Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[penguin_alien]

Saki, why are you trying to undermine the town IC?

[Katengecchi]

Saki, why are you trying to undermine the town IC?

More important question is, why do you think the purpose of my post was to undermine him? There's nothing in my post that remotely hints to that, and it's like you're doing the exact same thing the IC is doing, which is, misrepping my words.

-Saki

[Voidwalker1234]

@mlearn: Talah feels eh, to me. I will need to look at her posts to get a read.

[Paschendale]

@Pasch: What is the difference between undecided and null? Also, why Tomagachi over pim?

Undecided is that there is info, but there are reasons to think town and reasons to think scum. Null means just not enough info.

Pim's actions are irksome, but could just be playstyle. Katen looks more like deliberate scum-motivated action.

Saki, why are you trying to undermine the town IC?

He's just mad that I'm scumreading him and he can't retaliate.

[Katengecchi]

3. Generally, the Talah vs Katen (mostly Saki) argument looks a lot worse for Saki. In 27, Talah makes a comment about undisclosed hydras. It wasn't anything about not knowing who makes up the Katen hydra, just disliking that hydras sometimes don't disclose. Between this and point 1, Saki is just trying to find things to attack Talah on. These are not good reasons to scumread someone. The Katen heads should know this, and trying so hard to make something out of nothing looks duplicitous.

Then you know nothing about early game reads. What the actual fuck were you expecting from a read based on one post? It's not supposed to be some god tiered scumread, it's a starting point for more conversation to develop from. Get it now, or wanna continue?

Saki, why are you trying to undermine the town IC?

1. We weren't the only ones doing this, so why do you selectively call out us and ignore everyone else (e.g. desp)?
2. This is blatantly buddying the IC - sucking up to conftowns is always a giant red flag for me. This also explains 1 in that your read so ~conveniently~ happens to match his.

Overall, I'm calling BS and my own vote to move.

Vote: penguin_alien

-Koromo

[talah]

Popping in to say that I'd be just as happy with a Katen lynch as tn. Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top to me. His actions since then appear to be instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there and to read into things which haven't even had time to eventuate. There's a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression which I'm not reading as town.

Apologies for the brevity.

[Katengecchi]

Popping in to say that I'd be just as happy with a Katen lynch as tn. Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top to me. His actions since then appear to be instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there and to read into things which haven't even had time to eventuate.

There's a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression which I'm not reading as town.

Apologies for the brevity.

1. We're making early pressure moves in order to make new information appear. Why is this alignment indicative?
2. Do you have any other scumreads besides us and tn? It feels like all your scumreads are derived from the general impression of the gamestate.

Also, what's your read on penguin?

-Koromo

[penguin_alien]

Did I give reads without noticing it again? Sleep-reading is a real thing, kids.

Mostly skimming now, but talah was an easy scum read in FEA, so I'm taking a dim view of the early scum reads there.

[tn5421]

@70
No, the WWE thing is pure RVS.

Discussing the open frame mechanic gives ideas to the scumteam on how to frame certain townies as scum when it really isn't necessary. I understand the fluff posts, considering it was page one, and that is why I'm not voting you right now.

Which point prompted you to vote for me?

@mlearn: Talah feels eh, to me. I will need to look at her posts to get a read.

I just don't have enough on Talah to justify keeping my vote on him/her.

UNVOTE: Talah

Pim's actions are irksome, but could just be playstyle. Katen looks more like deliberate scum-motivated action.

Saki, why are you trying to undermine the town IC?

He's just mad that I'm scumreading him and he can't retaliate

.

Can you back up that statement, mister confirmed town?

Popping in to say that I'd be just as happy with a Katen lynch as tn. Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top to me. His actions since then appear to be instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there and to read into things which haven't even had time to eventuate.

There's a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression which I'm not reading as town.

Apologies for the brevity.

1. We're making early pressure moves in order to make new information appear. Why is this alignment indicative?
2.

Do you have any other scumreads besides us and tn?

It feels like all your scumreads are derived from the general impression of the gamestate.

Also, what's your read on penguin?

-Koromo

I bolded the questions that I'm interested in hearing answers from Talah on.

[SeeEmpty]

Ok so I see no one else noticed it, the thing that pinged me about talah's first post was that he put down a townbloc of himself and the IC, which if he's town it should be obvious why he's there and it should be obvious to everyone why the IC is there, and everyone's townblocs will look the same (Yourself + the IC) so it felt like it was an unnecessary addition to his first post that he made for the sake of making himself look town rather than anything.

Which makes her "townbloc" claim nothing but a joke to me. That is null at best.

I can accept your reasoning on why you are not moving your vote away from her based on her later reactions, although I do not quite agree with some of them.

...it's a starting point for more conversation to develop from...

Okay. This makes sense.

@Empty, you clearly don't know the purpose And like I said, I'm waiting on part of its purpose. Don't worry. It will come and you can then form an opinion on it;)

The last time I saw someone did that was scum trying to create confusion among town. And in that aspect you certainly succeeded. You better have a damn good reason about it, and you better do more in your next post.

If I state what the purpose was, wouldn't it defeat the purpose ?

Hmm, how about no?

I considered it a serious (i.e. non RVS) vote because it came with the tag line "Serious vote". I was surprised you chose to ignore that.

It depends on context. On that context it just doesn't make much sense to me to a point I just treat is as a joke vote in response to talah's joke claim. This is not the same for post #39.

On the same note, notice that people posted before or after my post are also random voting with arbitrary reasons. What do you think about that?

I don't see how Talah is scum at all. Their posts felt towny to me.

Who do you think is scum then?

@Talah: I want to know if your vote on tn is still based on the "What undisclosed hydras?" tell or is there any other reason you think you'd want to lynch him today?

@Desperado:You don't seem too concern about Pim's vote on you at all. Reason? Also, explain your post #24?

For now, UNVOTE: Voidwalker1234

[Desperado]

Discussing the open frame mechanic gives ideas to the scumteam on how to frame certain townies as scum when it really isn't necessary.

Can you please give this more than one sentence of explanation? I'm still not getting it.

[Desperado]

@Desperado:You don't seem too concern about Pim's vote on you at all. Reason? Also, explain your post #24?

Should I be? Even he's not interested in talking about it.

#24 was a response to the end of Talah's #23 where she said nothing had pinged her either direction thus far.

[tn5421]

Discussing the open frame mechanic gives ideas to the scumteam on how to frame certain townies as scum when it really isn't necessary.

Can you please give this more than one sentence of explanation? I'm still not getting it.

I don't understand why you want to give scum more room to maneuver in. I don't really think it requires more explanation. IMO setup talk is best left to after-game analysis.

[Desperado]

How are we giving scum more room to maneuver? They've already made their choice.

If this were a closed setup then yean, postgame away. But it's an open and getting everyone's mindset on the open mechanic on record isn't a bad thing--this is the thing you are supposedly against, and you are not doing a good job explaining why.

[tn5421]

It's just a gut feeling that discussing the setup before the game is over is going to backfire on us.

Updating my list of reads:

Pim: slight scumread, refuses to share information with town.
Talah: Still suspicious, but not enough to justify leaving my RVS vote on him/her.
penguin_alien: Still mildly suspicious, based on activity.
SeeEmpty: slight townread, while activity is lower than I'd like he brings up good points.
mlearn2, Findlove, beastcharizard: nullread, would like to see more content from you

[SeeEmpty]

#24 was a response to the end of Talah's #23 where she said nothing had pinged her either direction thus far.

Ok. The quote in your post about beastcharizard vote on pim confuses me a bit. So it's a misquote then.

It's just a gut feeling that discussing the setup before the game is over is going to backfire on us.

Can't really see how the discussion would backfire, but discussing what setup would someone prefer if they're scum does generate unneeded and unrelated content that makes re-read more laborious, which is mostly what happened in page 1.

[tn5421]

#24 was a response to the end of Talah's #23 where she said nothing had pinged her either direction thus far.

Ok. The quote in your post about beastcharizard vote on pim confuses me a bit. So it's a misquote then.

It's just a gut feeling that discussing the setup before the game is over is going to backfire on us.

Can't really see how the discussion would backfire, but discussing what setup would someone prefer if they're scum does generate unneeded and unrelated content that makes re-read more laborious, which is mostly what happened in page 1.

It's better than some of the derp I've seen...

[talah]

Why does my explanation need to be watertight.

And by that I suppose you mean why would you even need to answer?

You claim no knowledge of undisclosed hydras.
I point out that Saki is probably in a hydra.
You state that according to me, Katen is a hydra of Saki and Koromo.

I never mentioned Koromo, so what did you mean by saying that

I

said that the members of the hydra were Saki and Koromo, when your defence is that

you'd

only just found out? It was you that just "found" the information, so why in the world would you say that it was me that pointed out the members? Surely

you

looked into it and discovered the other member in that case, and that's what you would have said.
It feels incredibly like a distancing attempt where you had knowledge of the members from interacting together in a QT during setup.

Your OMGUS makes you more suspicious but doesn't necessarily mean you're scum.

I find it completely null. Town sometimes hold back on expressing suspicion on someone who's expressing suspicion of them just because it's a

reeeallly

easy thing for scum to raise as a scumtell. But really it's only usefulness is in garnering reactions.

Why do you find OMGUS "suspicious", and why do you think scum are more likely to OMGUS than town?

It doesn't sit right with me to see someone not understanding what is going on when we only have 3 pages of content.

Describe to me, in detail, how I didn't understand what was going on. I can go into blow-by-blows for you if you like.

Katen lays down a post-2-of-the-game "serious vote", obviously looking for a reaction
I patently ignore it because it's ridiculous and engage in a discussion which seems more constructive to me in getting a feel for other players' motivations
Katen returns, apparently butthurt because he hasn't been able to do the "big reveal" on why the vote was "serious", and attacks the discussion
I ask for clarification on what his problem is
He tells me to go re-read the fucking thread

What did I miss?

--
breaking this up because walls

[Finglove]

It depends on context. On that context it just doesn't make much sense to me to a point I just treat is as a joke vote in response to talah's joke claim. This is not the same for post #39.

On the same note, notice that people posted before or after my post are also random voting with arbitrary reasons. What do you think about that?

It just struck me that you were acting differently to normal (i.e. town), and that worried me. Now you seem back to your usual affair.
UNVOTE:

1. The hubbub over Talah's townbloc post is hugely unnecessary. It was a little cheeky, but doesn't look duplicitous. Why point it out? Because you gotta point things out in RVS, even if they're obvious. Saki's harping on it looks a suspect, though. This is an incredibly weak reason to vote someone, and taking it like it's a serious scumtell is ridiculous.

I'm not harping on it as a serious scumtell, as I mentioned in 58 It was the start of my suspicion and talah's reactions to the serious vote and me finding a scumread on him on his first post weren't what i would expect town to do, that's where the scumread grew.

Talah makes a comment about undisclosed hydras. It wasn't anything about not knowing who makes up the Katen hydra, just disliking that hydras sometimes don't disclose.

This however was an oversight on my part, for me it felt that he didn't like the fact that there was an undisclosed hydra.

Also I'd expect you as the IC at least to contribute much more other than a fencesitty post like:

Not calling you out, just want your input.

For someone that is in the null realm, you aren't making them feel threathened at all, and it saddens me that the voice that's supposed to be conf town isn't even attempting some scumhunting and pressure of their own. If you really want to contribute then do it right, but it feels to me like you're scared of applying pressure to desp for... what reason?

-Saki

3. Generally, the Talah vs Katen (mostly Saki) argument looks a lot worse for Saki. In 27, Talah makes a comment about undisclosed hydras. It wasn't anything about not knowing who makes up the Katen hydra, just disliking that hydras sometimes don't disclose. Between this and point 1, Saki is just trying to find things to attack Talah on. These are not good reasons to scumread someone. The Katen heads should know this, and trying so hard to make something out of nothing looks duplicitous.

Then you know nothing about early game reads. What the actual fuck were you expecting from a read based on one post? It's not supposed to be some god tiered scumread, it's a starting point for more conversation to develop from. Get it now, or wanna continue?

Saki, why are you trying to undermine the town IC?

1. We weren't the only ones doing this, so why do you selectively call out us and ignore everyone else (e.g. desp)?
2. This is blatantly buddying the IC - sucking up to conftowns is always a giant red flag for me. This also explains 1 in that your read so ~conveniently~ happens to match his.

Overall, I'm calling BS and my own vote to move.

Vote: penguin_alien

-Koromo

I'm finding this pair of posts pretty scummy. The IC doesn't need to be hyper-aggressive because they have nothing to prove. In fact, I'm happiest with the IC taking a pretty measured view of situations as they emerge and leaving the rest of us to scrape it out, because they have the luxury to do that and careful analysis combined with aggression is the most likely thing to find scum. I think penguin has a reasonable question and I don't really see that as buddying up to the conftown. All in all it's a pretty weak set of reasons to change vote. I also don't like pushback in 76 and then subsequently voting him before he responds. It comes across as jumpy.

VOTE: Katengecchi

[Finglove]

@mlearn: Talah feels eh, to me. I will need to look at her posts to get a read.

Seriously void, what the hell is this? The katen-talah thing has contributed to most of the posts so far and you don't have any opinions? Did you just not bother reading the thread? Because if so, the thing to do is to actually read the thread and then post something substantial and helpful.

[talah]

Ok so I see no one else noticed it, the thing that pinged me about talah's first post was that he put down a townbloc of himself and the IC, which if he's town it should be obvious why he's there and it should be obvious to everyone why the IC is there, and everyone's townblocs will look the same (Yourself + the IC) so it felt like it was an unnecessary addition to his first post that he made for the sake of making himself look town rather than anything.

talah's post afterwards haven't gotten any better, I don't get why he cares about who noticed the scummyness in his first post rather than why we're scumreading him and never bothers to ask where the scumread came from.

And hark, the Big Reveal (TM) cometh.

So you say that me placing an RVS vote and identifying the two people I know to be town is a scumtell?
And then pat yourself on the back for being the one who "noticed the scummyness" and scumread me further for not giving a fuck why the second post of the game is serious?

There's literally nothing that can be even remotely considered alignment indicative in my first post. It's the first fucking post of the game! And you expect me to ask you "uh durr why you scumreading me for my post please Katen?"

This has got to be the weakest attempt at pushing a game forward that I've ever encountered from town if that's the case, so it's a good thing that you're very likely scum.

I explained why it was bad to discuss the reasons to pick X over Y as scum, not what they would pick, and I explained why it was bad too, it had nothing to do with "scum already picked so it doesn't matter", and more with "if scum picked X, you're giving them ideas", this was clearly stated in my post yet he decided to overlook it and ask me again about it, again it was a pointless question that I felt it was there for the sake of being there as even tn noticed it in my post at the very least.

Your explanation is that it would give scum ideas of what to do if they picked a similar setup to any of the half dozen setups we were bandying about?
How is that advantageous to scum in a different game, with different players, with unrevealed PRs, on Day 1, in RVS?

Then he pegs tn for "knowing" the hydra heads when we've both have been signing our posts and both of us have posted, which seems like he's looking for a reason to pin someone down.

Well I'm glad you said "pegs", because I have currently no reason to think that I'm not 100% accurate.
You find it natural that he attributed the discovery of your heads, to me?

On a side note, our hydra may have been undisclosed pre-game, but it's pretty clear who's posting what, why would he be mad about undisclosed hydras after the heads have posted considering it's still early in the game? Unless he had a reason to wanting to have known who was in the hydra pre-game.

Generally when a person says "Dem", it means they're being

lighthearted

, not

mad

. It makes no difference to me whether you're in a hydra or not, I was just surprised to see you in the game and the OP didn't list hydra members.

[talah]

...Why so cryptic Pim? What part of its purpose? Are waiting for Desperado's response?

Preview Edit: Obviously because I have absolutely no scum hunting skills so I wait around reading he game as it progresses and vote for people who seem scummy, such as Pim here. UNVOTE: VOTE: Pim

I really don't understand how Pim is scummy for what he just posted in 60. You came in and claimed lurker which I didn't like either.
And now it appears you're trying to write off any obligation to need to explain your reads beyond "I'm terrible at scumhunting".

If I wanted to play a game with lurkers who didn't scumhunt, I'd create my own thread and have the playerlist consisting of one player. If you're town some effort would be appreciated.

Town win by sharing ideas and trying to trip the scum up with active posting, not mulling secretly in the dark.

Saki might disagree with you here. Both aggressive scum, and active scum, are things. Although I agree with the sentiment that lurking is anti-town for the most part.

2. TN is definitely looking like town. The inexperience is adorable, but the attempts look genuine.

I don't know why there is an assumption of inexperience (aside from join date which is MS-specific), nor why inexperience means he wouldn't play reasonably competently as scum. I'll cite Road to Rome as evidence that some newbs absolutely paste experienced players.

--
yeah so I'm not going to spam thoughts anymore tonight but assume I'm caught up for the sake of the game.
I think I saw a couple of questions reading along, if they're important I'll get back to them (or point them out please) - tia.

[Katengecchi]

@talah:

Please answer my questions 81

@penguin_alien:

same 79

I'm finding this pair of posts pretty scummy. The IC doesn't need to be hyper-aggressive because they have nothing to prove. In fact, I'm happiest with the IC taking a pretty measured view of situations as they emerge and leaving the rest of us to scrape it out, because they have the luxury to do that and careful analysis combined with aggression is the most likely thing to find scum.

I disagree - they have no chance of being lynched, so they should apply as much pressure and make as many people break as possible because they have absolutely nothing to fear by doing it. (FYI that post was Saki not me but I agree with it - it's just basic theory really)

I think penguin has a reasonable question and I don't really see that as buddying up to the conftown.

How the hell is that a "reasonable question"? It's nothing but a loaded question that's designed to make me look bad no matter what answer I give.

Swooping in to someone's defense when someone is pushing on them is a very common form of buddying. It's something I see all the time among good scum players and it's hard as hell to actually detect it when you're the one being buddied. So yeah, given all the evidence, there's a very good chance it is buddying. Why do you think it's not?

All in all it's a pretty weak set of reasons to change vote. I also don't like pushback in 76 and then subsequently voting him before he responds. It comes across as jumpy.

76 was Saki, the vote was me. I decided based on penguin's post she was a better place for our vote.

And hark, the Big Reveal (TM) cometh.

So you say that me placing an RVS vote and identifying the two people I know to be town is a scumtell?

And then pat yourself on the back for being the one who "noticed the scummyness"

and scumread me further for not giving a fuck why the second post of the game is serious?

Link where Saki did this. And please explain WHY said scumread on you is coming from scum motivation, as opposed to town motivation.

There's literally nothing that can be even remotely considered alignment indicative in my first post. It's the first fucking post of the game! And you expect me to ask you "uh durr why you scumreading me for my post please Katen?"

This has got to be the weakest attempt at pushing a game forward that I've ever encountered from town if that's the case, so it's a good thing that you're very likely scum.

Oh my god I'm so sorry, gomene talah-sama for scumreading you based on one post
Fuck that. As I said, what the fuck do you expect from early game reads? It's a starting point for conversation. So, again, why exactly does this come from scum motivation as opposed to town motivation?

-Koromo

[Finglove]

I disagree - they have no chance of being lynched, so they should apply as much pressure and make as many people break as possible because they have absolutely nothing to fear by doing it. (FYI that post was Saki not me but I agree with it - it's just basic theory really)

I think penguin has a reasonable question and I don't really see that as buddying up to the conftown.

How the hell is that a "reasonable question"? It's nothing but a loaded question that's designed to make me look bad no matter what answer I give.

Swooping in to someone's defense when someone is pushing on them is a very common form of buddying. It's something I see all the time among good scum players and it's hard as hell to actually detect it when you're the one being buddied. So yeah, given all the evidence, there's a very good chance it is buddying. Why do you think it's not?

All in all it's a pretty weak set of reasons to change vote. I also don't like pushback in 76 and then subsequently voting him before he responds. It comes across as jumpy.

76 was Saki, the vote was me. I decided based on penguin's post she was a better place for our vote.

(With apologies for previous pronoun confusion)

Nah, I'm not seeing the merit of another aggressive person when you could have a calm and collected one instead. But we can agree to disagree on that. It's a reasonable question because I didn't understand what the hell you were doing telling the IC that they were playing it wrong, and I figure penguin didn't either. I'm pretty suspicious of buddying too, and I've voted for people on buddying alone, but I would dispute that it's hard to detect - given we spend most of our time laying into each other, sticks out like a sore thumb when someone is unnecessarily friendly.

And yes, I'm aware you're a hydra and that the posts came from different heads, but if you want to use that as a defence then you face different questions, as in: 1) Does Saki think it's worth a vote too, and if so, why no vote after initial pushback? Or were you conferring inbetween the two posts, in which case, why post at all until you've conferred? Basically, it looks odd whether I consider you as one slot OR two people.

[Voidwalker1234]

@Finglove: The effects of laziness towards deep reading the first time through, I did mostly the same thing in Newbie 1489, bandwagon until I felt like rereading the thread in which I got my bit more conclusive reads, and the avoidance of walls.

Preview Edit:

@talah: *59. Anyways, trying to hate on my play style? Did you know that not everyone is a superactive person actively hunting every post, and there are actually sheep? *Surprised Gasp of Sarcasm*