In post 1630, zMuffinMan wrote:bulba wrote:you write entire posts about how they can't possibly be scum, but then when asked, you reiterate that you don't have a town read on them and that they're vig bait
i call it as i see it
nobody has presented convincing reasons for thinking TIP is scum and i don't see good reason to think he's scum
it was the same with aronis D1
i am fully aware i could be wrong on either of these, and they
are
both players i would like to see vig killed rather than lynched because they're very easy lynches to push on players who may or may not be scum
the fact that you don't understand my position here means you either aren't reading or you're deliberating misrepresenting what i'm actually saying
I just have a problem with you hard defending someone, and then when someone asks you about it, you say, "Oh, I wasn't townreading them.". That sort of refusal to take a stance really bothers me.
In post 1630, zMuffinMan wrote:
bulba wrote:The point is that your play in that game felt more natural than it does in this one
yes and my point is that i think you're just making this up and it's such a vague claim that if i asked you to back it up, you'd say you can't or it's gut or something instead of proving it
so it's a very easy thing for you to say as scum, and seeing as it's a bullshit claim that's really, really vague, you can't be expected to back it up. great.
My gut tends to be scary accurate sometimes. Normally, I'm trying to figure out what I noticed subconciously. Gut's the basis for the read, which I develop as the game goes on. It's just another tool to find scum.
In post 1643, zMuffinMan wrote:look, the first thing you quoted was a quote strip of a post where i later answered the question (i.e. i wasn't ACTUALLY deflecting anything and i DID answer the fucking question), the second and third things you quoted are really fucking easy questions to ask (like... any player, regardless of alignment, can come up with those questions - it's really just asking for a read to be explained)
Why do you have a problem with me asking for reads to be explained?
Go go counterwagon!
This is false. I've given reasons for all of my scumreads, and I am not scumreading everyone who disagrees with me. This is just a quick and dirty discredit to follow that opportunistic vote you just layed down.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:some of PZ's questions were kinda worthless, but others (like ones asking about reads or asking for elaboration or whatever) were, at the very least, game-relevant and questions designed to get information from players.
Let me get this straight. If PZ asks questions designed to get information from players, he's town, but if I ask questions to get information from players (like asking for them to explain reads, which you just called me out on), then I'm scum. Please make up your mind here.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
I also thought the way PZ was offering stances and making statements about different things came across as kinda townish, and that's something Bulba was overlooking altogether in this attack.
He seemed disinterested, which is why I picked up on his questions being faked. Maybe that was me reading him wrong, but that's what I took away from reading his posts.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
The other thing that seems to be a theme this game is, somewhat ironically, Bulba asking questions to appear like he's scum hunting when he's not actually scum hunting and trying to figure out various players' motivations!
Again, how can you claim this is the case and then call me scum for inquiring into players' reasoning? The two views don't gel.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
In post 452, Bulbazak wrote:
What do you like about it? I'd think you'd be expecting me to be more confrontational as town.
I'm of mixed opinions about this. On the one hand, it's something I could potentially see coming from a town-Bulba who genuinely thinks it's weird that someone would read him as town based on his entrance. On the other hand, this came across as kind of awkward and a little forced, and not really a sensible question to ask at this stage. Also, it points to him being conscious of exactly how he was playing and how he thought he'd be perceived from playing in that way, which is something I generally associate with scum more than town. I suppose it's possibly town conscious of a change in playstyle, too, but meh. Tl;dr is it looked awkward.
I tunneled Talah hard in FE:A. I would have thought he'd be suspicious about a naked vote.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
The question to Talah was kind of awkward - asking whether someone has done something before as town doesn't really seem to serve much purpose, especially if they haven't but also haven't done something like that before as scum.
I haven't seen Talah as scum, and I couldn't remember if he'd posted anything like that before as town.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
#619/ISO#10 is where he finally tries to justify the comment that I was saying Aronis was likely town, by pulling up a bunch of quotes in which I don't say any such thing. I suppose it's entirely possible that this was town-derp, but I think it's more likely scum who isn't actually reading closely or analysing what's being said and is instead looking for something easy to call out. Not only that, but he claims at this point that I said I was reading Aronis as scum - which I didn't say, either. I made it quite clear that I didn't have a read on Aronis, but that I thought his play was anti-town and I didn't think that was alignment indicative and seeing as the majority of opinions on Aronis being scum were based on anti-town play, I was merely pointing out it wasn't a good basis for calling him scum. This is fairly simple. Others who were following could easily understand this. Brian even pointed it out himself at one stage. And yet, Bulba is either misinterpreting what I was saying or deliberately misrepresenting it.
See, this is my problem with your defense. It's semantics based. You come off as incredibly nervous and not wanting to be connected to any sort of read on Aronis or TIP, which comes across as scummy to me. I still think you were overly defensive, as you were going overboard trying to dismiss the idea of any connection to Aronis. It's essentially the "He doth protest too much" principle.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
#628/ISO#13 is where he finally acknowledges that his entire reason for linking me to Aronis was bullshit but says... I'm still scum with Aronis because... if I were town I would have clarified I didn't have a read instead of saying I didn't have a town read... Like, fuck me. This is just him trying to make the conclusion fit the evidence, it's not him analysing motivation or doing any sort of critical thinking whatsoever. And again he talks about me placing priority on separating myself from Aronis, when that WASN'T what I was doing - I was merely clarifying why his accusations were complete bullshit based on a flawed understanding of what I was actually saying.
The Tl;dr of this whole thing is that, rather than adapting to new information, Bulba was peddling the same bullshit the whole time, regardless of the many times he had to backtrack on his original stance. This isn't town play. This is scum trying to make shit fit his own agenda. He is constantly pushing his own agenda rather than critically thinking about new information.
So you show evidence of my seeing new evidence and reanalyzing, and then say that I saw evidence and didn't reanalyze. Okay.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
What's awkward about
#682/ISO#15 is not only the fact that Bulba criticises TIP for having static reads (which is something evident in his own reads, since they aren't "evolving" based on new information, they're just ignoring it or trying to make it fit the previous reads), I think this is a really lazy meta assessment of TIP and also a gross generalisation of TIP's play. I don't think this is genuine analysis of TIP's play, it's scum trying to make a sweeping generalisation and hoping he doesn't get called out on it.
First, my reads have not been static, and anybody who actually reads my ISO should see evidence of them evolving. Second, I stand by my analysis of TIP's play. As town, he actually does things. As scum, he tends to coast. He's not scumhunting and trying to get by with as little as possible. He's scum this game.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
#858 is also rather meh; just another example of a poor meta read based off a single game (FEA) which is, again, either dumb as town or easy as scum. I mean, it turns out KA was town, but the reasoning here wasn't good. If I could be bothered, I'd look through his town and scum games and see whether he typically defends people based on meta from a single game, but I don't think I can really be bothered since it's not a major issue.
*Shows how meta reads can be accurate* *Then dismisses all meta reads*
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
up to this point, I'm not sure he has explained the Qwints read, or really commented or questioned Qwints... he's called Qwints scum a couple times, but nothing else
I find it interesting how you complain about my reads and how I'm not outing a read immediately when I get it, yet you never ask me about how I got to a conclusion when I state it. If you have a question, ask me. Don't complain after the fact.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
This is followed by
#1186/ISO#33 where he makes an empty comment about thinking something is wrong with that list but................ does nothing to figure out what it is or elaborate on what he means by this. It's the kind of empty comment I like to throw around when I know I'm gonna be doing a shit load of backtracking at a later stage when my scum reads start flipping scum. "Oh fuck, I knew something was wrong with my list! Guess I should have done something about it!"
When I put together my reads list to show how I was reading the game, I kept getting the impression that something was off. Not in my scumreads, though, I felt solid about that. I just looked at my town and null reads and felt that something wasn't quite right. I don't have enough information now, but I do plan on going back later and reexamining everything.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
#1482/ISO#38 is the recent vote on TIP. He kinda, sorta, maybe explains his TIP read but the thing about this is that none of this is new information that's changed since the last time he posted, so the timing felt really awkward. The comment about him buddying Nacho was pretty awful and looked like an example of scum trying to use a poor wiki-tell to justify a poor vote. Also, regarding the other reasons for the TIP read, they're pretty fucking weak. It boils down to TIP tunneling talah and including her in a list of low-hanging fruit while criticising Agar for pushing low-hanging fruit. I'm kind of meh on this given it seems to come from a misinterpretation of what TIP was saying (obviously there are times when pushing players who could be described as low-hanging fruit will happen - I don't believe TIP was saying the act itself was scummy, and I don't really know why Bulba would try to push that angle). As a side note, I'm not really reading any of the early voters on TIP as scum here, and I could see this as the opportunistic-scum vote hiding amongst the other players pushing a mislynch. I suppose this argument fails if TIP is actually scum, but whatever.
Look, more TIP hard defending. But that's right, you don't think he's town or scum. You're forever stuck at null with him, which is strange, given that you're defending him all the time.
In post 1650, zMuffinMan wrote:
As a side note, there's a real... I dunno, lack of conviction in some of his pushes. Like he's pushing people, but he doesn't really care who gets lynched, as long as it's a mislynch. The stuff with Qwints at the end of D1 is a minor example of this, but if both PZ and TIP happen to be town, his play today is the same stuff. He doesn't really care who gets lynched (like, it's not like you stubbornly pushing Reck D1, even though you backed off when people told you it wasn't happening, you at least showed you were disappointed in it. Bulba, though? Meh. Move on to the next target. Wheeeee.)
I very much care about who gets lynched, and I prefer that they be my scum reads. However, I also keep other considerations in mind, including which scum read is more likely to get lynched. Qwints was a scumread who I felt I could get lynched near deadline. I can't see how you don't get that.
However, that being said, I have a hard time believing you'd go through the trouble to go through my ISO like that as scum. It'd be way easier to misrep my current posts and bluster. That, and while I disagree with your analysis, the work does seem a little solid, although not as in-depth as you led us to believe. You didn't really analyze my posts as much as you generalized them. That's probably due to conf. bias, though. I also looked back at my room breakdown like I had planned given Oversoul's last post, and I have a hard time believing that you and Aronis could both be scum and both be in the same room. I didn't think much about it the first time, but coming back to it now, the idea just seems absurd. I still don't like you posting, but I'm having a harder time seeing you as scum in light of the evidence.
You should totally vote TIP.
In post 1686, Oversoul wrote:Muffin, I'll throw you a bone. When I originally read Bulba's iso I thought to myself that Bulba wasn't exactly being super townie. His follow ups on a lot of his questions for lack of a better word were not existent and he seems to be happy to tunnel with you. However, he is doing something I do as town. I make walls that seemingly have little to do with the game. I get pressured for it ALL the time actually (read Farside's pressure of me earlier in this game). It helps me wrap my mind around the overall consensus of the game and see how the cogs are spinning for some players. I think I see town motivation in most of Bulba's stuff because of my own actions as town and how misconstrued they can be. Maybe I'm too sympathetic.
I will support you in pressuring Bulba to come up with some better scum reads though. Overall, he has not developed his scum reads (at least on you) despite spending such a large amount of time on it.
I hate this pandering. You state that you think I'm town, but yet you're going to vote me anyway because Muffin wants you to? Seriously, what is this?
In post 1695, Aronis wrote:OMG. You guys are sad. It hurts my head to even try reading this game. We should all calm down and take turns stating our thoughts nicely.
This is incredibly fake. He wants to look like he's doing something, and he continues that charade in the posts that follow. The questions he asks are to look busy. He's not interested in the answers. There's also something about the way he entered that seems off to me. I have a theory about it, but I want to keep it to myself for now.
This reminds me of Defense of Hyrule.
What happened in those 4 pages of nobody talking about me that made you change your read?
On to page 70.
