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Post Post #425 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:31 pm

Post by Mert »

cuban smoker wrote:My case against Mert: I was trying to explain why I thought a name-claim would be a good idea, and suggested we try and use a random list to make people go in an arbitrary order. Mert didn't like it or understand it and voted me for it. I think ubertimmy jumped on shortly after.

I find above behaviour scummy.
That is not why I voted for you. It's hard to recall my exact words as the post has gone, but your liking of a nameclaim was only one part of it. If we were to nameclaim, I have no problem with the pseudo-random order, but I wasn't sure exactly how you were proposing we did it and what benefit nameclaiming would bring.

Moreover, there was something about the tone of your post that gave off a vibe. Sorry I can't be more specific - I wish I had the old post to refer to.

At the time, you stated your suspicion of me was not to do with me not understanding or being adverse to a massnameclaim, it was something to do with being "too picky" about the specifics and not having a "feel" for it... something like that anyway.
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Post Post #426 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:41 pm

Post by ubertimmy »

hi, im back, will reread last few
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Post Post #427 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:42 pm

Post by Mert »

As for my reason for suspecting Yamahako, I've been racking my brain trying to remember where we were at before the move. For some reason I've found it more difficult to do so in this game than I have in most others, but I think I have remembered enough to give you a brief praicee if nothing else.

Yamahako was talking about moving his vote to AndrewS to avoid a no-lynch. He mentioned in his post (one of his posts?) about this that he knew that it needed four votes and so he put on the fourth.

I pointed out that the mod had simply said that the largest number would lynch. At the point this was clarified by the mod, Cubsfan and Andrew were tied for votes and so his assertion that his vote was to make sure we avoided a no-lynch seemed a little strange at that point.

So I went back and decided to see why he was suspicious of Cubsfan - all I found on the issue was the following:
Yamahako [58] wrote:Do you prefer lake or fly - seeing as how fishing seems to interest you...
Yamahako [115] wrote:Check his post history :-/
Yamahako [218] wrote:
unvote (if I'm voting), Vote Cubsfan4ever
How sure are you that Jack is acting off or Random
Yamahako [235] wrote:I'm not pro-cubansmoker, but we might be on the same wave length. I hadn't noticed the correlation. But I do like his dislike for Cubsfan, which is a plus in my book.
Yamahako [237] wrote:I think he's scummy in this game, I've never played a game with him before - so I don't have any meta reasons for my vote - just what I've already stated.
Unless I've missed something, I couldn't quite find a particularly strong case against Cubsfan - there are a few bits and pieces but nothing where I could go "aha,
that's
his suspicion of Cubsfan, right there".

My post that was lost on this subject was one part suspicion over the confusion of the whole "I had to vote Andrew to avoid no-lynch because he needed four votes" thing and one part question as to what his reasons are for being so sure Cubsfan is the play - he's been on him for a long time now but I can't find anything in his post history that explains why.

I didn't vote for him because a) I didn't want him at L-1 yet and b) I wanted him to explain his suspicions on Cubsfan before I decide whether or not to cast my vote.
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Post Post #428 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:03 pm

Post by Yamahako »

Mert wrote: I pointed out that the mod had simply said that the largest number would lynch. At the point this was clarified by the mod, Cubsfan and Andrew were tied for votes and so his assertion that his vote was to make sure we avoided a no-lynch seemed a little strange at that point.
If they were tied, then I suppose someone would have needed to move a vote one way or the other correct? Though I will admit that I had the impression that is someone was to be lynched they had to have a majority of the votes - as in if there were 7 people voting, 4 had to be voting for the person to be lynched.
Mert wrote:So I went back and decided to see why he was suspicious of Cubsfan - all I found on the issue was the following:
See quotes in post above
Out of context, I could see how they seem minor, and indeed my suspicion
was
minor yesterday. I'll explain my entire thought process:
Jack was "random voting" and it was stirring up discussion, not the same kind of discussion that certain people garner when they act odd - real discussion. He wasn't out and out scummy - but his odd behavior was a target. It seemed to me that Cubsfan latched onto that target to strongly, and too easily. That seemed like a scum move to me - that he was working (over 50% of his posts yesterday were to that end) toward the "most obvious" target - even though Jack wasn't really that scummy, and even though Jack was contributing where some others weren't. My read on cubs fan started when he was trying to fish for Jack's role, and continued as he poorly defended his posts and continued his attack for Jack.
When Jack turned up pro-town, it seemed to me that - more so than anyone else - Cubsfan had been pitching for the lynch of a (now) known townie. There were a couple of people non-commitally looking for HD to respond, and there was minor suspicion of Andrew (I noted it before I voted - his disappearance when under suspicion), but Cubsfan was one of the stronger proponents on the Jack wagon, and given his fishing and last nights outcome - I figured he might a good place to start for the day.

He then tried to assosiate my reason attack on him to be the same as my actions yesterday which were completely different - I felt that was a scum tactic to try and misrepresent the situation - another reason I'm suspicious of him.
Mert wrote:Unless I've missed something, I couldn't quite find a particularly strong case against Cubsfan - there are a few bits and pieces but nothing where I could go "aha,
that's
his suspicion of Cubsfan, right there".
A lot was lost with the crash, but you're right I didn't come out and spell it day one, as it was much weaker without knowing the alignment of Jack :-(
Mert wrote:My post that was lost on this subject was one part suspicion over the confusion of the whole "I had to vote Andrew to avoid no-lynch because he needed four votes" thing and one part question as to what his reasons are for being so sure Cubsfan is the play - he's been on him for a long time now but I can't find anything in his post history that explains why.
I hope its explained now - and I hope it sunderstood why I felt I needed to vote Andrew for the lynch - though I realize that may have been a misconception. But I'll say something that I mentioned before we lost all those posts - I did have some (small) suspicion of AndrewS - I noted it in posts before I switched my vote.
I'm suspicious - in every sense of the word.
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Post Post #429 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:05 pm

Post by spectrumvoid »

thrawn1020 wrote:I
have voted Mert several times
, but I can never seem to justify keeping the vote there very long.
"have voted" --> in the past.
"can never seem to justify" --> no reason.

I don't think Mert is suspicious because of the case laid out by cuban. I know that there are plenty of people in this forum who get jumpy every time claiming is suggested, and Mert could simply be one of them. As a matter of fact, if I didn't want to claim first, I'd also have jumped at it. Simply because name-claiming, if the order is not done properly, and not well-discussed, often helps scum to out power roles.

I really don't like how Yama is trying to explain his behaviour regarding AndrewS though. Either you thought he's scummy, or you don't think he's scummy. You can't have some "small" suspicion against him, and fail to lay it out further.
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Post Post #430 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:33 pm

Post by Skruffs »

I don't understand, though.


You are saying that Cubs knew that Jack was a switcher, and accurately knew who Jack was going to target, and killed That person so that Jack would actually die, all so that hte person he was trying to get lynched day one wouldn't be aroud to easily get lynched day two?

What is the sense in that?
Honestly. The logic is all flawed. Let's take a Regular example, where scum wants to get Townie A lynched. Does it make sense to push for someone as scum, and then kill them off that night? No. If you think that way, you have to think the next step: Kill off who A wants lynched, so that A looks guilty the next day.

But assuming Jack wasn't role blocked, none of that is possible in this context, anyways.
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Post Post #431 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:59 pm

Post by IH »

Votecount coming tomorrow.
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Post Post #432 (ISO) » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:33 am

Post by thrawn1020 »

Not quite, spectrumvoid. Though I thank you for pointing out some of my poor english.

For emphasis:

You are right. I
have voted
Mert in the past in this game. However, I
couldn't
justify
keeping
my vote there for long, not that I had no reason for being there in the first place.

My personal aversion to name claiming in this case has to do with the fact that we are playing a mini normal, which tends to obfuscate roles. I don't think we should let our suspicions be swayed by some name claim that could just be misleading us.

If I'm understanding Skruffs right, I agree with him that I think it's unlikely that someone had information that would have helped along the deaths we had last night. More likely, they were a product of multiple killers. If we don't have two kills tomorrow, we can turn on the wooz detectors, and assume that our vig killed night one. That makes some amount of sense, and barring someone outing themselves with a crazy role, is likely what happened.
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Post Post #433 (ISO) » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:05 am

Post by Mert »

spectrumvoid wrote:I don't think Mert is suspicious because of the case laid out by cuban. I know that there are plenty of people in this forum who get jumpy every time claiming is suggested, and Mert could simply be one of them. As a matter of fact, if I didn't want to claim first, I'd also have jumped at it. Simply because name-claiming, if the order is not done properly, and not well-discussed, often helps scum to out power roles.
I guess I do get "jumpy" because I don't see the point in it in this game. There have been times when I have full advocated a massclaim, but I think this is not one of those times where it'd be appropriate or useful. Partly because it could mean nothing at all and be a waste of time, partly because I doubt the scum have reason to lie (unless they
don't
have role names, in which case I don't see how this is classified as a "normal" game) and partly because it could be used by scum as a way of attacking somebody unjustly due to some arbitrary reason such as "your anime isn't broadcast on TV Tokyo and all ours are - die scum".

Moreover, those people that rushed into claiming so quickly (I forget who specifically, I think some or all of it was lost) ruined any possibility of a structured, town-agreed order as they'd already just jumped in prior to town consensus.

So you're right, basically - my points above expand on your "Mert might just be jumpy" statement.
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Post Post #434 (ISO) » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:24 am

Post by spectrumvoid »

English isn't my first language, so I try very hard to figure out everyone is saying, that's all, or I tend to miss little nuances.

I'm fine with thrawn's clarification.
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Post Post #435 (ISO) » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:49 am

Post by Mert »

Hi All,

Just to let you know, I'm going to be away from a computer after today until Monday evening (British time) so won't be able to post for the next few days. I will catch up upon my return and post opinions and answer questions directed at me then. If I need to be replaced as a result, then I'll completely understand, but if you can keep me in for that period of time then I'd be extremely grateful.

I'm posting this in all my games that are in the day phase.

Thanks,

Martyn
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Post Post #436 (ISO) » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:00 pm

Post by IH »

Flavah latah


---------------Votecount------------------------
Cubsfan4ever -1- (Yamahako)
Yamahako -3- (skruffs, Cubsfan4ever, SpectrumVoid)


Not Voting-Ubertimmy, Mert, Cuban Smoker, Abbott, Thrawn1020
With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch
Last edited by IH on Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #437 (ISO) » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:27 pm

Post by AbboTT »

I really don't get it.

We still haven't figured out exactly what all happened last night, right?
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Post Post #438 (ISO) » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:19 pm

Post by thrawn1020 »

Not unless someone has been holding out on us. I think my explanation sort of fits, but it is working from the theory that there are no surprises lurking behind closed doors regarding any potential roleblocks, doc protects, potential SK's, one-shots... the possibilities are pretty wide open, so I figured I would try to deal with only the ones that seem reasonable. Now if the vig didn't kill...then we really have a mystery.

Mod-directed question: why does it say that there are four votes on yamahako when only skruffs, cubsfan, and spectrumvoid are listed voting for him? Is that correct?
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Post Post #439 (ISO) » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:27 am

Post by Skruffs »

thrawn - tha'ts kind of my reasoning, too. We can not accurately speculate what happened last night, until we know what happened last night, and then speculation isn't necessary. Yam sayign that cubs killed jack (if I remember correctly) will keep my vote nestled safely on him.

I'm not a double voter, if that's a worry.
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Post Post #440 (ISO) » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:50 am

Post by Yamahako »

Skruffs wrote:thrawn - tha'ts kind of my reasoning, too. We can not accurately speculate what happened last night, until we know what happened last night, and then speculation isn't necessary. Yam sayign that cubs killed jack (if I remember correctly) will keep my vote nestled safely on him.

I'm not a double voter, if that's a worry.
Huh? I didn't say Cubs killed jack, I'm saying Cubs is scummy and suspicious. I have no way of knowing who killed who.

There must be something wrong with my verbage, because it seems no matter how clear what I think I'm saying is, people seem to infer something different in it.

What I actually postulated is that HD tried to kill jack, and mafia tried to kill HD, and jack targeted HD. Though the vig/sk scenario is more likely. HD would have been one of the best mafia targets anyway because of her lack of posting yesterday - Jack was still an "easy target" and could have been put under pressure if he had survived to day 2.
I'm suspicious - in every sense of the word.
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Post Post #441 (ISO) » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:17 am

Post by Skruffs »

I think mafia try to kill people who are unlikely to get lynched, don't they?
Lurkers get lynched a lot.
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Post Post #442 (ISO) » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:17 am

Post by Skruffs »

In fact, if I remember correctly, it was one of the driving forces behind ANdrewS lynches yesterday.
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Post Post #443 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:40 am

Post by thrawn1020 »

*bump* It's now Sunday, and we haven't had anything since Friday. Still waiting on official clarification from the mod(I'm positive it's a mistake though). Mostly, though, I'd like people to post that they're here. Are there people who haven't posted since their little "I'm back after the fall!" ditty earlier, or people who haven't come back to us yet? If so, please prod them. Thanks in advance.
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Post Post #444 (ISO) » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:52 pm

Post by IH »

Ok, your moderator has made a decision. There will be a retractable deadline set for May 21st


(If anyone cares, that is a week and three days after I turn 18, and three days after I graduate ^_^)
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Post Post #445 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:55 am

Post by thrawn1020 »

Ubertimmy was the last person to come back after the forums went down, and has posted only one short note. Mod, please disregard my earlier requests, and prod Ubertimmy.

Vote: Ubertimmy


Opinions, please.
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Post Post #446 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 3:28 am

Post by AbboTT »

Are you voting him solely for lurking?
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Post Post #447 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 3:48 am

Post by spectrumvoid »

I'm here, was away for exams (banned from computer during exams.)

At this point, I don't have anything else to add. I'll probably do an extensive read soon.
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Post Post #448 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 6:04 am

Post by cuban smoker »

Mert: my 'suspicious post' and you response are both still here, on page 15-16 I believe.

vote: ubertimmy
for chronic lurking, voting for me without thinking for himself & for claiming that he was a really bad lynch yesterday. I stand by my claim that only mafia & power roles would say this, and since we are missing... 3 power roles and 0 mafia, that ubertimmy is my suspect ichiban!
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Post Post #449 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 6:30 am

Post by Yamahako »

It doesn't really mean anything, but Ubertimmy is not very active in any of my games that he is playing.
I'm suspicious - in every sense of the word.

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