433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[Dodgy]

Thats very true most of the time Southpaw but when everyone starts to presume such a thing is when the dinamics of the game can change and scum can do the most obvious things and people just say, nah, thats far too obvious.
Thats the fun of the game, you never know who is telling the truth or not, not for sure anyway.

[Dodgy]

Now how about we hear from some of those peeps that just arn't posting.

[The Fonz]

Quit it with your Scumtells and just play the game mate!
Youre forgetting one other reason why someone claims Town, because they are Town! LOL

Yaaawn. It makes no sense for anyone to claim scum. Therefore, claiming town is just pointless time-wasting. We can't take your word for it. You're apparently a longtime vet, yet you're playing incredibly newbishly. That said, I don't think attacking you further is going to yield much more info right now. You'd have to do summat VERY pro-town to change my opinion.

one of those "so obvious you have to discount it" mafia plays.

I'm voting you because you're the most scummy

on page 3 of day 1

. There are a lot of players who I've yet to get a read on and I'm not forgetting them!

Well said. For starters, I want to know whether thorgot thinks the bandwagon was a good idea or not. Simple enough question, and I think an answer is due. 'It was random' isn't an excuse. Everytime something significant happens with a bandwagon, you have to decide anew if it's still worth supporting.

[thorgot]

I think the bandwagon was an excellent idea, in order to create some discussion about players. Which it did, including about myself.

Sorry I haven't been more active. I had lots of work this week, but I should be able to post more this week.

[superstring91]

Quit it with your Scumtells and just play the game mate!

i have to agree. i dont think pointing out scumtells is a great idea right now keep those ideas to yourself, and maybe analyze them later.

There is a VERY good chance that we have 3 Scum in this game and my guess is that you've all be outed in day 1.
I think the 3 scum are The Fonz, Dasquian and superstring91.
All 3 of you know that I'm not scum and thats why you are all going in for the kill and to get people onside.
If however you do manage this, please town, remember the mob!
As for your scumtells The Fonz, I hope for your sake you are scum because if by small chance that youre not, youre very bad at reading this game.

the only reason you think the 3 of us are scum is because we agree with each other and not you.
i dont like that one bit

I can empathise with the level of paranoia you're now exhibiting, and I would say that's actually a town-tell if anything, or a conscientious act.

If you're town, calm down, take a step back. The mafia are

not

all going in for the kill, nor would it make much sense for us to do so if you were right about us, unless we were going for one of those "so obvious you have to discount it" mafia plays.

QFT

You're apparently a longtime vet, yet you're playing incredibly newbishly.

i half agree with this. i will wait to see more of your posts through the game to actually judge you on it though.
i also dont like you trying to attack fonz for lack of experience. even though you said that you werent trying to discredit him, it came off like you were.

[Sweenytodd]

And secondly, What would you know about Classic scumtells?
Correct me if I'm wrong but you have only been playing for a couple of weeks and being privy to all members lists and their IP addresses, I can see that you havn't been a player before that date under a different name, so I ask again, are you really experienced enough to make such a statement?

On this point, I can only speak for my own experience which is very limited. I am new to this site and to this game in general, so if you'd like to direct comments on noobishness feel free to direct them to me. From the games that I have read on this site, the "classic scumtells" seem far from reliable. A person is scummy who acts too much like town or too little, a person who posts too much or not enough is considered scummy. I'm sure that there are real scumtells certain players exude but those are probably individual matters of meta-gaming. The most effective way of routing the scum seems to be creating discussion (which granted, this bandwagon has done) and examine the logic and the arguments put forward by individuals. That being said, the largest concern I have at the moment is with the discussion being primarily among 4-6 players with the majority of the members flying under the radar. I would recommend that instead of a post such as this,

I think the bandwagon was an excellent idea, in order to create some discussion about players. Which it did, including about myself.

Sorry I haven't been more active. I had lots of work this week, but I should be able to post more this week.

do not help us find scum. I realize that everyone had times when they cannot participate as much, this I will not hold against you. The issue that I have is posting 2 sentences agreeing with an idea rather than providing content does nothing but keeping your name outside of the "lurker" discussion. Everyone needs to participate, and I realize it has been a couple days since my last contribution which is why I am attempting to do my part to contribute now that I have some time. Please, to facilitate discussion, feel free to pose any questions to me which you feel need answering. Please, if you haven't posted in a couple days take the time to provide us some content to continue evaluating that we can weed out the scum presence in this town.

[superstring91]

I think the bandwagon was an excellent idea, in order to create some discussion about players. Which it did, including about myself.

Sorry I haven't been more active. I had lots of work this week, but I should be able to post more this week.

do not help us find scum. I realize that everyone had times when they cannot participate as much, this I will not hold against you. The issue that I have is posting 2 sentences agreeing with an idea rather than providing content does nothing but keeping your name outside of the "lurker" discussion. Everyone needs to participate, and I realize it has been a couple days since my last contribution which is why I am attempting to do my part to contribute now that I have some time. Please, to facilitate discussion, feel free to pose any questions to me which you feel need answering. Please, if you haven't posted in a couple days take the time to provide us some content to continue evaluating that we can weed out the scum presence in this town.

at least he is not saying "i have nothing to add" that was a major problem with N316. there was one player who refused to agree with anyone, and just said that his ideas had been posted already. we cant read peoples minds [as much as we may try] while i agree that more content is better, their ideas may have been legitimatly posted already.

i, for one would rather have him say that than "my ideas were posted" and "not posting is my play style. eat it."

and, to end this post, i would like to hear from everyone else as well.
POST!

[kilmenator]

Thats very true most of the time Southpaw but when everyone starts to presume such a thing is when the dinamics of the game can change and scum can do the most obvious things and people just say, nah, thats far too obvious.
Thats the fun of the game, you never know who is telling the truth or not, not for sure anyway.

Isnt that what WIFOM bascially is? Doing things to throw others off and basically saying, if I were scum, I NEVER would have done that or been that obvious.

I think this is why people need to lynch scummy people, because then people will aviod scummy behaviors as much as possible. Most of you know if you have played with me before, that I do not buy the too scummy to be scum argument.

And to the scum tells discussion, most experienced players will try to aviod those scum tells, I think people need to be veiwed according to how they play, most people will exhibit certain traits when they are a certain role. I am not saying that there are not scum tells, I am just saying most people try to aviod them at all costs.

[superstring91]

Thats very true most of the time Southpaw but when everyone starts to presume such a thing is when the dinamics of the game can change and scum can do the most obvious things and people just say, nah, thats far too obvious.
Thats the fun of the game, you never know who is telling the truth or not, not for sure anyway.
:wink:

Isnt that what WIFOM bascially is? Doing things to throw others off and basically saying, if I were scum, I NEVER would have done that or been that obvious.

I think this is why people need to lynch scummy people, because then people will aviod scummy behaviors as much as possible. Most of you know if you have played with me before, that I do not buy the too scummy to be scum argument.

And to the scum tells discussion, most experienced players will try to aviod those scum tells, I think people need to be veiwed according to how they play, most people will exhibit certain traits when they are a certain role. I am not saying that there are not scum tells, I am just saying most people try to aviod them at all costs.

i agree 100% with this.

and most of the time, i dont buy too sscummy to be scum, but it would really depend on that players actions so far, and how they acted after the scummy actions

[pete d]

The current situation reminds me a lot of what happened in McDonalds mafia (a recent mini theme i was in). In that game, StallingChamp proxied his vote to Glork for the weekend or something (he was going to be away) to create discussion, and a couple of people objected, and there was a big argument over the usefulness / scumminess / whatever of the proxy. As it happened, i made some bad posts, a wagon formed on me (i was town), but it switched onto a blundering scum.

What I'm trying to say is, I can see where both sides of the argument are coming from; just because there are differing opinions, doesn't mean that those who disagree with you are scum.

Myself, I'm a bit more suspicious of the people who have stayed out of discussion, the quasi lurkers (the most notable being dom:inc, Eletrair, gorckat).

btw, I disagree with the use of the "classic scumtells" argument, its like trying to add weight to your arguments without adding much substance. I'd rather Fonzy just say "blah blah blah blah; this is scummy behaviour imo" or something like that. But I am probably nitpicking.

[The Fonz]

T

btw, I disagree with the use of the "classic scumtells" argument, its like trying to add weight to your arguments without adding much substance. I'd rather Fonzy just say "blah blah blah blah; this is scummy behaviour imo" or something like that. But I am probably nitpicking.

Eh? What is the difference between saying 'this is really scummy' and 'this is a classic scumtell?' In both cases, you're suggesting that the action you're attacking is highly suspicious, and suggests scum. The difference is purely semantic.

[Southpaw]

Thats very true most of the time Southpaw but when everyone starts to presume such a thing is when the dinamics of the game can change and scum can do the most obvious things and people just say, nah, thats far too obvious.
Thats the fun of the game, you never know who is telling the truth or not, not for sure anyway.

Isnt that what WIFOM bascially is? Doing things to throw others off and basically saying, if I were scum, I NEVER would have done that or been that obvious.

I think this is why people need to lynch scummy people, because then people will aviod scummy behaviors as much as possible. Most of you know if you have played with me before, that I do not buy the too scummy to be scum argument.

And to the scum tells discussion, most experienced players will try to aviod those scum tells, I think people need to be veiwed according to how they play, most people will exhibit certain traits when they are a certain role. I am not saying that there are not scum tells, I am just saying most people try to aviod them at all costs.

I think that's true when dealing with how an individual acts but I think it would be a bad idea to try doing it as a group. Even if it makes them less suspicious right now, if one of them ends up getting voted off later on for a different reason then having these connections between them would become very dangerous. Especially over something as pointless as these early votes.

[The Fonz]

. I would recommend that instead of a post such as this,

I think the bandwagon was an excellent idea, in order to create some discussion about players. Which it did, including about myself.

Sorry I haven't been more active. I had lots of work this week, but I should be able to post more this week.

do not help us find scum. I realize that everyone had times when they cannot participate as much, this I will not hold against you. The issue that I have is posting 2 sentences agreeing with an idea rather than providing content does nothing but keeping your name outside of the "lurker" discussion. Everyone needs to participate, and I realize it has been a couple days since my last contribution which is why I am attempting to do my part to contribute now that I have some time. Please, to facilitate discussion, feel free to pose any questions to me which you feel need answering. Please, if you haven't posted in a couple days take the time to provide us some content to continue evaluating that we can weed out the scum presence in this town.

Meh, he was asked a direct question and he answered it. (Still begs the Q of why he didn't just say that when initially asked, but I'll leave that one for now). I'd agree in principle with the notion of trying to find out who's lurking and who's inactive though.

[dom:inc]

T

btw, I disagree with the use of the "classic scumtells" argument, its like trying to add weight to your arguments without adding much substance. I'd rather Fonzy just say "blah blah blah blah; this is scummy behaviour imo" or something like that. But I am probably nitpicking.

Eh? What is the difference between saying 'this is really scummy' and 'this is a classic scumtell?' In both cases, you're suggesting that the action you're attacking is highly suspicious, and suggests scum. The difference is purely semantic.

I'm more inclined to agree with pete d here. Saying "this is a classic scumtell" to me seems a lot less convincing than actually explaining what it is that you dislike about the post/points raisedl. I'm sure other people like me, who aren't so condident in their game will agree too.

In regards to the lurker situation, now this is the first non-newbie game i've been in so i don't have much to go on, but i don't think the lurkers are any more or less likely to be scum. If someone pops up and rattles off a copy paste of a few other peoples opinions and sticks a vote with it that has a considerable effect then yes they're gonna look scummy. But similarly, someone could come back with some long informative posts which raise more discussion and help us further the game. It can go either way but i'm not too sure what my point is made sense when i started writing it but now i'm lost.

I've not got an excuse, i've been reading the thread quite a few times each day, just not really felt i have anything to add. The last game i was there was a similar standoff between two groups and i picked a group who's arguements sounded most convincing, did some re-reading of my own and was convinced on their ideals. I made the wrong choice. So i'm trying to take this game a little slower and read into it all just a bit more.

As for Sweenytodd's post about contributing more than two lines i'm undecided. Sure people may be busy but we can't really check that and so in this way i agree that maybe a little more content could be added, but at the same time if they really are busy then they really don't have the time to add more. And Sweenytodd's post itself is mostly just the same line about posting more content regurgitated with some filler words and sentences that add length to what you're writing, the kind of thing you use at school to make it look like you did a lot of work. (or was that just me )

[The Fonz]

T

btw, I disagree with the use of the "classic scumtells" argument, its like trying to add weight to your arguments without adding much substance. I'd rather Fonzy just say "blah blah blah blah; this is scummy behaviour imo" or something like that. But I am probably nitpicking.

Eh? What is the difference between saying 'this is really scummy' and 'this is a classic scumtell?' In both cases, you're suggesting that the action you're attacking is highly suspicious, and suggests scum. The difference is purely semantic.

I'm more inclined to agree with pete d here. Saying "this is a classic scumtell" to me seems a lot less convincing than actually explaining what it is that you dislike about the post/points raisedl. I'm sure other people like me, who aren't so condident in their game will agree too.

Hmmm... seems to me your problem is different to pete's, in that you appear to be suggesting that I didn't explain why I think it's scummy. The reason is I thought it obvious, though I do think I elaborated later: placing a safe vote (which I considered mine to be) is not a dangerous or scummy action, therefore anyone attacking it as such is likely to be opportunistic scum.

In regards to the lurker situation, now this is the first non-newbie game i've been in so i don't have much to go on, but i don't think the lurkers are any more or less likely to be scum.

Chances are, at least a couple of them are simply inactive. BUT: lack of discussion hurts the town. Ensuring that everyone is participating, and replacing those who have gone inactive, deprives the scum of the ability to stay under the radar by saying nothing at all.

I've not got an excuse, i've been reading the thread quite a few times each day, just not really felt i have anything to add. The last game i was there was a similar standoff between two groups and i picked a group who's arguements sounded most convincing, did some re-reading of my own and was convinced on their ideals. I made the wrong choice. So i'm trying to take this game a little slower and read into it all just a bit more.

This is mildly scummy. Appearing, declining to express opinions, and doing so in a longwinded way, gives the impression of contributing without actually helping the town at all.

I appreciate you might have been burned by joining the 'wrong side' but remember: scum operate in lots of ways. There may well be scum on both sides of this argument. (The aim of the game as town is 'lynch scum' not 'lynch people who disagree with you.') You don't necessarily need to even 'take a side,' you can pick out one or two individual posts where you think the logic is somehow flawed, or the tone strikes you as odd, and question the relevant poster on that particular issue.

[pete d]

@ Dasquian, I'm guessing your voting me because you think I'm scum? Well just for the record, I'm not.

Claiming 'not-scum' is another common scumtell.

In this case, i think what Dodgy said was pretty incidental, and your response of "its a scumtell" seemed a bit hollow, like it was in place of a proper argument. Your other scumtell reference I'm not as concerned about (where you said that Dodgy's defensiveness over the wagon was a scumtell) because you already made arguments about it / explanations.

[The Fonz]

@ Dasquian, I'm guessing your voting me because you think I'm scum? Well just for the record, I'm not.

Claiming 'not-scum' is another common scumtell.

In this case, i think what Dodgy said was pretty incidental, and your response of "its a scumtell" seemed a bit hollow, like it was in place of a proper argument. Your other scumtell reference I'm not as concerned about (where you said that Dodgy's defensiveness over the wagon was a scumtell) because you already made arguments about it / explanations.

I never actually said Dodgy's defensiveness over the wagon was in itself scummy. Though I did find him suggesting that I was exhibiting 'outstanding defensiveness' hypocritical.

I don't mean your FOS on me there. That makes perfect sense either way, since you have to defend yourself. (Though my 'outstanding defensiveness?' Pot, kettle...)

As for, 'im place of a proper argument,' here's the argument:

Yaaawn. It makes no sense for anyone to claim scum. Therefore, claiming town is just pointless time-wasting. We can't take your word for it.

[Dasquian]

I think Fonz is drawing a small amount of fire here because he's being more prolific than anyone in this game, and responding to every post means he's having about three separate arguments. For the record, I think his declarations of scum-tells are based in solid theory that is applicable to the cases in hand - but just citing Conventional Wisdom without joining enough of the dots diverts the discussion to being about the theory instead of the point being made.

In this case, I pretty much agree with both Fonz and pete d. Explicitly stating you're not scum is so trivial you have to wonder why they bothered, however it probably

was

just incidental as part of Dodgy's rebuff to seeing himself as being branded as mafia.

I do think that Fonz is now putting too much reliance in what he's seen. Particularly:

You'd have to do summat VERY pro-town to change my opinion.

re: Dodgy implied a level of certainty on the Dodgy-wagon I'm not sharing, despite sharing the original reasons for the vote. And so, I have compounded the issue in my very first sentence by continuing the focus on The Fonz


So, I think I'm going to start calling out people who are slipping my radar a bit - it's far too early to be throwing accusations of lurking about, but I think the current discussions are about to go off the boil a bit and it'd be good to hear from the quieter posters.

So, a big shout-out to my homeboys Eletriar, kilmenator, gorckat and thorgot. I know thorgot and kilmenator posted yesterday, but they didn't say much of consequence.

[The Fonz]

Well, I don't think I'm overreacting, Dodgy's play is about as scummy as it is possible to be within the first four pages, in my humble opinion.

I would like to hear from Sweenytodd, who also joined Dodgy in suggesting that the actions of me/Dasq were 'reckless' and that he'd rather we started with FOSing.

It's obvious that Dodgy won't explain why this makes any sense (I've asked him more than once) so how's about you step up to the plate and try to present a reasonable argument for why a) L-4 and L-3 are dangerous (and not just dangerous, but equally so) and b) how FOSing would have been a better way to start debate?

[Eletriar]

The shout out is noted. I was out of town for the weekend, and with finals coming up, a new project at work being database-tested, and all taht... I've been lagging on my attention. I really don't have anything to add that helps the discussion; all of what I may have said has been said - and while I apologize for the inactivity, I promise I'll be on enough to keep a running narrative in my mind as to what's what here. You have my official apology there.

All I'll say is that I'm actually not sure Dodgy is scummy; it seemed more well-and-truly panicky to me.

[Dodgy]

Hi people, sorry for not posting but I've just gotten out of Hospital.
To The Fonz, I think I have answered your questions fully.
I claimed myself town and I agree with whoever said, its an insignificant thing to do (or words to that effect) but I also laid a few hints in with my posts. Its a shame that I need to point this out again, as its really not good for the town to do so but it all helps in the learning for newish players.
Anyway, I've read the thread and I'm still a little concerned at the players that hav'nt posted much.
Hopefully will be able to post Tomorrow.

[Dodgy]

P.S To The Fonz, go back and read my posts, if you're not scum and you know how to read into this game like you claim to, with all your "scumtell expretise" LOL, then get off my ***king back!
If youre Town, you need a good kick up the arse for pushing me into what amounts to a role claim.
If you really were as ofait with this game as you like to portrait, as town, you would have picked up on all the "so" obvious hints I have given and packed up your crap.
I can only conclude that you are either bullshitting about your Knowledge/experience of this game or you are Mafia
Therefor...

Vote: The Fonz

[The Fonz]

That's a flat out lie. You can't possibly believe you've answered my questions. I have yet to hear a decent argument for why lynch -4 is scummy, or how FOSing based on nothing would ever manage to generate a debate. (Largely because no such argument exists, but it's not even like you've tried). You've OMGUSed me, said my arguments were 'crap' without providing any evidence, you tried an ad hominem attack on me as a mafia player (then lied about it) accused me of precisely the kind of behaviour you were exhibiting yourself, than came up with a half-baked theory about everyone who disagreed with you being scum.

I really, really, hope you're scum, because not one thing you have done so far has helped the town.

[The Fonz]

P.S To The Fonz, go back and read my posts, if you're not scum and you know how to read into this game like you claim to, with all your "scumtell expretise" LOL, then get off my ***king back!
If youre Town, you need a good kick up the arse for pushing me into what amounts to a role claim.
If you really were as ofait with this game as you like to portrait, as town, you would have picked up on all the "so" obvious hints I have given and packed up your crap.
I can only conclude that you are either bullshitting about your Knowledge/experience of this game or you are Mafia
Therefor...

Vote: The Fonz

I never claimed expertise. I pointed out what, from games I've played and read, are common scum traits. I asked you to provide a reasonable, pro-town explanations for your actions, and you deflected, and generally done just about everything possible to avoid actually answering a question.

I haven't come close to pushing you to a role claim, you've ONLY got two votes on you FFS!

If you are town, then this is the single worst town performance I've ever seen.

[Dodgy]

I've so

FUCKING

had enough of inexperienced players that talk fucking shit and try to pretend to everyone, that they know how to play this game with insight, ie

The Fonz

.
I only joined this game because my fellow creators/friends, Jeep, mathcam and MEMe convinced me to.
I thougfht this was a mini with no theme, not a newbie with a certain pereson that talks bollocks!
I quit and I can because I set this fucking site up, co-wrote the "Wikki" that people keep refering to and thought that I would be in a game with players that had the intelligence to read between the lines.
Here goes peeps....
I am/was

The Doctor

Now listen up, yes I've given up and its its really not good for the town but I thought, being in a mini game,which by the way, was my origional concept, that the far majority of players would have experience.
Town listen...... either

The Fonz

is full of shit or he is Mafia! My guess, he's both.
Have fun and next time you see me in a game, make sure you know how to fucking play the thing!
I'm not refereing to the majority of players in this game but just to those that claim to have knowledge yet refer to "my Wikki" which I sat down and wrote all those years back, for back up.
The Wikki was never set up to be a bench mark for quotation, just a point of reference for people to use as they joined the game as a new player.
Last post.