Consulmaker - Carthage wins!

[Yosarian2]

Zindaras seems rather pro-town to me. Screw that WIFOM junk, killing a scum has to be a town tell. And besides that, the kill made a lot of sense to me. Granted, a scum could kill a scum day 1 just to look pro-town, but I don't really see that as the most likely scenerio in this case. I'd give him about a 2 at the moment.

Tribunal Vote Count

Raffles - 3(Cephrir, Shanba, Yosarian2)
Yosarian2 - 1(Battle Mage)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Alright, thanks.

[Occult]

Occult, would you also mind giving your opinion of Zindaras?

I would put him in a 3-6 range.

I don't know exactly how to take him. He nailed N9V, for lurking, but I recall that livingod had more "votes" on him. He could've executed a carthaginian to make himself look good and solidfy a townie feel.
The range is kinda big but I don't find him perticularly scummy neither do I find him town though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, thanks for the input.

[Zindaras]

You should know where I stand by now

Doesn't matter. I want you to spell out the obvious.

[Shanba]

Alright. I think it's time I made my post.

PART 1:

First off, Zindaras:

I think he's scum. But not Carthaginian. I think he's our elephant. Let me highlight a few things.

Why couldn't there be 2 Mafias?
Although I doubt it, I think there still is a chance for that to occur.

It's Rome vs Carthage. There was no third group in that war.

Except maybe the elephants. That'd be a pretty awesome Mafia.

First post where he mentions the elephants. This is the first time elephants has been mentioned. This

The Stomp kill is clearly an Elephantine kill, as I suggested. Toaster Strudel is a nonsensical kill. AndrewS's role name reminds me eerily of Cultural Revolution Mafia. Cessy, if you made this look like CR, I will flay you alive.

is the next time he mentions elephants. Then there's this, when analysing Livingod:

To be honest though, he could still be our little Elephant SK (the flavour hints at Elephantine killing). If we ever get at the point where we have zero suspects, we should execute him.

Note the discrepancy between the three quotes. In the first he is taking a jokey attitude, saying that there might be elephant mafia. Night 1 there was a stomped kill, so that whole first post feels off, and looks like prior knowledge. In the next post mentioning elephants he insinuates that he knew that the kill was elpehantine. While this may be the case, and I strongly suspect it is, he never explicitly said it day 1, instead calling the idea of an elephant mafia awesome. So he's contradicted himself slightly there. Then finally, his last post he clearly indicates that he thinks it's an SK and not a mafia, as he implied in his first post.

25% is Mafia. That's the rule of thumb I use. Looking at the flavour, the game seems fairly straightforward, so I don't expect double Mafia groups. SK is possible, of course.

This post explains that, but then there's a different contradiction. He says in his first post that the elephants would be an awesome mafia, indicating that he there is a possibility of a second mafia. Plus I just disagree with this post generally, I can't see from the flavour, especially given two night 1 kills, any reason for the elephant(s) to be Sk and not mafia.

Now, secondly, there's his suspicions history. Day 1 he indicates a suspicion of Panzer (me). He then indicates Cephrir and BM, dropping me. Note that there's no reasoning at this point (though that seems to be a bit of a theme with this game). All the rest of his day 1 posts are basically fluff, theory discussion, before his one big post where he concludes that ~N9v~, Cephrir and Toaster Strudel are his LoE and N9V is his execution. Granted, he hit scum, but SK at that point is looking for scum just as avidly as town and the way he went about it leaves me distinctly uneasy. That was the first time he mentioned N9V except for once where he quotes him for his theory discussion. I'll go back to that big post later, as there's something interesting Zindie caught there.

April 4: Zindie makes this post:

]I think Kison, Battle Mage and Raffles would all be reasonable executions for the day.

Shall we have another look at his LoE? N9V he executed and came up scum. Tosater Strudel was elephanted at night. Cephrir's still alive. Bm he has found scummy consistently through the game, but frankly, BM looks no different here to when he was town in other games. I know Zindaras has indicated he will not try and metagame him yet, but it still smells opportunistic. Kison I can also agree with, having just previously fosed him myself, but where on earth did raffles come from and where did Kison go? Again, no reasoning provided. Then suddenly, today

I want everyone to give their opinions on Battle Mage, Cephirir and MoS.

I can see the progression here, so this is not as important.

Next, there's a trend. I will not quote posts for this section, beacuse I would need to quote far too many, but look for yourself: when Zindie defends himself, he only mentions the possibility of him being carthaginian and not the SK, but when he attacks (specifically Livingod), he mentions the possiblity of an SK.

Anyway, so that's my thoughts on Zindaras. I think his erraticness about his suspicions and his quietness about his reasoning, while still having that reasoning there is indicative of him being SK. Phew. Unfortunately, that's not getting me anywhere today, so moving on:

PART 2:

MoS... I indicated I thought he was pro-town earlier, but upon re-reading I no longer do. First off, there's the vote count Zindaras referenced earlier in his execution post day 1. This is what I meant when I said I would come back to that post later

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~)
Raffles - 4(Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager)

Right. Look at the players on the MoS wagon at that point: Zindaras, TheEyeOfMordor,

Primate, ~N9V~.

Isn't that interesting. Two scum out of four on his wagon, plus Zindie and TEOM. Now, shall we look at MoS' interactions with TEOM?

TEOM is right.

Ok, nothing there, he's simply supporting TEOM against Battle Mage.

now we're getting somewhere *edit out smiley* Don't forget TEOM, Battle Mage. ^_^

This is after BM analyzes Kison, nothing useful.

read him before the crash, and I found him neutral, leaning towards slightly scummy. I've hardly had time to do much reading since then, but you know that. We've gone over this already, haven't we?

Boom. Now this is interesting. and this is why:

Of everyone in the game, I would only support myself, TEOM, and Raffles as Tribunes right now. The other players aren't even possibilities at this point. Electing any of them would be highly illogical.

and then he votes TEOM for tribune.

BM, are you really this dense, or are you just trying to make a mockery out of this game? Clearly TEOM was referring to voting as in voting someone for tribune. He saw no point in voting a lurker for Tribune unless they speak up and prove themselves.

Let TEOM talk for himself.

Clearly he picked up on the second kill today because we have two dead Carthiginians, and no dead scum from the other group. This means that we need to start killing the other group before we lose too many more protown players.

And again. But then: TEOM makes his weird post about not self voting, and MoS drops him like a wet fish. Dodgy. So where were we? We had Primatescum, N9Vscum and TEOM dodgy interactions voting MoS for tribune day 1. This does not look good.

uhh, missed these first time round

Did you mean to say MoS instead of mole?

I reread his posts, I don't see anything scum about him. BM is just spouting crap, especially when he refuses to extrapolate for us.

This is interesting given he said a few posts before that TEOM was neutral leaning scummy.

Now, MoS has also been on BM's case the whole game. In his case, I have seen him do it elsewhere, but I do not understand why this makes him scum this game. Noone has provided a real case against BM except his poor logic, which with BM is a given. So I find this opportunistic too.

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This has been said before, but this is identical to Zindaras simply with him added. I don't get the logic there, does he think Zindaras is throwing all his buddies under the bus in one fell swoop? However, more importantly, I would like to know the connection MoS felt he saw between Kison and Raffles, as Raffles has been in my pro-town camp for a long while and I haven't seen any reason to move him from it.

There's almost certainly more that I've missed about MoS, but one thing I would note is:

Yeah, I agree with AndrewS' point 2. I hate self-voting and try to avoid it unless I feel it's truly necessary.

I understand why I didn't self-vote Day 1, but when there are no other options for Tribune, there is no good reason NOT to self-vote.

I don't, please elaborate.

Part 3 was going to be Cephrir, as I remembered some weird interactions between Primate and him, but looking back, all it is is Primate calling him pro-town again and again. So nvm there.

PART 3: Random things

TEOM, as well as having a strange relationship with MOS, has an appalling tribune voting history. Considering Rand's posting history, the only players we could possibly know where he stands on are BM and MoS (and possibly Zindie), so that's a black mark against him. Twito desperately needs to come back from holiday or something. Occult is doing nothing to dispel a bad feeling I got from Livingod (see his abortive TEOM vote for an example). UT has 6 posts. He needs a severe kick up the backside.

phew. I think that's the longest post I've ever posted.

[Battle Mage]

im familiar with the latter, not the former. However i dont see the relevance of that. The fact is, whilst scum is not the same as anti-town, i find it hard to understand why you concieve them to be so DRAMATICALLY different in this game, when, as far as we are aware, there is only 1 person who fits anti-town, and not scum.
BM

Scum => anti-town

Anti-town =/= Scum

(For those who don't do maths, => means "implies")

Makes me wonder why you are not familiar with these equations, BM.

[Battle Mage]

if its ok, can all active players give their comments on TEOM aswell, if they havent already?
i'd be interested to get peoples opinions down at this point.
BM

[Rand Althor]

You should know where I stand by now

Doesn't matter. I want you to spell out the obvious.

Oh great I have to actually do something.

BM-7
I am fairly sure he is scum.

Cephrir-5
Unsure he seems to be a lurker.

MoS-4
Seems more townish then scum.

[Raffles]

Because certain people can be so anti-town but be so enigmatic about their alignment. That's why I had to make a distingusishment.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I voted for Primate as Tribune, I thought he was a better choice then Zindaras at that point.
You also fail to notice that I supported the AndrewS Tribuneship, rather then the Raffleswagon. Supporting MoS keeps him above Raffles Day 1. AndrewS is town(as far as I can tell) and Raffles is still unknown.
I wouldn't call my Tribune voting appaling although it is not as good perhaps as others.
Another thing is I doubt all scum would join the MoS wagon. Even if Zindaras is an elephant(which appears possible), I doubt that 3 scum would enter their scummates wagon in the early stages on average. It would be very dangerous, although I might do so, if I would enter a scummates wagon I would do it early.
The fact that Cephrir is on the Raffleswagon makes him stand more out, as I have said there is almost surely scum there.
So I say Cephrir and Zindaras look more suspicious, and I still am not sure about MoS.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, Shanba, I gotta thank you for putting in the time for this analysis. You've only strengthened my suspicions of Zindaras, catching quite a few things I hadn't noticed. I think your Elephant theory is spot on.

PART 2:

MoS... I indicated I thought he was pro-town earlier, but upon re-reading I no longer do. First off, there's the vote count Zindaras referenced earlier in his execution post day 1. This is what I meant when I said I would come back to that post later

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~)
Raffles - 4(Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager)

Right. Look at the players on the MoS wagon at that point: Zindaras, TheEyeOfMordor,

Primate, ~N9V~.

Isn't that interesting. Two scum out of four on his wagon, plus Zindie and TEOM. Now, shall we look at MoS' interactions with TEOM?

TEOM is right.

Ok, nothing there, he's simply supporting TEOM against Battle Mage.

now we're getting somewhere *edit out smiley* Don't forget TEOM, Battle Mage. ^_^

This is after BM analyzes Kison, nothing useful.

read him before the crash, and I found him neutral, leaning towards slightly scummy. I've hardly had time to do much reading since then, but you know that. We've gone over this already, haven't we?

Boom. Now this is interesting. and this is why:

Of everyone in the game, I would only support myself, TEOM, and Raffles as Tribunes right now. The other players aren't even possibilities at this point. Electing any of them would be highly illogical.

and then he votes TEOM for tribune.

And? I read TEOM again in more detail today, going through the list of everyon that was alive, and I came to the conclusion that he wasn't as scummy as I'd thought he was before (which was hardly at all, to be fair).

BM, are you really this dense, or are you just trying to make a mockery out of this game? Clearly TEOM was referring to voting as in voting someone for tribune. He saw no point in voting a lurker for Tribune unless they speak up and prove themselves.

Let TEOM talk for himself.

I fail to see how I was saying anything new that TEOM would've had to say for himself. It was pretty clear by TEOM's post what he meant, so what's the problem with me correcting BM's ridiculous assumptions?

Clearly he picked up on the second kill today because we have two dead Carthiginians, and no dead scum from the other group. This means that we need to start killing the other group before we lose too many more protown players.

And again. But then: TEOM makes his weird post about not self voting, and MoS drops him like a wet fish. Dodgy. So where were we? We had Primatescum, N9Vscum and TEOM dodgy interactions voting MoS for tribune day 1. This does not look good.

Wait. So, TEOM does something very scummy, and I'm scummy for thinking that he's now scummy because of it? WTF?

uhh, missed these first time round

Did you mean to say MoS instead of mole?

I reread his posts, I don't see anything scum about him. BM is just spouting crap, especially when he refuses to extrapolate for us.

This is interesting given he said a few posts before that TEOM was neutral leaning scummy.

Now, MoS has also been on BM's case the whole game. In his case, I have seen him do it elsewhere, but I do not understand why this makes him scum this game. Noone has provided a real case against BM except his poor logic, which with BM is a given. So I find this opportunistic too.

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This has been said before, but this is identical to Zindaras simply with him added. I don't get the logic there, does he think Zindaras is throwing all his buddies under the bus in one fell swoop? However, more importantly, I would like to know the connection MoS felt he saw between Kison and Raffles, as Raffles has been in my pro-town camp for a long while and I haven't seen any reason to move him from it.

Where did I say that I felt everyone on my LoE was scum together? Kison and Raffles were the only two people on the LoE that I felt a connection from, giving the way that they had avoided talking about each other on Day 2 even though others were talking about them individually, especially Kison. Obviously, I was wrong, which is why I no longer feel that Raffles is particularly scummy. Which reminds me:

Vote: Raffles for Tribune

, as I had previously mentioned.

There's almost certainly more that I've missed about MoS, but one thing I would note is:

Yeah, I agree with AndrewS' point 2. I hate self-voting and try to avoid it unless I feel it's truly necessary.

I understand why I didn't self-vote Day 1, but when there are no other options for Tribune, there is no good reason NOT to self-vote.

I don't, please elaborate.

Sure. Why vote myself for Tribune when I can support a perfectly good candidate that is not myself? I DO hate self-voting, but that only really applies when there are other candidates worth voting for, which TEOM didn't feel was the case today. I felt that AndrewS would do a great job as Tribune, so after saving my vote and looking at my options, I voted for him instead of myself.

Anything else?

[Yosarian2]

Shanba made some good points; most of my feelings of Zinderas being pro-town were based on what happened with N9V. I still don't think Zineras was scum with N9V, but that dosn't mean Zinderas is not the SK, which I hadn't really thought about; an SK Zinderas would love to kill a mafia day 1, in fact. So I'd like to see Zinderas' response to Shanba's post.

[Battle Mage]

i agree that the case for Zindy being the elephant is strong, but i dont want to lynch based on that alone. If we are only going to lynch someone based on an inkling they might be an SK, id frankly much rather kill more certain scum.
BM

[Raffles]

We can't execute Zindie today regardless. The case is very interesting and plausible though, so I'll keep it in mind.

[Mastermind of Sin]

i agree that the case for Zindy being the elephant is strong, but i dont want to lynch based on that alone. If we are only going to lynch someone based on an inkling they might be an SK, id frankly much rather kill more certain scum.
BM

Wait, if the case is "strong", then how is it just an "inkling" that he might be an SK?

[Raffles]

We really should be looking for second tribune. CES seems to have got lazy, and I don't trust myself doing vote counts due to my past experience of cocking them up. At the moment, I see two possible candidates.

Yosarian 2
Pros - Consistency in his posts he made so far. Active poster. Experienced.
Cons - His predecessors were both lukrers, still no realistic read on his alignment.

Mastermind of Sin
Pros - Sharp observations. + my read on him (I'm not saying this should affect your judgement) is pro-town. Experienced.
Cons - Just executed a townie. Pro-town as he may seem, I don't think his alignment is readable. Had the power for previous two days, and probably best to put him in the common position to see how he reacts.

After some consideration, I think

Vote: Yos for tribune

is better choice of the two.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks.

[Battle Mage]

As i read through the last few posts, just wanted to pick this out:

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

The irony here, as always with MoS, is hilarious. Note that, whilst criticising my poor logic, he simultaneously declares that he will lynch me, based on the fact that i MIGHT be scum. He doesnt even say im more likely than anyone else. His suspicions seem to be solely based on the fact that i suspect him to be scum, and are thus OMGUS. Make a note, all players who think that experience makes for a better player. MoS, you really need to think about the basics of Mafia before you start influencing the gameplay of others.
Also, you should get your facts straight first. I am far more often NKed than lynched.
To conclude, you can spout crap about my 'poor logic', but the fact is, you are as guilty of that as i am. The only difference is, my crap logic is made in an attempt to contribute to the town, whereas your only intention seems to be personal survival and vendettas.

Oh and btw, there was alot more along those lines in MoS's post, but i frankly dont have the inclination to pick the rest apart in the same fashion.

BM

[Mastermind of Sin]

As i read through the last few posts, just wanted to pick this out:

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

The irony here, as always with MoS, is hilarious. Note that, whilst criticising my poor logic, he simultaneously declares that he will lynch me, based on the fact that i MIGHT be scum. He doesnt even say im more likely than anyone else.

Way to twist my words, BM. I said that your poor logic is

enough

to lynch you, not that I wanted you lynched right now, i.e. there is good reasoning for you to be killed, whether or not you are the top suspect. Had you paid attention to my posts, you would know that I rated Cephrir as more likely scum than yourself, so you're NOT the one I want to lynch today.

His suspicions seem to be solely based on the fact that i suspect him to be scum, and are thus OMGUS. Make a note, all players who think that experience makes for a better player. MoS, you really need to think about the basics of Mafia before you start influencing the gameplay of others.

This coming from the person who thinks I'm scum in just about every game and never stopped to wonder how the hell I could be scum THAT often.

Also, you should get your facts straight first. I am far more often NKed than lynched.[/quote[

Yes, vigs are an amazing invention, aren't they?

[Mastermind of Sin]

bah, stupid quotes.

[Battle Mage]

by stating this, you declare your willingness to lynch me. granted i may not be your first choice, but the fact remains that you will approve a BM-lynch given the opportunity, for no reason other than that i am annoying.
Also, i dont think you are scum in every game. So far, only this game and RFM (in which you WERE scum). of the 5/6 games im with you in, thats not bad atall.
FYI, you wouldnt be my favourite choice for execution today. I think TEOM, or even Cephrir are safer bets than you, however i cant say i dont find you scummy, and i will be keeping an eye on you.
BM

As i read through the last few posts, just wanted to pick this out:

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

The irony here, as always with MoS, is hilarious. Note that, whilst criticising my poor logic, he simultaneously declares that he will lynch me, based on the fact that i MIGHT be scum. He doesnt even say im more likely than anyone else.

Way to twist my words, BM. I said that your poor logic is

enough

to lynch you, not that I wanted you lynched right now, i.e. there is good reasoning for you to be killed, whether or not you are the top suspect. Had you paid attention to my posts, you would know that I rated Cephrir as more likely scum than yourself, so you're NOT the one I want to lynch today.

His suspicions seem to be solely based on the fact that i suspect him to be scum, and are thus OMGUS. Make a note, all players who think that experience makes for a better player. MoS, you really need to think about the basics of Mafia before you start influencing the gameplay of others.

This coming from the person who thinks I'm scum in just about every game and never stopped to wonder how the hell I could be scum THAT often.

Also, you should get your facts straight first. I am far more often NKed than lynched.[/quote[

Yes, vigs are an amazing invention, aren't they?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So are you denying that you repeatedly said that I should be executed in Kingmaker and told your replacement to get me killed, or that you, until quite recently, were heavily advocating lynching me in Mafia vs. Wolves? Not to mention that you were not advocating that I was scum in RFM until you came up with a guilty investigation on me. I don't know your alignment in either game, so I won't speculate on it (plus, we can't do that anyways), but regardless of alignment, it still stands that you have repeatedly thought I was scum in most of the games I'm in with you.

[Occult]

*Eats Popcorn*

I got a question....

I'm finding BM quite scummy from all of this, yet he really isn't considered to be anti-town by most of the players it seems. Why is that? Is this just the way he happens to play?

[Yosarian2]

BM's...generally not the most logical player, no matter what his role is.