Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[Occult]

Sup Thesp.

A few things:
-Why do you belive john is an SK?
-Vry/Vel connection proof.
-This is a closed set up, are you sure of a SK?
Lastly, your neice's arrogance doesn't sit well with me.

[Thesp]

Lastly, your neice's arrogance doesn't sit well with me.

I will tell her that. I bet you just made a 5 year old cry.

[Occult]

I will tell her that. I bet you just made a 5 year old cry.

That's what I do.


On the other hand, thanks for answering my questions and showing proof of your accusations. *Sarcassm*

[Thesp]

On the other hand, thanks for answering my questions and showing proof of your accusations. *Sarcassm*

My pleasure! For what it's worth, I am giving an indirect answer to a playstyle question Guardian posed in this game. 8)

[Occult]

Hmmm....

I like the old guy, so,

Unvote

john, do you have anything to say in regards to being a SK or not?

IGMEO: Thesp

[mustafa15]

Thesp, care to explain anything? Just stating things as fact isn't really the best strategy...

[Thesp]

Thesp, care to explain anything? Just stating things as fact isn't really the best strategy...

I respectfully disagree.

[Guardian]

Wow. Almost all of you look scummy. But fortunately, I waded through all the wrong scum tells to find the scum for you all, since you haven't done it, despite having 14 pages of posts to work from.

Vel-Rahn Koon is is scumbuddy with Vryklan. John is the Serial Killer. Guardian is flamingly town, it burns my eyes how obvious his townness exudes from him. Peter Venkman or Occult are probably scum (though not together). I can't figure out which one, but we should have time to lynch them both. I'm mildly unimpressed by Avinyl.

Unvote: Occult, Vote: John

, since killin the SK is probably better this early than killing mafia. We can get Vel-Rahn Koon, Vryklan and Peter Venkman/Occult after that. Heck, if we have a vig, we could win by the end of N2.

OMG, thank you, someone who agrees with me at least on something -.-. I'm going to do a re-read and look for the V&V connection, I missed it, maybe it's there.

I can definitely see how BOTH Peter and Occult would be scum, especially Peter.

The thing I'd have to really disagree with is John as not pro-town. Why in hell would he defend me so much if not pro-town? As SK, maybe he wants me to think he's town? Or something? I am really not, at this point, seeing eye to eye with you on that.

I have only ten more days in this game before I go overseas . Maybe we can win before then? .

I would unvote on Avinyl, but Occul beat me to it. -2 is fine with me, I don't want to leave it at -1 so much and try and get a read from the one person who hammers.

Thesp/all: thoughts on Paradoxscum? I could definitely see P&P scumpair, much more obviously than I can see V&V.

Mustafa has contributed very little to the game, how about him too?

Gorckat, where the hell are you . Ditto with Vryklan's replacement, come to us! Avi too.

mod

prods?

At least Thesp is here, as with Paradox and mustafa.

[gorckat]

I'm alive. Work net went down last Wednseday and I've had b-day parties, my best friend buying a house, wife getting promoted and such drama at home eating up my time.

I'll be trying to catch up today.

[Sefer]

I sent Avi a prod yesterday morning, and I'll give him at least 72 hours from when I sent the prod to check in before I look for a replacement. Of course, I'm still hunting for a replacement for Vryklan.

I've received word from Vel-Rahn Koon that he hasn't been able to post recently because his son has been sick. He's promised me he will post today or tomorrow.

[John]

What can i say to thesp?
well, here, i'll try.
Im not the SK, if one even exits in a game this small.

I also hate Thesp's playstyle of pointing fingers, with no proof of anthing.
since avi will almost undoubtably replaced in my opinion, ill

Unvote, Vote: Thesp

untill he tells us why im an SK, and not just cause a 5 year old said so.

[gorckat]

I just reveiwed Thesp's play in Newb 310 which we were in together and he also played close to the vest in that one. I think it is safe to say his not sharing too much (he does need to throw us a bone) does not mean he is scum.

I'm not clearing him, just pointing out his behavior is consisitent with a previous game I was in.

Avi also had similar problems to this in that same game and turned up pro-town. He was, however, more substantive in some of his posts.

[Raffles]

But giving us no reason is a very anti-town play. Anti-town play would be detrimental to the town at later stage, regardless of the alignment.

Unless he was drunk,

Vote: Thesp

[gorckat]

This was also a large debate (to me, at least) in my only game off site. There was a player that grated my nerves by not sharing his insights. He was the doc, but his style was simply not an open one, not trying to avoid the scum, imho.

I'm not sure if its metagamey since it can make being scum easier, or a personality thing.

In principle, I do agree that suspicions should be laid out for the most part- if a person has a great insight and gets offed, then town isn't helped. But I don't think anyone's mind or style will be changed mid-game in a case where the player has shown this style before.

I'm at least going to give Thesp a fair shake on his thoughts and actually look for what he sees, not just demand it.

[Occult]

I believe he needs to justify his accusations. He can keep them to himself if he wants but he's not going to get any support like that.

And guardian, WTF? Just because he comes in here and says "these people are scum." Doesn't make it true, I find your willingness to follow him annoying. I know you don't have much time left but it most likely won't happen that fast. Also, my unvoting doesn't prevent you from doing so.

[Guardian]

I believe he needs to justify his accusations. He can keep them to himself if he wants but he's not going to get any support like that.

I disagree, we need to reread and see if any of it makes sense.

And guardian, WTF? Just because he comes in here and says "these people are scum." Doesn't make it true, I find your willingness to follow him annoying.

I disagreed with half of his points, I am willing to reread and consider, however. Show me where I said that because he said it it makes it true.

I know you don't have much time left but it most likely won't happen that fast. Also, my unvoting doesn't prevent you from doing so.

Yeah I know, seeing a lynch or at least some more progress would be nice though . I didn't unvote because I like my vote on Avinyl so long as he is not at lynch -1.

[Occult]

I disagree, we need to reread and see if any of it makes sense.

I did and saying john is 100% a SK makes no sense.

Show me where I said that because he said it it makes it true.

Instead of questioning way he thinks he has this game down, you basicly asked if he could complete this game in 10 days.

Yeah I know, seeing a lynch or at least some more progress would be nice though . I didn't unvote because I like my vote on Avinyl so long as he is not at lynch -1.

This is the only part of your post that makes sense.

Finally, Thesp seems to just be looking for reactions with this post. I doubt he has as much of a grasp on this game as his post said he did.

[Paradoxombie]

Guardian is flamingly town, it burns my eyes how obvious his townness exudes from him.

Seems like scum, not because it supports someone I suspect(I don't even suspect guardian that much, just more than anyone else), but primarily since i don't see why you wouldn't give your reasoning. Now to not tell your suspected scum why you suspect them is one thing(obviously you don't want to point out their weaknesses so they can fix them), but if you really think Guardian is so very town, why not tell us why?

If you've just read the topic you should be able to see that several of us are suspicious of his activity. How about filling us in? Don't you want to help him and us by preventing us from lynching someone wrongly?

I think it's a very scummy thing to do, to just casually remark that someone is totally innocent in your mind. It seems like something that would only be done to

1. Throw a little doubt our way. Just enough to make a difference but not be totally obvious

or

2. Try to gain someone else's trust(see directly below VVV)

[From Page 1]

Vel is right that my hunch about gorckat is probably off, but one way I try to start out a game is figure out one person I can be pretty sure of trusting - and this game gorckat seems legit.

Forgive me for being skeptical, but that sure looks like a good way to "buy" the other person's trust if you aren't on the town's side...although I presume you generally don't run up to 'em and give this reasoning

[Thesp]

question on general theory: is it sometimes better to not call out a scum so they won't be more careful, and then to point out fishy things after many slipups, or should I/we point out stuff as soon as we see it?

How prophetic.

I can definitely see how BOTH Peter and Occult would be scum, especially Peter.

If they're both scum, I have serious reservations as to them being scum on the same team - I have them as dissociated in my notes.

The thing I'd have to really disagree with is John as not pro-town. Why in hell would he defend me so much if not pro-town?

To gain brownie points. Defending townies isn't a tell as to townieness or scumness, in my experience,

especially

early.

Thesp/all: thoughts on Paradoxscum? I could definitely see P&P scumpair, much more obviously than I can see V&V.

I didn't see him as notable. I'll be happy to review.

Mustafa has contributed very little to the game, how about him too?

I think you've said it all.

I also hate Thesp's playstyle of pointing fingers, with no proof of anthing.
since avi will almost undoubtably replaced in my opinion, ill Unvote, Vote: Thesp untill he tells us why im an SK, and not just cause a 5 year old said so.

I'm intrigued by your decision to vote for me based on a playstyle, while showing no indication of actually

thinking

I'm scum. That's a scum mentality.

But giving us no reason is a very anti-town play.

I respectfully disagree with this. Just because it annoys you does not mean it's bad. I think the responsibility is upon you to show:
(1) Since you think that failing to give reasoning is anti-town, please show reasoning that justifies your position that failing to provide reasoning is anti-town; and
(2) Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the

opposite

. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not? Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action

X

, even if

X

is unintentionally harmful.)

I don't think you'll be able to. Of course, you're also welcome to work on the gut feeling of the above, but please understand me when I continue to assert you are incorrect.

I believe he needs to justify his accusations. He can keep them to himself if he wants but he's not going to get any support like that.

Okay. I don't mind this approach in the least, especially since I may or may not be trying to drum up support.

Instead of questioning way he thinks he has this game down, you basicly asked if he could complete this game in 10 days.

We can do this if we have a vig and we turbo-vote.

Seems like scum, not because it supports someone I suspect(I don't even suspect guardian that much, just more than anyone else), but primarily since i don't see why you wouldn't give your reasoning.

That's fine with me, maybe even optimal.

If you've just read the topic you should be able to see that several of us are suspicious of his activity. How about filling us in? Don't you want to help him and us by preventing us from lynching someone wrongly?

Oh, I missed the votecount where Guardian was at lynch -1. I will double check for that.

I think it's a very scummy thing to do, to just casually remark that someone is totally innocent in your mind. It seems like something that would only be done to

1. Throw a little doubt our way. Just enough to make a difference but not be totally obvious

or

2. Try to gain someone else's trust(see directly below VVV)

How would (1) obtain? Also, does it look like I've gained anyone's trust? I'm uncertain that my technique is conducive to trust-forming.

Also, I <3 Occult. I'm beginning to think we should lynch Peter Venkman before him.

[Guardian]

question on general theory: is it sometimes better to not call out a scum so they won't be more careful, and then to point out fishy things after many slipups, or should I/we point out stuff as soon as we see it?

How prophetic.

Haha. I guess a lot of people differ on this.

I can definitely see how BOTH Peter and Occult would be scum, especially Peter.

If they're both scum, I have serious reservations as to them being scum on the same team - I have them as dissociated in my notes.

I reread and see no such disassociation, maybe I'll rereread?

The thing I'd have to really disagree with is John as not pro-town. Why in hell would he defend me so much if not pro-town?

To gain brownie points. Defending townies isn't a tell as to townieness or scumness, in my experience,

especially

early.

Yeah but there may not be an SK, and an easy way to find out if this is plausible is to wait a night and see if there are more than one kills. Interesting that you Freudian slipped John's name into the quote.

Thesp/all: thoughts on Paradoxscum? I could definitely see P&P scumpair, much more obviously than I can see V&V.

I didn't see him as notable. I'll be happy to review.

Cool. I see a few things, in his and Ichigo's posts.

Mustafa has contributed very little to the game, how about him too?

I think you've said it all.

Yeah? And actively lurking seems scummy, no?

I also hate Thesp's playstyle of pointing fingers, with no proof of anthing.
since avi will almost undoubtably replaced in my opinion, ill Unvote, Vote: Thesp untill he tells us why im an SK, and not just cause a 5 year old said so.

I'm intrigued by your decision to vote for me based on a playstyle, while showing no indication of actually

thinking

I'm scum. That's a scum mentality.

John has been doing this a bit, but it seems to me that this may be a fallacy of John and not a fallacy of Johnscum. That's kinda WIFOM though... Again I think waiting a night makes more sense if you are convinced he is an SK, more likely based on numbers and setup is that he is scum.

But giving us no reason is a very anti-town play.

I respectfully disagree with this. Just because it annoys you does not mean it's bad. I think the responsibility is upon you to show:
(1) Since you think that failing to give reasoning is anti-town, please show reasoning that justifies your position that failing to provide reasoning is anti-town; and
(2) Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the

opposite

. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not? Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action

X

, even if

X

is unintentionally harmful.)

I don't think you'll be able to. Of course, you're also welcome to work on the gut feeling of the above, but please understand me when I continue to assert you are incorrect.

Yeah I feel this is a playstyle difference.

I believe he needs to justify his accusations. He can keep them to himself if he wants but he's not going to get any support like that.

Okay. I don't mind this approach in the least, especially since I may or may not be trying to drum up support.

If you are town, don't you want town to lynch people you are sure are scum?

Instead of questioning way he thinks he has this game down, you basicly asked if he could complete this game in 10 days.

We can do this if we have a vig and we turbo-vote.

Horray, Beer! I mean, Horray winning before my vacation!

Seems like scum, not because it supports someone I suspect(I don't even suspect guardian that much, just more than anyone else), but primarily since i don't see why you wouldn't give your reasoning.

That's fine with me, maybe even optimal.

Interesting bit there, it's fine with you that he doesn't understand why you wouldn't give reasoning. This means you're fine with his suspicion of you. This leads to various interesting conclusions.

If you've just read the topic you should be able to see that several of us are suspicious of his activity. How about filling us in? Don't you want to help him and us by preventing us from lynching someone wrongly?

Oh, I missed the votecount where Guardian was at lynch -1. I will double check for that.

To be fair, a few people were suspicious of me, I got to lynch -3 at worst I think, maybe -2. I think their reasons for being suspicious were ill founded though .

I think it's a very scummy thing to do, to just casually remark that someone is totally innocent in your mind. It seems like something that would only be done to

1. Throw a little doubt our way. Just enough to make a difference but not be totally obvious

or

2. Try to gain someone else's trust(see directly below VVV)

How would (1) obtain? Also, does it look like I've gained anyone's trust? I'm uncertain that my technique is conducive to trust-forming.

Also, I <3 Occult. I'm beginning to think we should lynch Peter Venkman before him.

1) Yeah I don't understand.
2) I trust you implicitly. NOT. . I like your style, and discussion, though.
Why <3 Occult? Subtle ploy to cause it to make sense for you to agree with me about Peter?


I reread and can see where you may be getting a V&V connection,

maybe, maybe

it is real. VRK seemed town to me, but on the reread I have doubt.

I see no Occult/Peter disassociation, but I am fine with that. Even though I have doubts about other players, Peter is still my most likely scum, we can worry about if Occult could also be scum if Peter in fact shows up as scum. Yeah, wait, why am I voting on a lurker who will give no info whichever team he shows up as, and will likely be replaced, instead of my scum choice?

unvote vote: Peter Venkman

. I could definitely be wrong about this, but if my average feeling for a player on 1-100 where 0 is not scum, 50 is maybe scum maybe not, and 100 is definitely scum I am about 75 with Peter.

Avinyl... meh I see him as scummy but there is so little to go on.

John, maybe scum maybe not, imo not.

[Raffles]

(1) Since you think that failing to give reasoning is anti-town, please show reasoning that justifies your position that failing to provide reasoning is anti-town; and
(2) Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the opposite. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not? Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action X, even if X is unintentionally harmful.)

Eaaasy.

1) You came up with quite a lot of bold statement. Basically you walked in, started pointing fingers to assign antagonist roles. When questioned for reason, you flat out refused to give any. This confuses your bog-standard town. What is he doing? Does he actually have a read on anyone? Or is he a scum who just used a blatant WIFOM on us? During the night, cop investigations are used on you, when they could be better used for targets like lurkers, who are really hard to tell their alignment. And if you are town, this is a waste of investigation that could be prevented by showing a less anti-town play. During the day, we are going to take whatever you say with a pinch of salt. What if you actually had a good investigation? The previous anti-town play would backfire on you on your credibility.

2)I repeat this many times... you are getting the whole concept wrong.

Scum => anti-town ("=>" means implies)

Anti-town =/= scum

Anti-town = Good lynch

The last statement is true because at later stage of the game, it is detrimental to have an anti-town townie. If it is to get to lylo situation, a anti-town townie could throw a town side completely off. The bottom line is this. Lynching anti-towns should be up there with lynching all liars.

By the way, do you realize that question 2) you've thrown at me is an utter thick concoction of WIFOM?


And the above argument is just presuming if you are town. If we presume you are scum then we got even better reasons to lynch.

[Occult]

Why <3 Occult?

Why not?


Also guardian your last post proves it, even though you disagree on minor points you completly assume that thesp is town.

[gorckat]

Did the scum get a chance to talk pre-game?

[Raffles]

Mod

[b/]

Did the scum get a chance to talk pre-game?

Although they normally do in most games. I can't imagine how this one would be any different.

[Raffles]

Argh

Mod

, see the post above.