Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[beastcharizard]

Frustrated town when they aren't really being pressured with votes? At that time I am pretty sure they only had 2 votes on them.

[penguin_alien]

CTD, you said you weren't sure about my play here (which, yes, I've been inactive lately; surprise!IRL things running amok) but now we're right off a game with town-me, and you know how I think as scum as well as anyone after 164. If you can narrow down your read on me, that would be super.

Mod, V/LA for me for 48 hours please. Thanks!

Yes, this means I almost certainly won't be moving my vote...

[Cheery Dog]

Votecount 1.01

Katengecchi

(6) Paschendale, penguin_alien, SeeEmpty, Justin Playfair, tn5421, talah

tn5421

(5) Desperado, Burning_Earth, beastcharizard, CrashTextDummie, Finglove

SeeEmpty

(1) Katengecchi

Not Voting

(0)


With 12 Alive, 7 vote are required to lynch
Deadline: Wednesday, May 14, 2014, at 9:40 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2014-05-14 21:39:58)

[CrashTextDummie]

How does this one instance stack up against the rest of TN's actions?

Not quite sure what you're asking here, but I can tell you how it stacks up against any and all of Katen's actions. It's orders of magnitudes worse.

Okay, convince me.

I've given you more than enough reason to lynch TN over Katen. It's just a matter of whether you want to be convinced or not.

Except that everyone knows that quickhammers get taken to town the next day. A wagon will build on a quickhammerer every time, no matter how obviously scummy the hammered person was. Putting oneself in the spotlight like that, risking a lynch so blatantly, is not very good scum play. And having seen some quickhammerers get lynched over their hammer, they don't flip scum any more often than random chance would suggest.

Echoing SeeEmpty. If TN expects to be lynched anyway, there's no reason why he wouldn't do something to hurt the town on his way out. Hammering a potential power role is towards the top of the list of hurtful things you can do to a town. There is literally no town motivation to explain his hammer attempt but there is tremendous scum motivation.

[CrashTextDummie]

Not if they think the current wagon is hard to push and wanted to find a way to switch to another wagon. This is basically just the same as scum calling another person town. I don't see how this is a town tell.

I strongly disagree. There is scum motivation in calling another person town, it's designed to influence that person's read on you (i.e. buddying) or getting in the good grace of people who are also townreading that person. Pointing out a townslip has an altogether different effect, it influences the reads others have of that person. It is very decidedly not in the interest of scum to prove the innocence of town members (which the majority of players assume Talah is), there is literally no upside for them.

More importantly, I once again stress that scum

do not look for townslips

. They know who the town are, they don't need proof of it. Town do. The towntell Katen pointed out is not remotely obvious. I personally wouldn't have caught it because I didn't unspoiler the mod's dead list (and would never have thought of doing it on D1). This is not a throwaway tidbit that any scum could have pieced together offhand. It required a significant amount of pro-town thought and effort on Katen's part.

[CrashTextDummie]

Looks exactly like frustrated town to me!

Frustrated about what? You are also currently voting the guy.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, you said you weren't sure about my play here (which, yes, I've been inactive lately; surprise!IRL things running amok) but now we're right off a game with town-me, and you know how I think as scum as well as anyone after 164. If you can narrow down your read on me, that would be super.

I agree. What's your read on me?

[penguin_alien]

Leaning town based on your play, but I didn't like your predecessor so you don't get a giant town endorsement.

Your point about town tells is a good one though, and I have to admit that unless scum went way underpowered here, they'd claim a PR on the way down. And possibly even more likely then.

VOTE: tn5421

L-1

[Paschendale]

Not quite sure what you're asking here, but I can tell you how it stacks up against any and all of Katen's actions. It's orders of magnitudes worse.

I've given you more than enough reason to lynch TN over Katen. It's just a matter of whether you want to be convinced or not.

Claiming that your arguments are self-evident and we're just lying to ourselves or being stubborn for not agreeing with you is pretty much the least compelling thing you can do. I have literally no reason to listen to you.

@Penguin: Don't fall for it. Scum can make up slips just as well as town can.

[Justin Playfair]

More importantly, I once again stress that scum do not look for townslips. They know who the town are, they don't need proof of it. Town do. The towntell Katen pointed out is not remotely obvious. I personally wouldn't have caught it because I didn't unspoiler the mod's dead list (and would never have thought of doing it on D1). This is not a throwaway tidbit that any scum could have pieced together offhand. It required a significant amount of pro-town thought and effort on Katen's part.

I might be mistaken, but would scum have had to piece it together offhand? Wouldn't scum have known? And since Katen had fought long and hard to press a case against Talah with essentially no results, would it not have been an easy way to extract herself from that situation with the least possible damage? As Katen herself said when declaring it a townslip for Talah, it was only a townslip because scum would have known.

In fact your own logic argues more conclusively that this would be a scumtell than a towntell. Why would town-Katen have unspoilered the mod’s dead list in response to Talah’s mention of QTs? And she would have had to have done it then, because her response including that information was her third post after Talah made this townslip. Scum Katen would have known about it all along and could simply choose the right moment to use it.

The only real way your argument here would work is if you knew Katen is town before you looked at the evidence.


Please explain.

[CrashTextDummie]

I might be mistaken, but would scum have had to piece it together offhand? Wouldn't scum have known? And since Katen had fought long and hard to press a case against Talah with essentially no results, would it not have been an easy way to extract herself from that situation with the least possible damage? As Katen herself said when declaring it a townslip for Talah, it was only a townslip because scum would have known.

Why would scum feel a need to artificially "exctract" themselves from scum reading someone?

Scum knows if they're using a QT or a private topic. They don't necessarily know that there's a hint in the opening post, nor would they feel a need to point it out. Particularly since there's no guarantee the note will still be there once the mod starts adding dead people to the list.

In fact your own logic argues more conclusively that this would be a scumtell than a towntell. Why would town-Katen have unspoilered the mod’s dead list in response to Talah’s mention of QTs? And she would have had to have done it then, because her response including that information was her third post after Talah made this townslip. Scum Katen would have known about it all along and could simply choose the right moment to use it.

You made me check. They are a hydra. Saki was the one who pointed out the town slip. The preceeding 4 posts were signed by Koromo. Your lack of attention to detail is disturbing.

The only real way your argument here would work is if you knew Katen is town before you looked at the evidence.

If you are suggesting that I'm scum and that Katen is town, maybe you should stop voting them.

[CrashTextDummie]

Claiming that your arguments are self-evident and we're just lying to ourselves or being stubborn for not agreeing with you is pretty much the least compelling thing you can do. I have literally no reason to listen to you.

I'm not claiming that my arguments are self-evident, otherwise I wouldn't be reiterating, clarifying and elaborating on them. If you don't think you have any reason to listen to me, there is not much I can do to help you.

[Justin Playfair]

Oh my.

Why would scum feel a need to artificially "exctract" themselves from scum reading someone?

Exactly how many games of mafia have you played? Too many to make this statement. Scum always need to artificially extract themselves from a failing wagon or a wagon that has begun to bring unfavorable attention to themselves. Their motivations are artificial by definition as they are scum trying to appear to be town. They do it and attempt it in every game. And in every game they attempt to do it in a way that would appear to make them town.

Seriously, that statement makes no sense at all.

They don't necessarily know that there's a hint in the opening post, nor would they feel a need to point it out. Particularly since there's no guarantee the note will still be there once the mod starts adding dead people to the list.

And this makes no sense. Whether the note would be there once the mod starts adding dead people to the list is entirely irrelevant. This action was taken on day one, to effect the outcome of day one, when the note was there. What is the point of even bringing that up, except perhaps to cloud this situation?

You made me check. They are a hydra. Saki was the one who pointed out the town slip. The preceeding 4 posts were signed by Koromo. Your lack of attention to detail is disturbing.

Oh, Crash. My lack of attention to detail is disturbing, but you made a post in which you cleared Katen of wrongdoing based on her bringing up this towntell yet had to check to see that there even were posts in between Talah making it and Katen pointing it out. I don't really consider it particularly significant which head of a hydra signs a particular post, as I cannot verify what the interaction between the two heads might be. But thank you for confirming that there were Katen posts between the slip and Katen mentioning it, and for pointing out that you had to check to make sure.

If you are suggesting that I'm scum and that Katen is town, maybe you should stop voting them

If we had more time before deadline, based on your last two posts, I would most certainly be voting for you.

[tn5421]

It's ironic, since I am a Town PR.

[Desperado]

Softing PR isn't going to get you anywhere with me

[tn5421]

I'm a Town Tracker. Hard Claim, have fun

[Paschendale]

Claiming that your arguments are self-evident and we're just lying to ourselves or being stubborn for not agreeing with you is pretty much the least compelling thing you can do. I have literally no reason to listen to you.

I'm not claiming that my arguments are self-evident, otherwise I wouldn't be reiterating, clarifying and elaborating on them. If you don't think you have any reason to listen to me, there is not much I can do to help you.

I should rephrase that. I have no reason to change my votes based on what you've said. Your arguments are not compelling at all. They're not convincing. You do not make your case.

[tn5421]

You guys might as well hammer Katen now, you can always lynch me tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

Paschendale, if you can't see that that's a fake claim, you're willfully blind. That goes for everyone, you're just the only one who has posted postclaim.

He tries to hammer because he's "getting lynched anyway". He says we can always lynch him tomorrow. None of that matches up in the slightest with him being a power role. He's clearly just trying to survive another day.

I'm on the phone and will adress other stuff once I'm home, that is if no one hammers before that. Which would not be bad at all.

[Burning_Earth]

Unvote

[Katengecchi]

tn if you are a PR why do you think you're going to be lynched? why are you even offering yourself to be lynched?
Not really liking the 180 read on us either.

But then again I have a feeling that if he's town scum will deal with him to begin with.
I have some mixed thoughts on where to proceed for now.
CTD what's your read on SeeEmpty/has it changed since you said you could also be interested in lynching him?

-Saki

[Justin Playfair]

We're under two hours here. Is anyone really comfortable with no-lynch? Burning Earth, is that what your unvote with no new vote means?

[CrashTextDummie]

We're under two hours here. Is anyone really comfortable with no-lynch? Burning Earth, is that what your unvote with no new vote means?

How about we change things up and you answer your own question for once? Are

you

comfortable with no-lynch? TN was your second biggest suspect (until our little spat at least), so you shouldn't be categorically opposed to lynching him. Do you find his claim believable?

[CrashTextDummie]

tn if you are a PR why do you think you're going to be lynched? why are you even offering yourself to be lynched?
Not really liking the 180 read on us either.

You're not going to get any satisfying answers to those questions, not within the next hour, not ever.

But then again I have a feeling that if he's town scum will deal with him to begin with.
I have some mixed thoughts on where to proceed for now.

Don't hold your breath on scum dealing with him, he's very obviously caught scum himself.
The correct way to proceed is to vote him so that Burning Earth can satisfy his urge to hammer.

CTD what's your read on SeeEmpty/has it changed since you said you could also be interested in lynching him?

Still a scum read, though not as strong as Playfair after his recent shenanigans and obviously not as strong as TN. I'll take another look at him tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

It's ironic, since I am a Town PR.

To empathize, this is

not

a town reaction to being put at L-1.