Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[talah]

This thread gets my "Getting Drunk but Before Actually Drunk" post before I eke off to the land of more conservative and less self-destructive resisting the urge to post every single thing I think-land. Land. Yay! \o/

I'm sure you're not interested.

My current status:

- I *am* worried about both peng and Desp, who as yet have both failed to answer my pingback questions on who *aside* from TN/Katen they found most suspicious. I'd like to know why. Additionally the original tete-a-tete about setups seemed to be a conversation they were having together rather than an open question (although I did think it was a decent alternative to general RVS shenanigans, it's just that I felt like an outsider - almost like the convo could have been pre-planned). Unfortunately that evaporated pretty quickly after the Hydra Knowledge Scumslip Shitfight of the Century.

- I did wonder about Pim originally (this in relation to Pasch's comment) and ultimately settled on town-leaning for the slot (as I could see cheeky-scum saying something like haha-you-might-be-right-but-I'm-not-telling-you, but I could also see it coming from town - probably at the time more so because I didn't like TN's approach) and liked Justin's entrance and statement that he's open to explaining his reasoning. HOWEVER... I appreciate the alternative viewpoint on that and most recently I am having trouble understanding just what the relevance of the question being asked of me was. I had a view, rethought it, changed tack and I'm not sure what is ambiguous about that, nor why the single post is flagged as suspicious as opposed to everything else. But we have a date over the next couple of days to nut out the reasoning behind the line of questioning (I'm taking that liberty since it was offered), and I don't currently have any concern that questions I might have will be avoided.

- Still not worried about SeeEmpty. The only thing which is currently out is ignoring beast's defence of Katen, however, I see the singleminded lurker-push as having stubborned up on Katen to prove a point.

- Lurkers-who-I-haven't-played-with-before - Hi, and yay for you! How do I put this nicely... Will "please fucking contribute opinions so I and everyone else can get a read on you" do it? To be clear, I don't even care if your opinions are bad - I just want to know where you're coming from right now.

- regarding beast, at this stage I would have liked a whole lot more votes to see how he wanted to explain where he was coming from under the reality of the threat of lynch. Looks like that's not happening right now. I have no problem lynching Katen at the end of the day if only to get rid of a ton of wifom and allow generally reasonable discussion. But I don't like the idea of letting the day go unused either.

I'm have a little muse on the best option and then change my vote I think.

(and with this wall of text you can officially consider me finished thought-dumping on the thread)

[talah]

UNVOTE: beast
VOTE: Desp

(mainly because I want strong reads on these guys and neither are giving much, and the alternative being peng would mean that Katen would hijack the discussion and yaddayadda)

Wagon, anyone?

Desp, who are your current scum and town reads and why are you being so quiet?

[Cheery Dog]

Votecount 1.10

Katengecchi

(5) Paschendale, Finglove, penguin_alien, Voidwalker1234, SeeEmpty

tn5421

(3) Desperado, mlearn2, beastcharizard

Desperado

(1) talah

SeeEmpty

(1) Katengecchi

Not Voting

(2) tn5421, Justin Playfair


With 12 Alive, 7 vote are required to lynch
Deadline: Wednesday, May 14, 2014, at 9:40 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2014-05-14 21:39:58)

[beastcharizard]

@SeeEmpty:

What questions have I avoided? I explained my tn read while quoting the posts.

[tn5421]

I'm really concerned that Katengecchi is going to get derplynched and flip town.

[Desperado]

The first 2 posts are implying it's good that Paschendale was the one who rolled IC, which implies that Paschendale is an otherwise naturally scummy player even as town. The 3rd one is him talking down to Pasch.

I wasn't implying anything, I was being very explicit about my inability to read Pasch (which has been proven several times over) and his self-professed meta of always getting mislynched.

And yes, I was "talking down" to him because he was interferring with my questions to tn while simultaneously giving him a newbcard to use. It wasn't helpful and he needed to know that.

[Desperado]

Desp, who are your current scum and town reads and why are you being so quiet?

Pasch
Finglove
Justin Playfair
talah

Penguin_Alien
SeeEmpty

------------------ <-- Line of Lynchability

beastcharizard
Voidwalker
mlearn2

Katen
tn

ps I'm not being quiet

[Desperado]

I'm really concerned that Katengecchi is going to get derplynched and flip town.

What is leading you to characterize Katen is a derplynch?

[Desperado]

I *am* worried about both peng and Desp, who as yet have both failed to answer my pingback questions on who *aside* from TN/Katen they found most suspicious. I'd like to know why.

I feel like I've already said this once, but I don't just make shit up if it isn't there. The last scum is probably among those who are actually being quiet.

[Desperado]

@ Katen: links to your two most representative town games?

[Paschendale]

Desp, who are your current scum and town reads and why are you being so quiet?

Pasch
Finglove
Justin Playfair
talah

Penguin_Alien
SeeEmpty

------------------ <-- Line of Lynchability

beastcharizard
Voidwalker
mlearn2

Katen
tn

ps I'm not being quiet

I like most of this, and would keep each person on the same side of the line, but might change the order. Except one. Why a scumread on mlearn? Other than the near-complete absence, that is.

[Desperado]

It's more of a scum lean and for precisely the reason you said.

[penguin_alien]

I can't help but feel this is a bit scummy, even if I understand that you simply don't want to argue. Denying information is one of scum's primary tools.

Sure, if new information was going to come out of that. I don't think it will, so I'm not interested in spamming up the thread with more, "No, you!" walls, which is about where the whole thing devolves in the end.

Bottom line, I think the way they approached the IC was scummy, and all the talk of how they couldn't work with conf-town who was scum reading them sounds pretty cheap. Nothing since then has changed my mind.

talah asked where I am on other reads. So far I feel like I'm getting more town reads than scum reads, so:

Town to varying degrees: Justin, talah, SeeEmpty, Desperado (liking the relaxed style so far based on what I remember of his scum game). With me and Paschendale, that's half the game.

Everyone else:

beastcharizard--I kind of like his ramp-up as time goes on; he's a good player who cottons on to scum as the game progresses, and I expect to see good hunting from him.

Finglove--His early game thoughts are all right, but he backs off SeeEmpty quite quickly. Given that SeeEmpty got towny right quick in my estimation, it's not insane, but he was easily placated. The early stance against policy lynches isn't bad either. Not a strong town read--something doesn't set right 100%, but not my top priority.

mlearn2--Had zero recollection of him, but since I haven't ever interacted with him before this game, that's possibly on me. I like his entry post, everything from there starts torpedoing that read. After that point I get very little sense of what he thinks, as everything's either inconclusive or questioning other players without much follow-up. Scum read, and would probably vote him if I didn't feel like driving Katengecchi into the ground instead.

tn5421--unlikely to be scum with Katengecchi, and more to the point I want to see where he goes from here. I feel right now like he's a Wrong Place/Wrong Time townie. Jury's out, meh.

Voidwalker1234--There's some stuff that pings. The way he describes what he sees as scummy feels artificial, like he's looking to seize upon reasons to scum read people instead of actually scum hunt. Hate the whole 'unvote scum read due to replacement' when the slot's role PM hasn't changed.

Katengecchi: Asked and answered, your Honor.

So yeah, feeling stubborn about Katengecchi, would lynch mlearn2 as well, wouldn't defend Voidwalker1234. Those count as scum reads?

[SeeEmpty]

Then allow me to finally reply:

1. "I don't negotiate with terrorists." = "that thing scum do where they talk down to others in their interactions in order to create an air of arrogance, to avoid being pressured"

2. "If I ignore a question, it's because either the question is entirely pointless or your argument is entirely false" = "I don't care what is your point of view. I think it is entirely pointless or false hence I'm ignoring it."

And also to conclude your point of view:

1. "I don't understand why is he doing that. He must be scum."
2. "I don't get why he is posting that. He must be scum."
3. "He has doubt about BC's post = he think BC's post is scummy."
4. "Visiting the forum, posting somewhere else but not here is NOT actively lurking."

In my opinion, actively lurking, as opposed to not being able to log in, is a primarily

scum motivated

action.

If you're here, you can post, or you can build a post, or you simply not sign up for a game if you can't actually play.

Exactly. I'd add "or request for a replacement if you think you can't commit to the game".

5. "I'm town reading him. So he *MUST* be town. And hence I'm going to strongly defend him."
6. "I think from the dynamic of the question and defense I can see if the accuser is actually scum motivated. But forget about that. I'm going to call the questions bullshit anyway since I don't quite get the purpose."
7. "I did not answer question for him, I only call all the questions bullshit and only trying to make him look bad because I don't understand the purpose. So I'm not defending him before he answer the questions."
8. "I don't care what the content is but less posts = lurking."

And for the record:

No. I don't think a town have any reason to defend another player unless he is sure that player is also town. Not quite sure, not almost sure, not 99.99% sure, but only with complete certainty.

My conclusion:

Sorry, but the reasons katen gave are making no sense to me at all. They all sounded like made up reasons, just to show he has reasons.

The reasons of his scum read on me is laughable. I asked the questions for 1 reason: to get information out of BC by making him explaining his view and reads. If katen fails to get that, it's fine. What makes him think I'll not explain them? But to preliminarily conclude that as scum motivated is just...

The reason of his BC defend is equally ridiculous. The only way he can be *that* certain of a player is town is 1. He is an investigative role of some sort and he get a town result from BC, which cannot be the case since this is day 1, or 2. He is scum. This is not a 100% scum tell but to me scum defending a town is still quite possible, since when there's a flip the scum can go:"See? Told you he's town." and get credit from it.

I agree that we're just going in circles. We're explaining mostly the same thing regarding our view, just with different words. I agree that we stop this and let the rest of the players to be the judges of the case based on our discussion.

[SeeEmpty]

@SeeEmpty:

What questions have I avoided? I explained my tn read while quoting the posts.

Please refer to post #233.

@tn: You've been in the game since the beginning. You did some scum hunting and some reads before, but the posts you made recently are kind of lacking in content. For that I'm curious about:

1. Who do you think is scum, and,
2. Why are your not voting?

[Cheery Dog]

Prodding Finglove

[tn5421]

I'm watching the Katen vs SeeEmpty fight and trying to find out if either of you are scum.

Katen is very confident given that they have 5 votes on them.

I'm uneasy about SeeEmpty, Voidwalker, mlearn2, and penguin_alien right now.
I don't think that Katen is scum, just that Saki is having a hard time keeping his/her cool. That's not alignment indicative, in my opinion.

[beastcharizard]

talah: Mildly suspicious (see: townbloc)

Desperado: Uses WWE images. How dare thee! Has played setup before. Mild suspicion, unlikely to flip scum.
penguin_alien: Seems comfortable talking about hypotheticals (see: setup modifications). Mild suspicion, fo now.
Katengecchi: I've got a slight townread on you for now. According to talah you are a hydra of Saki and Koromo.
Cheery Dog: Greentexting outside of 4chan. Suspicious :3 (don't take this particular one seriously)

This is where they started scum reading Talah. This is not even a reason to join a wagon. They are just following whatever Katen does at this point.

[beastcharizard]

The reason of his BC defend is equally ridiculous. The only way he can be *that* certain of a player is town is 1. He is an investigative role of some sort and he get a town result from BC, which cannot be the case since this is day 1, or 2. He is scum. This is not a 100% scum tell but to me scum defending a town is still quite possible, since when there's a flip the scum can go:"See? Told you he's town." and get credit from it.

I am 99% sure you were scum reading me so this seems like you are keeping your options open as hell. "If either of them flip town it is obviously scum WKing the other one."

So do you town read me now or something and I missed where that happened?

[tn5421]

That was also during RVS, BC.

[beastcharizard]

You don't give reads during RVS.

[tn5421]

Post 34 was my rvs readlist. Please lie more.

[Justin Playfair]

beastcharizard

is where I cross over from my more town than scum reads to my more scum than town. Let me start by saying that my feelings about beast don't rise from from the same well as SeeEmpty's. Beast is hardly alone in not participating much. My problem is with most of what beast has contributed.

First there is the post below, which I didn't like when I first read it and have come to like even less as time has gone by:

For not interested in scum hunting and lurking.

Actually I just recently played a game of stack the deck but the game was never officially finished. I wanted to make sure I could use the game as reference material before I really started to dive into this game. I like to reference other games of the same type that I have played.

It turns out I am allowed to reference the game which is great. In that game the mafia did not recruit the goon. I don't know the final role of mafia though or what powers they took because the game mod never actually finished the game. If you are wondering what game it was it was Wifom City. It is still in the active games part of this subforum.

Also, why do you think I am lurking?

This seemed like a curious reason to give for not participating in the first place, but finishing it off by asking why SeeEmpty thought he was lurking seemed stranger still, because the first part of this post surely does seem to be beast giving a reason for lurking and that last question seems to challenge SeeEmpty's assertion that he was.

Two things after this made me more uneasy yet about the above post. One was the (at least revealed to town) fruit from having waited until beast's previous game ended, which has so far amounted to this:

My other game is officially over. I asked what setup the scum team chose since it wasn't revealed but I have yet to get an answer. I know for a fact they didn't choose to recruit the traitor though.

and this:

For the record in the other game scum chose no power roles for themselves.

Both tacked on in a pro forma fashion at the end of long posts.

Later, when SeeEmpty calls beast out for posting in another game, beast answers:

@SeeEmpty
The other game is 1000 times more entertaining to me. I am getting into this game too now though. It was hard to get into this one with the other game I played of this being in finishing limbo. That game is out of limbo now though so it is all good.

To get things straight, you are scum reading me for lurking correct?

Well, there is nothing wrong with finding another game more entertaining, but this is the second time beast asks SeeEmpty if it's lurking he's being scum read for, despite the fact that right here SeeEmpty very clearly stated why he was voting for beast.

There's a slipperiness to all of this that really bothers me. And though I agree completely with beast's assessment of Talah and for the most part agree with his case against tn5421, the way he made the case strikes me as somehow off, just going through the first hundred posts and pulling out various scum indicative behavior of tn's (there is plenty to choose from) and putting them in a list without context or connection. For the record though, I don't think beast's missing the vote from tn is particularly telling one way or the other.


beastcharizard, is there anything from your former game that you can share with us that might be helpful to town? Anything that has informed your scumhunting?

Could you explain why you were so uncertain as to exactly why SeeEmpty was scumreading you?

[beastcharizard]

A RVS reads list? That makes no sense what so ever.

[beastcharizard]

The other game chose no power roles in order to maximize their chances of being able to fake claim a PR when they were going to be lynched. I had never even thought of that idea so any claims should be taken with a grain of salt.

It is always better to have a game to reference too when deciding who is scum and who isn't. Since I have experience with the game and there are only a finite number of possible ways to play the game I feel that I have a slightly better chance at finding scum behavior for this specific mechanic.

I didn't think I was lurking so someone scum reading me for something I am not doing just seemed absurd to me. I was hoping they at least had some sort of logical reason added onto lurking to scum read me but they didn't. Now they apparently town read me since they all but said Katen is WKing me.

Finally, hardly participating? What has your slot done?