed no interest in finding out the other scums. Coming in with only prod dodges and empty promises for contents.

BE: Leaning scum.

@Finglove: You did mention that you're going to do a full read on pa and burning. Mind sharing what you think about burning?

[Desperado]

Or you could have hammered Katen instead of helping force a no lynch.

If I had been here I would have.

[Desperado]

Well I'm sorry I didn't lynch the tracker

lol

[Desperado]

All of this would be much better if we had simply managed a lynch on day 1.

And by lynching Katen today, you're playing directly into the scum's agenda that started with NLing yesterday.

[Desperado]

Pasch
Justin Playfair
Finglove
talah
Katen

CrashTextDummie
SeeEmpty

------------------

Penguin_Alien
beastcharizard

Burning_Earth

[Paschendale]

All of this would be much better if we had simply managed a lynch on day 1.

And by lynching Katen today, you're playing directly into the scum's agenda that started with NLing yesterday.

That's very WIFOM and I can't really justify not voting for my strongest scumread. I think Katen's relative absence today is suspicious, like killing TN was an attempt to keep us from lynching Katen.

[Desperado]

I haven't actually changed my mind on all the things that make me think Katen is scum.

And if anyone would pull a gambit like that, I think Saki would.

I don't know about Koromo's style.

I really don't like Justin's vote on Penguin.

Your justification for accepting the level of WIFOM necessary to believe that Katen pulled that stunt off as scum is based on faulty meta. Why are you still clinging to it?

[Paschendale]

You do understand qualifiers on a sentence, right? No part of your bolded portion means that anyone else wouldn't be likely to do that. It takes a lot more WIFOM to accept that scum didn't expect this move than it does it think that they're that stupid. Why are you trying so hard to convince yourself that scum are so obvious?

[Desperado]

I'm not trying to convince myself of anything, I'm parsing the situation with the information that's available. Killing tn over you despite the fact that they likely could have gotten tn lynched at a later point suggests they had a plan. If it wasn't to get Katen mislynched and then kill you, what was it?

[Paschendale]

To prevent us from lynching Katen. To make us think exactly what you're thinking.

[penguin_alien]

PA, I think Justin summarised most of the case against you in 574; I'd be keen to hear some answers.

Answers: at the end of yesterday, I put my vote where I thought scum was most likely to be. I made it clear I was then absent. I was surprised CTD avoided giving a read on me or responding, and it made me skeptical of his alignment, which made me less confident in his case at the time. To be clear, it was the doubts about his alignment that undermined the case, not that his not commenting on me directly impacted his Katen case.

When this day started, I did intend to see how reactions to Katen-wagon played out. RL interfered with my ability to follow up on that effectively; oh, well. And I thought the other head was Saki-Saki, not a different name including Saki, which colored my impression of the slot. Mostly because I wasn't getting a town sense from what I expected of Saki...which tracks with this not being Saki.

Given short time on deadline, I'll claim now: VT. So if you want to lynch me, go for it. Better to sort out the doubts about my being cavalier now than at a LyLo situation.

I don't think much has changed on my reads. I'll figure out where I think scum most likely is soon and post a more useful thought/vote.