Mini 437 - Hacker Mafia - Game Over

[TonyMontana]

How is that WIFOM ?

The two possibilities if I'm right are that:

1. What I explained earlier

2. Nobody takes him seriously, and nobody votes for me or his scum mate

Remember that he's coming from a safe position, with every excuse to be able to play the misguided townie in future turns.

Have i used the wrong acronym? What I mean is, given the situation it could be spun as you and nocmen being scum buddies, or the other guy trying to make his scum buddy nocmen look town by tying him to you when he know you are innocent.

Yes. Look up WIFOM.

[pancakemix]

Since darkhen isn't posting I will. He's innocent and I'm innocent. We are masons.

Why, exactly, would you say that? Not only is the claim out of nowhere and unneeded, but it is a little hard to believe. Are you claiming mason because you are mason or are you trying to protect yourself and your scummate? Anyone's guess.

FOS blahgo and darkhen

.

[WhoMe?]

no pressure at all and he's come out as a mason AND outed his buddy too?? what gives?

[TonyMontana]

At first I thought it was a total noob move, cause it said "joined: 26 apr" but on a second glance i see it's 2006.

His very first post in this game, and it's a claim for him and another. Highly unusual...

[Haut Boy]

Since darkhen isn't posting I will. He's innocent and I'm innocent. We are masons.

And why are you claiming AND outing your supposed mason buddy this early in the game? It reeks of scumminess, it does. I'm still more suspiscious of WhoMe?, though.

HoS: blahgo

[WhoMe?]

then lynch me or don't. I have already made all the defence I have.

[Haut Boy]

Confirm Vote: WhoMe?

, then.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Sorry for this long post, I'm just answering some questions DYH has raised.

Here's the real question, though: What would you have said if he wasn't going to drop the case on Nocmen if you come up innocent?

The subtlety of the maneuver may have been in the lose-lose question you presented to him. Of course, it all began with a pretty baseless paranoid theory about you and Nocment being cross-voting mafiates.

Your right. The paranoia about us be cross-voting mafia is exaggeration.

To adress your question tough, I would have gave him my utter and complete trust if he would have continued to say he would vote for Nocmen after my confirmed innocence.

Because then he would have to admit that he was wrong about his cross-voting theory, and make concessions that I was right about Nocmen.

Yes there was a subtlety in my question, because if he replied he wouldn't follow the case on Nocmen, I would suspect him even more. If he said he

WOULD

, then he would be forced to do so unless he breaks his word and become a liar, which would hopefully get him lynched.

So the choices I give him are far simpler:

A) If he says yes, he can keep suspecting me, but when I turn innocent he must vote his probable scum mate Nocmen.

B) He keeps suspecting me, but refuses to vote Nocmen, even if and when I turn up innocent, which is a tell that he is himself a scum.

C) He drops his theory of us being cross-voting scumbuddies.


DISCLAIMER: Advancing the scummyness of both Nocmen and VD is just speculation of my part. However, these individuals are the most suspicious to me so far and I've presented my thoughts on the situation. I will analyze the issue about Darkhen shortly.

[VanDamien]

I haven't really liked VD's arguments up to this point.

Sure, I can accept that. The problem is, I haven't really made any arguments yet, just made some statements and aired some general suspoicions, looking for a reaction. Looks like I got a reaction, here comes an argument.

If I were to be lynched or nightkilled, would you push for a Nocmen vote or would you drop your case completely ?

Regarding the question above, I meant if I was killed and proved innocent, that is

I would drop these suspicions if you were proved innocent, although I would continue to be ever-vigilant.

That is, the one's based on the cross voting.

[quote="Albert B. Rampage]Let me repeat the question. If I were to be innocent, would you drop the case on Nocmen ?[/quote]
Obviously, I answered the question. Pay attention to the bolded part. You seem to not have read that post at all. I said specifically I would no longer suspect Nocmen based on the chance of cross-voting with you. Not that I would not anymore, period. The reverse also holds if Nocmen dies and is revealed innocent. The fact that you then push for a simple yes or no when I have already answered the question only enforces my thoughts that you are scum, as it looks to me as your are fishing for a way to twist my answer.

That's madness, I have 5 games going on. Nocmen must be my primary suspect at this point, with VanDamien obviously being his scum mate. There is maybe a third one out there, or a SK. Maybe the one who hasn't posted, darhken.

Maybe the mafia has a handicap too, if darhken is one of the mafia; in that case the doctor's death didn't put us at complete disadvantage.

I echo DYH's thoughts on this post. Beyond that, unless you and your scumbuddies have a disadvantage that will prevent your nightkills, then the loss of the doctor IS a complete disadvantage. Frankly, I don't even begin to see your thinking here. Assuming the set-up is fairly well balanced, why in the world would the mod balance the scum against a modkilled doctor? You think that modkill was predicted to happen?

as I read it he has answered this question. he said he would drop his suspicions if you turned up innocent.

Again, not exactly what I said.

Then am I the only one to see the subtlety of this maneuver ?

He blames both Nocmen and me on being cross-voting mafia, then pushes for me with whatever excuse, and then when and if I turn up dead, Nocmen is completely free of suspicion. He saves his scum mate with no casualties, and they are free to continue their "rampage"

Is that link possible or am I thinking too hard ??

You're thinking too hard. You actually miss the subtlety of the manuever. It was specifically designed to get a reaction, and see what could be made of it. Your immediate re-entry into the thread, combined with extreme defensiveness and grasping at whisps while trying to redirect on your accuser is about what I would expect if I'm right. I'll say it again, if you happen to be confirmed innocent, Nocmen is not home free, that just shows I was wrong about the link between you two in the first place, which was just a giant guess to begin with.

Your right. The paranoia about us be cross-voting mafia is exaggeration.

To adress your question tough, I would have gave him my utter and complete trust if he would have continued to say he would vote for Nocmen after my confirmed innocence.

Because then he would have to admit that he was wrong about his cross-voting theory, and make concessions that I was right about Nocmen.

Granted, I could be wrong. In fact, in all likelihood I am. But then again, maybe not. Who knows at this point? Asking for concessions doesn't help you either. Trying to get someone as townie as I am on your scummy wagons on a future day, because I have the need to conceed something?

Yes there was a subtlety in my question, because if he replied he wouldn't follow the case on Nocmen, I would suspect him even more. If he said he WOULD, then he would be forced to do so unless he breaks his word and become a liar, which would hopefully get him lynched.

Exactly what I mentioned before. You are trying to simplify a difficult answer to yes or no, so you can twist it in the future. You have no interest in my thoughts, you want propaganda to use.

So the choices I give him are far simpler:

A) If he says yes, he can keep suspecting me, but when I turn innocent he must vote his probable scum mate Nocmen.

B) He keeps suspecting me, but refuses to vote Nocmen, even if and when I turn up innocent, which is a tell that he is himself a scum.

C) He drops his theory of us being cross-voting scumbuddies.

You sir, are in no position to give me a multiple choice question. I coose ABC. I'll keep suspecting you, choose whether I vote for Nocmen based on the information available at the time, which if nothing changes, would be next, and no longer need my theory for now: You're scum regardless.


As for blagho; that is really strange, but I know of at least one other time he has immediately claimed. I have yet to know whether or not he was telling the truth there. It seems a pretty dumb idea, either way.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Granted, I could be wrong. In fact, in all likelihood I am. But then again, maybe not. Who knows at this point?

WOW that's your defense ?

You are trying to simplify a difficult answer to yes or no, so you can twist it in the future. You have no interest in my thoughts, you want propaganda to use.

There, there, your overreacting. Please don't kill me tonight, ok ?

I'll keep suspecting you, choose whether I vote for Nocmen based on the information available at the time, which if nothing changes, would be next, and no longer need my theory for now: You're scum regardless.

You "no longer need your theory for now"...a Freudian slip ? That means that you wanted me down from the get-go like I had initially stated, now doesn't it ?

This is only further evidence for my case on you. The more you say, friend, the more
your file gets thicker. Thank you for making our job easier.

FoS VanDamien

if it isn't clear enough LOL

[blahgo]

VanDemeain is scum here and in another game to be named later.

vote:VanDamien

[Occult]

Wow alot has happened...

I know its already been said but WTF blahgo? With that I'll say blahgo's claim isn't as scummy as it is stupid. If he was town attempting to start discussion, he failed. If he was scum trying to throw a curveball, he failed. I don't see anyreason for that play except for this, blahgo may be a jester. Also, WhoMe strikes me as using jester tactics. This is just my speculation, though.

Next, VD.
This post is much better, though it's not the best worded i've read. I see your point on Rampage's re-entering right after the post and his post, instead of answering questions, attacks VD by selectively quoting. What I don't like about your post is you saying you are most likely wrong.

[TonyMontana]

Vote Count?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Wow alot has happened...

I know its already been said but WTF blahgo? With that I'll say blahgo's claim isn't as scummy as it is stupid. If he was town attempting to start discussion, he failed. If he was scum trying to throw a curveball, he failed. I don't see anyreason for that play except for this, blahgo may be a jester. Also, WhoMe strikes me as using jester tactics. This is just my speculation, though.

Next, VD.
This post is much better, though it's not the best worded i've read. I see your point on Rampage's re-entering right after the post and his post, instead of answering questions, attacks VD by selectively quoting. What I don't like about your post is you saying you are most likely wrong.

Actually Occult, I found his post empty of any real content besides "echoing" other's posts and repeating what he's already claimed in a rather harsh manner.

His re-entering argument might be the only logical thing he's said until now.

And about that, as I said, I am in 5 other games, you guys are free to verify. Two of them started at the same time I was "seen online without posting". I was constantly refreshing the thread, and then logged off when it was quiet.

Again, sorry for hijacking the page. I post too much lol

[Occult]

I'm not saying I'm perticularly suspicious of you, but I didn't like your last post.

Now, I have a Questionaire:

1) What's Favorite Color?
2) What is your perfered Ice cream flavor?
3) Paper or Plastic?
4) If you could get rid of anyone in this game for being scum, who would it be?
5) What is the Best Movie ever?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Here's Albert B. Rampage's vote count of the day:

3 - WhoMe? (TonyMontana, DYH, Haut Boy)

2 - Albert B. Rampage (Nocmen, VanDamien)
1 - VanDamien (Blahgo)
1 - Nocmen (Albert B. Rampage)
1 - Occult (WhoMe?)

Not voting: PancakeMix, Darhken, Occult,

I'm not saying I'm perticularly suspicious of you, but I didn't like your last post.

Now, I have a Questionaire:

1) What's Favorite Color?
2) What is your perfered Ice cream flavor?
3) Paper or Plastic?
4) If you could get rid of anyone in this game for being scum, who would it be?
5) What is the Best Movie ever?

That will unnecessarily clutter up the page even more.

[Occult]

That will unnecessarily clutter up the page even more.

[Nocmen]

I think Occult has an ability that is reliance upon the number of posts in the thread? Like...a spam god, if people spam he gets stronger?

[Occult]

I think Occult has an ability that is reliance upon the number of posts in the thread? Like...a spam god, if people spam he gets stronger?

LOL.

I've actually heard that before. I just post like that, my posts are smaller but I post more often.

Also, could you specify your suspicions on Rampage, you didn't give info on the subject when voting on him.

[DYH]

First, let me clarify what happened here, Albert, to ensure I have your position straight:

* Nocmen votes you in Post 66 for pushing against Net, who he felt that he clearly blew his cover as the doctor.

* You vote him in Post 88, stating that his justification for voting you was wrong in that Net had clearly not claimed he was the doctor and that he'd "slipped" multiple times. This is pretty OMGUS- 'your vote sucks, so here's mine that sucks, too!'

However, it's important to note that both times Net "slipped" he referred to a town power role. Both times you fished in the very next post 'Does this mean you're not a cop?' and 'You mean a doctor?'. Those two posts are a point against you in and of themselves. Also, you quickly joke around about the Net wiki entry in post 62, one minute after post 61 your question about the doc. Interesting topic quickchange there.

So, let's review your vote:

Basing your accusation on that sole argument justifies my vote for you

Unvote, vote: Nocmen

because its PAINFULLY clear that he wasn't referring to himself as doctor. This is not his first slip either, you have no reason to believe he meant that.

Then why did you ask if he meant a doctor? Clearly that was the first thought you had. Surely you weren't buying that "I was talking to God" stuff that came later. Secondly, When Nocmen continues the case on you in post 75 - where he again references Net as the likely doc - Net votes you in 76 stating 'for Nocmen's post'. It's actually painfully apparent at this point he had claimed doctor.

* You ask Nocmen to remove his vote for you as a 'misunderstanding' in post 99. (When did we start bartering for vote removal? This just seems weird.) You also agree with Tony Montana, who upon re-read has tripped my scumdar, in his post 95 where he discredits Net with:

This "slip-up" is ridiculous. I think Net's eager noob play is losing credibility by the minute.

This looks like scum trying to push the wagon on Net a bit harder to see if they can push out confirmation of the subclaim.

* Nocmen refuses to unvote you in 101.

* You accuse Nocmen of being too proud to admit he's wrong in post 102.

* By post 107 Net has been modkilled and revealed as the doc. You state you wouldn't have voted for Net, though in response to Nocmen's accusation that you were after him before and after the "slip-up". Exactly how I've done it as scum, too, push the wagon on the newbie without hopping on board. Doesn't leave the sticky vote trail.

More to come, conference call...

[DYH]

...continuing.

* Van Damien accuses you and Nocmen of being cross-voting scum in post 111.

* In post 131, VD accuses you of lurking as you have posted elsewhere but not here.

* Occult defends you in 132, re-reads and finds little justification aside from the cross-voting in 133. (Weird, I found the "hey you unvote me, I'll unvote you" transaction bizarre- you didn't?)

* You throw out that Nocmen must instead be Van Damien's scum partner, not yours in post 135. More OMGUS? Foundation? I pointed out the bad vibes this post gave me, but for review:

That's madness, I have 5 games going on. Nocmen must be my primary suspect at this point, with VanDamien obviously being his scum mate. There is maybe a third one out there, or a SK. Maybe the one who hasn't posted, darhken.

Maybe the mafia has a handicap too, if darhken is one of the mafia; in that case the doctor's death didn't put us at complete disadvantage.

There's also the bizarre speculation about a Serial Killer and the "handicapped mafia".

* Post 136 presents the trap question which leads me to this conclusion:

You assume that because Nocmen is attacking you and now that VD has jumped in, they must be scum together. I presume your reasoning here is that because VD chose to vote you and not Nocmen, he's protecting him? He gave the reasoning (active lurking) to select you.

I need to touch on your response post:

Your right. The paranoia about us be cross-voting mafia is exaggeration.

To adress your question tough, I would have gave him my utter and complete trust if he would have continued to say he would vote for Nocmen after my confirmed innocence.

Yet later your assumptions state that Van Damien is likely scum? But you would trust him? I wonder if you fabricated this response because my accusation of you setting VD up to fail in a lose-lose question is true.

Because then he would have to admit that he was wrong about his cross-voting theory, and make concessions that I was right about Nocmen.

He'd need to admit he was wrong about you, yes, but if you're town, your alignment doesn't mean squat about Nocmen's. What precludes him from being wrong and town attacking you?

Dead scum leave the most concrete links- dead townies don't.

Yes there was a subtlety in my question, because if he replied he wouldn't follow the case on Nocmen, I would suspect him even more. If he said he WOULD, then he would be forced to do so unless he breaks his word and become a liar, which would hopefully get him lynched.

LAL is not a valid lynching strategy, especially on such flimsy logic. You want to set him up to be forced to attack Nocmen in the event you die and come up innocent? What sort of justification do you have for this beyond OMGUS gut reaction?

So the choices I give him are far simpler:

A) If he says yes, he can keep suspecting me, but when I turn innocent he must vote his probable scum mate Nocmen.

B) He keeps suspecting me, but refuses to vote Nocmen, even if and when I turn up innocent, which is a tell that he is himself a scum.

C) He drops his theory of us being cross-voting scumbuddies.


DISCLAIMER: Advancing the scummyness of both Nocmen and VD is just speculation of my part. However, these individuals are the most suspicious to me so far and I've presented my thoughts on the situation. I will analyze the issue about Darkhen shortly.

I've already touched on how dangerous linking people this early can be- can you create a case on anyone that doesn't involve a conspiracy theory? Why does every justification you make have to involve your dying and turning up innocent? It feels like you want to push home the fact if you die you'll come up town and take the arguments as such is already fact. I have serious doubts.

You've taken two attacks on you and turned them into OMGUS. You discredited and fished for information from Net. You're using some dubious logic and tactics that don't read townie to me.

Unvote

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

Out of curiosity- how do you feel about:

1. Whome?
2. Tony Montana
3. Occult

[Albert B. Rampage]

DYH, no offense man, but the very core of Nocmen's argumentation was flawed. I thought you had caught that, which made it obvious that Nocmen is either lying or mistaken.

He said I attacked net before and after his slip-up, but how is that claim true in any way ? Look at my

only

relevant post after his slip-up:

Quit whining, there isn't a case on you. If your a townie, just don't provoke any more controversy, and you will naturally survive until the server is fully operational again.

I actually told him he would survive the lynchings. Read between the lines, you can clearly see that I was trying to stop the bandwagon on him.

Well, age and newness aside, net is getting all worked up without even a vote against.

Vote:netixriqua

But shortly after my post and net's slip-up, looky here who starts voting for him. VanDamien himself! If I'm to be accused instead of VanDamien for pushing a bandwagon I was trying to stop by Nocmen, tell me, how can I not believe them to be scumbuddies ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

To put it more bluntly, I was discrediting net for his own sake. Of course I wasn't buying the god theory, but what was I to do ? The mafia would've killed him. His unexpected MODKILL was the worse thing possible to me because:

1. It discredits me with no way of proving I was trying to help the town.

2. Loss of a doctor, and I seem a likely target for a nightkill since I might have stepped on the toes of the wrong people aka Nocmen and/or VD.

Use your logic, DYH.

All my assumptions so far have begun with the premise that Nocmen and VD are scum. I will collect all the evidence on them and that will be my contribution to this society.

Therefore, see it as a conspiracy theory, as OMGUS, as LAL or whatever you want. They are guilty as sin to me. I am certain.

[DYH]

DYH, no offense man, but the very core of Nocmen's argumentation was flawed. I thought you had caught that, which made it obvious that Nocmen is either lying or mistaken.

He said I attacked net before and after his slip-up, but how is that claim true in any way ? Look at my

only

relevant post after his slip-up:

Quit whining, there isn't a case on you. If your a townie, just don't provoke any more controversy, and you will naturally survive until the server is fully operational again.

I actually told him he would survive the lynchings. Read between the lines, you can clearly see that I was trying to stop the bandwagon on him.

Well, age and newness aside, net is getting all worked up without even a vote against.

Vote:netixriqua

But shortly after my post and net's slip-up, looky here who starts voting for him. VanDamien himself! If I'm to be accused instead of VanDamien for pushing a bandwagon I was trying to stop by Nocmen, tell me, how can I not believe them to be scumbuddies ?

Firstly, that is not your only "relevant post" after Net's slip. There is also Post 99 where you agree with Tony's assessment in 95:

This "slip-up" is ridiculous. I think Net's eager noob play is losing credibility by the minute.

Oh, and I feel like slapping a big fat

FoS

on

Occult

for calling out lurkers 2 hours after the game started. Eager to direct attention somewhere, or just full of bollocks?

Yes I agree. First net with his string of slips, now Occult.

I don't know what to make of this. The meanings and interpretations vary, the verbatims are too ambiguous and we are running in circles.

I will remove my vote, Nocmen, if you do the same. Let's look back at the posts so far, sum up the main events so far and discuss what course of action to take next...okay dude ?

Secondly, Van Damien's vote of Net came

before

Net's doc subclaim.

Lastly, why would you ask if he was implying a doctor claim if you were truly trying to keep him under the radar?

[Albert B. Rampage]

This "slip-up" is ridiculous. I think Net's eager noob play is losing credibility by the minute.

Oh, and I feel like slapping a big fat

FoS

on

Occult

for calling out lurkers 2 hours after the game started. Eager to direct attention somewhere, or just full of bollocks?

Yes I agree. First net with his string of slips, now Occult.

I don't know what to make of this. The meanings and interpretations vary, the verbatims are too ambiguous and we are running in circles.

I will remove my vote, Nocmen, if you do the same. Let's look back at the posts so far, sum up the main events so far and discuss what course of action to take next...okay dude ?

Yes, this post. It only helps me to clear myself. The topic changes as well do nothing but justify what I've previously stated.

Lastly, why would you ask if he was implying a doctor claim if you were truly trying to keep him under the radar?

Why would Nocmen insist on that post pages after the fact ? It was a calculated move to confirm doc's indentity, me says.

Look at the posting times between net's slip and my post. I thought I was being smart about guessing a cue, apparently not.