Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[Avinyl]

I am sorry, i didn't notice that the forums were available again. I have forgotten most of this game, so i will reread before saying anything.

[gorckat]

Guradian seems very town.

Peter seems like very good scum to me, he is appearing very pro town and asking just the right questions. he's almost being too perfect of a townie, and it rasies my suspicions, but its mostly a gut feeling.

Raffels, i know it seems im lurking. but there are so little scumtells to me, i can't comment with any kind of content. the downtime kicked the shit outta my attention span as well, if it wasn't bad enough.

gorkrat, thanks for defending me indirectly, i dont know what to make of it. you could have ment nothing by it, or you may be trying to gain me as an allie very subtly (<is that a word?). maybe im reading too much into it.

FoS John

- Since Guardian's tag reset to Townsperson, I'd say its conclusive my voting you for that reason was over the top. But Occult is right- gut feelings and too-townie were gone over earlier. I am always skeptical of a "its just gut" statement, as I have stated. Something was doen to give you that feeling.

As for defending you: yes, you've read too much into it I'm looking at Avi's reasons right now because I think they aren't that strong. Same with yours, which we might get to in more depth shortly. If you happen to be town, then great.

And in Preview, I see Avynil's back

[Raffles]

Of course the scum care about what happens in the day. It's in a scum's best interest to get a townie lynched during the day, and then get another kill at night. If the scum don't "put on their town face", then they can't hope to appear to be scum-hunting, and therefore kill their chances of getting a win.

No. Say there was no discussion. It's always a random lynch. Then the odds will

always

be in scum's favour, because there is

always

more scums in any given ongoing game. Then all scum should care about during the day is not getting himself lynched.

Manipulation becomes important in later days, when scum cannot go and lurk.

[John]

It was nothing more than a gut feeling. I said you sholdnt VOTE on a gut feeling. i didn't even FoS. i just simply interjected my opinon. I have no proof. my only proof is that he is playing the game too well, and thats basicly anti-proof. hence no vote, no fos.

Gut feelings are fine. voting on them are not.

As far as me posting in conjuction with peter, i don't think anythng of it. its been by chance. ill be posting i this thread alot more because we now have a livly disscusion on which can comment now, unlike before.

[Peter Venkman]

@ John> It is hard for me to take you seriously. I cannot defend gut feelings, yet I don't want to ignore your accusation.

Guardian is my no1 suspicion, followed by Mustafa15, followed by John. These three have displayed some interesting voting patterns, cover for each other, or just ignore some fairly important posts.

After everyone has re-confirmed I'd like to put pressure on one of those three. Thoughts?

-Peter

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

It was nothing more than a gut feeling. I said you sholdnt VOTE on a gut feeling. i didn't even FoS. i just simply interjected my opinon. I have no proof. my only proof is that he is playing the game too well, and thats basicly anti-proof. hence no vote, no fos.

Gut feelings are fine. voting on them are not.

I like this rebuttal to your comments Gorc and Occult. As far as I can see, he's not being hypocritical in his statement, because he didn't use his gut feeling to justify a vote, he used it to express concern about another player's play style. Having said that, I would like for you try to articulate what you find unsettling about Peter's play, John, if you can.

This statement doesn't sit well with me:

ill be posting i this thread alot more because we now have a livly disscusion on which can comment now, unlike before.

How is there more lively discussion now, post break? The majority of what we're going to talk about occurred pre-break. We had 234 posts pre-break. Are you telling me that there was

nothing

to talk about in those 234 posts?

As far as pressuring people, I definitely think we need to wait until we get everyone back. We had a LOT of lurkers before the break. I'd call for pressure on Avi, DLMF, John, Ichigo, mustafa, and Vryk, just on the basis of either lurking or fluff-posting. That's

50%

of the players in this game - and everyone on that list with the exception of John has less than 12 posts.

This is my first mini-sized game. Is this level of lurking normal? It's beyond frustrating, IMO.

[Vryklan]

[quote="Raffles"]No. Say there was no discussion. It's always a random lynch. Then the odds will

always

be in scum's favour, because there is

always

more scums in any given ongoing game. Then all scum should care about during the day is not getting himself lynched.[quote]

But there is a discussion and a bloody long one at that. So its not a random lynch its a lynch in the townies favour hopefully so if the scum sit back and don't care they will find themselves on the lynch list quickly.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

No. Say there was no discussion. It's always a random lynch. Then the odds will

always

be in scum's favour, because there is

always

more scums in any given ongoing game. Then all scum should care about during the day is not getting himself lynched.

But there is a discussion and a bloody long one at that. So its not a random lynch its a lynch in the townies favour hopefully so if the scum sit back and don't care they will find themselves on the lynch list quickly.

Thank you!

[Sefer]

I have prodded Ichigo, DLMF, and mustafa15, who I believe to be the only ones who have not yet checked in since the boards came back up. I'll give 'em a few days before I start looking for any replacements.

[mustafa15]

I never got a prod, but I'm here.

I'm still trying to figure out Peter's whole "townies aren't afraid to die" thing. A townie's main goal is to lynch scum, and if a townie is about to be lynched, I would expect them to try and get not lynched, simply because they want to lynch a scum and not a townie. I guess scum might be a bit more freaked out, but I just don't see how anyone would be ok with being lynched (except for a jester, but whatever).

[Peter Venkman]

<Sigh> It isn't that complicated and the people who don't understand it are applying it to a broader scope than intended. It is my oppinion that a town player shouldn't play to stay alive. If you simply spend your time trying to oust scum than you shouldn't look suspicious and thus no-one will vote on you. If you play to stay alive, you will look like scum.

Guardian seems to be playing to stay alive, in fact, he admitted so.

-Peter

[Guardian]

Unvote Vote: Ichigo

Tried to pressure before the break, it got undone... here it goes again.
VRK, I am so sorry for what happened at VT, my heart is with you...
Occult Avi and Peter still top my list... I did a post point by point analysis on Peter that got erased and I really don't have the motivation to do it again, but I'll summarize by saying that Peter, your repeated reasoning that townies should not be afraid of dying is at best misguided. Others have explained why, basically, if there is no vig and townies all just lynch other townies... they lose. Each townie should be trying very hard to stay alive, because if they get mislynched that is one mislynch closer to winning for the scum. It is always preferable for the town to lynch scum, and not town.

Even though about half the frequent posters think I am really pro town or whatnot, I have to say again I disagree with too town being a fallacy. If someone looks like they are trying to look like town but are in fact not town, that can be a great tell for them being scum. Yes, if they look perfectly town... it is WIFOM and doesn't work, but if they slip up a bit or whatnot it can be a great way to catch people.

I'd love to pressure Ichigo back into posting, but after that Peter is near the top for me because of his lack of willingness to meet me anywhere near halfway on the 'its ok to be lynched as a town' point, and because he defended Occult then got even more suspicious of me after I unvoted Occult (am I getting this right? too late for a reread...) + other reasons I had that I will reread and remember.

Anyways, yeah that's what I'm feeling right now...

[Raffles]

But there is a discussion and a bloody long one at that. So its not a random lynch its a lynch in the townies favour hopefully so if the scum sit back and don't care they will find themselves on the lynch list quickly.

Still, this is still a hypothetical situation. But suppose everyone could act a perfect townie, and they do so. Then the lynch choice would be no better than choice made without discussion. There would be nothing to go on. Therefore scums would act a perfect townie, and leave the NK to whittle away the town.

[gorckat]

Let's look at a couple reasons a townie would get lynched:

1) Lurking: Not the greatest reason to lynch a person, imho, but it can happen.
2) Acting scummy: If you have opened yourself to great suspicion, you're gonna draw investigations and discussion away from scum.

These are the most likely reasons I can think of off the top of my head at the moment.

If you are wasting investigations and distracting the town from true scum, then you're not being helpful. Lynching a person like that early might just save the game before it gets to lylo and the best choice is the scummy looking fella that survived each night, at which point the game is lost for the town.

A townie getting lynched is sorta like getting hit by a pitch in baseball- you don't get to swing the bat right now, it hurt like hell, but you helped the team by getting on base- in a game of mafia you narrowed down the field of likely scum.

Therefore: if a townie gets themselves lynched, they most likely brought it on themselves and weren't helping much (or the least of all the rest) anyways.

Play to find scum, not stay alive. I agree with Peter wholeheartedly on that.

[Raffles]

I would put Lurking as 3). The typical order I usually see would be

1) Acting scummy - note the definition: inconsistency and/or scum-tells
2) Unhelpful townie - "This person could be a townie but he is acting unhelpful to the town, so we won't lose out much even if he was a town"
3) Lurking - I've not seen anyone gets lynched just solely from lurking. This is usually a side dish with either 1) or 2) as the main course.

[Peter Venkman]

Peter, your repeated reasoning that townies should not be afraid of dying is at best misguided.

Yeah, well I think your continued misrepresentation of what I said, despite my several attempts at clarification, is pretty scummy.

-Peter

[Guardian]

From post 130:

Sometimes it is in the town's interest for other townies to die.

From post 217:

Townies don't need to look pro-town. They state their logic, make votes,

and often die

. See, a town player dying

can

actually help the town team.

So we should just accept that townies often get mislynched and not try to correct it?

From post 219:

Guardian appears to be very interested in staying alive. He even said so himself. If you choose to make the "he's a newbie" excuse you are engaging in WIFOM. Is he really a newbie?

I'm especially suspicious of his response

was essentially "I don't care,

I just want to stay alive." That isn't a pro-town attitude.

Remember, this just came after I pointed out to him that Town players shouldn't be obsessed with living.

....and since I've gone and made such a big deal out it I expect everyone to now come along and say "Oh man, I don't care if I die! I'm town!" See why I try not to point out scum tells and just vote?

How is a town trying to stay alive not pro-town?

From post 228:

Peter, your posts seem to be obsessed with reasoning that it is OK for a pro-town player to die...

You misread. The death of a scum player is significantly more important early game than the death of a town player. At this point

town shouldn't be scared of death

, whereas Scum are.

From post 236:

Looking at raw odds, it

is likely that a town player will be lynched day one.

Knowing this, a good town player shouldn't freak out (like Guardian has) when facing a potential lynch:

chances are good the town will just lynch another townie.

Sure, a good town player should defend himself, but clearly stating your game intention as staying alive appears scummy to me.

The town players can afford a day one loss, whereas a day one scum loss is twofold: they are statisticly closer to losing the game and they lose a voice of manipulation during the day.

Again, we should just accept this and not play to live and kill scum?

From post 260

<Sigh> It isn't that complicated and the people who don't understand it are applying it to a broader scope than intended. It is my oppinion that a town player shouldn't play to stay alive. If you simply spend your time trying to oust scum than you shouldn't look suspicious and thus no-one will vote on you. If you play to stay alive, you will look like scum.

Guardian seems to be playing to stay alive, in fact, he admitted so.

All emphasis mine. Peter, these are the only posts (or at least the great majority of them) where you addressed your reasoning about how towns should play and how they should think about town deaths...

You directly say that town shouldn't be scared of death, yet you say that my paraphrasing you by saying that

townies should not being afraid of dying

is a misrepresentation of your logic?

You switch your rhetoric at post 236, no longer saying towns shouldn't be afraid to die, but saying that they shouldn't be playing to live. I fail to see the logical distinction.

This is why I am so suspicious of you. You keep responding in posts that appear to be all nice and reasoned out, but you really just keep throwing suspicion back on me for whatever reason you can muster, as you have from the beginning of the game. You, if scum, get to appear to have conviction in my guilt, while attempting to convince the rest of the town that I'm scum...

You've said I've ignored posts when I haven't, you've said I write lengthy but poor reason posts which IMO I haven't, then complain that town players should try and out scum and then complain about my trying to lead the town and my vote switching when I find new potential scum. I've unvoted Avi at your request and logic that putting him at -3 was a bad decision, and you still find fault with me for that. I find most your logic in finding me suspicious at fault, and I find your attempt to mislead the town into being suspicious of me as very scummy.

[Occult]

I don't believe Guardian trying to stay alive is scummy, I am do have my suspicions but this isn't one of them.

On the other hand, Guardian brings up some fair points, I agree with peter to some extent but I don't believe its a good reason to attack someone.

Sefer, any word from Ichigo?

[John]

@ Peter> The way you have been playing is what my concern is. To me, you have been on the outside, interjecting your opinion, not lurking, but in my opinion, not saying anything that may shed light on you. There is no specific post i can relate this to, hence you are not scum to me at this moment, i think we should just keep you in our periferals.
I've seen clever scum post in the same style you have, that's all.

Also, i get what yoour saying about how a townie lynch is okay, but it should always be a priority to stay alive, because you being alive ALWAYS helps your side, town or mafia. Death information isn't always reliable, mostly because good scum can twist the info into the way they like.

My feelings to guardian are the same. I don't think he is scum. He is being very careful, asking hard, dirct questions, and trusting nobody. That is very town behavior to me. To be honest, he is new, so the possiblity of him being extremly clever scum are slim to none in my opinion.

[Sefer]

Neither Ichigo or DLMF have received their prods (meaning they haven't signed in to MafiaScum since I sent them). I'll give them another day before I start looking for replacements.

[Occult]

I'm just bumping this over the string of finished games...

[Raffles]

But anything to contribute?

[Occult]

But anything to contribute?

Not Really, it was just annoying me. I'm really waiting for Ichigo (or his replacement) to answer the suspicions I posted a page back.

Also, I want to hear somthing from Avi, more then another "I'm back!". He hasn't added much the game, that also goes for DLMF.

The finished games ahead of this one annoyed me so I bumbed it.

Now, do you have anything to contribute?

[mustafa15]

Are your suspicions just that he's lurking? We've got a lot of stuff going on in this game, I think you're being a bit overenthusiastic on Ichigo. You've posted something telling him to stop lurking, you've asked Sefer to prod him, and he's probably going to be replaced. It feels to me like your banging your head against a brick wall, and not quite catching on that the wall

isn't actually there.

[Occult]

Avi more so then Ichigo, when someone posts very few times and most of those times the posts don't even have any real content, I find it scummy.

I don't see how I'm banging my head against a wall that isn't there. I have four posts where ichigo is mentioned, one tells why I'm suspicious of him (It's not just lurking) and two of them have him paired with Avi or DLMF(in a 12 player game we really don't need 3 people not posting). I actually haven't really pushed hard for an Ichigo lynch.

Now, was your post a defence of Ichigo, an attack on me or just some sorta of filler post you threw in?