Micro 310: Shitty Joke Smalltown II (game over)

[Brian Skies]

I'm only halfway through on my re-read. I'll finish catching up tomorrow. Gotta wake up early.

[N]

Vote Count 2.03

Mitillos

(0)

Micc

(0)

absta101

(0)

farside22

(0)

PrivateI

(2)

Mitillos, jklash12

Brian Skies

(0)

TierShift

(1) absta101

jklash12

(0)

Not Voting

(5) farside22, PrivateI, Brian Skies, TierShift, Micc

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-04-10 21:55:07)

V/LA:

farside22 on weekends

[farside22]

No I'm pushing a lynch on private and have a nullread on absta on whom I don't understand your townread.

I'll talk about micc after an iso.

Most of what you pointed to Absta is a gut read, general comments you see as scummy. I just don't see it and when i asked you I get this:

It's just the general feeling I get when he talks about the wagon and I thought 366 showed that he thought lynching the cop was scummy, but upon reading it 5 times it states something else.

Seeing that he doesn't mind being PL'd is a good sign, I guess.

Anyway, we are pointing all our arrows at one person only, pri. What to do when she flips whatever alignment? You (far, absta) are talking about me being scum, why exactly is that again?

Whatcha looking at the clock for? 24 hours almost up?
I think we're not quite ready for the hammer.

I know people read things differently then others, but I'm not sure how you expect me to get your point when you don't show one that I can grasp.

[farside22]

@micc: here are a few game references for absta.

town game

scum replacement

town game

scum game

When you are done review tell me your thoughts.

[TierShift]

I know people read things differently then others, but I'm not sure how you expect me to get your point when you don't show one that I can grasp.

Ok, that's fair.

I don't think he's pri's partner so let's go for the pri flip.

[farside22]

I know people read things differently then others, but I'm not sure how you expect me to get your point when you don't show one that I can grasp.

Ok, that's fair.

I don't think he's pri's partner so let's go for the pri flip.

I decided because of things I can't discuss right now that I'm holding off on voting for a bit longer.
it doesn't hurt that I'm waiting for Micc to answer the meta question or that I'm still waiting on Tier to explain the town read and Brain K to post his thoughts.

[PrivateI]

Ugh, I don't like MafBlack as much as I thought. It makes it difficult to see when new posts are made.

If you're all down to lynch me, I quite honestly don't know who else to go after. The wagon on me doesn't appear scum-motivated. With that in mind, I guess I can enjoy being a Treestump and posting tomorrow.

With that in mind, I have a few thoughts.

Farside, why so wishy-washy? When I hadn't posted, was there any harm in immediately voting for me? I wasn't anywhere near L-1 at the time.

Just to confirm, I'm still able to post anything game related (scum reads, setup speculation, etc.) if and when I die, right?

[farside22]

Ugh, I don't like MafBlack as much as I thought. It makes it difficult to see when new posts are made.

If you're all down to lynch me, I quite honestly don't know who else to go after. The wagon on me doesn't appear scum-motivated. With that in mind, I guess I can enjoy being a Treestump and posting tomorrow.

With that in mind, I have a few thoughts.

Farside, why so wishy-washy? When I hadn't posted, was there any harm in immediately voting for me? I wasn't anywhere near L-1 at the time.

Just to confirm, I'm still able to post anything game related (scum reads, setup speculation, etc.) if and when I die, right?

I'm a double voter. The hammer has not voted for you either.

[PrivateI]

Ugh, I don't like MafBlack as much as I thought. It makes it difficult to see when new posts are made.

If you're all down to lynch me, I quite honestly don't know who else to go after. The wagon on me doesn't appear scum-motivated. With that in mind, I guess I can enjoy being a Treestump and posting tomorrow.

With that in mind, I have a few thoughts.

Farside, why so wishy-washy? When I hadn't posted, was there any harm in immediately voting for me? I wasn't anywhere near L-1 at the time.

Just to confirm, I'm still able to post anything game related (scum reads, setup speculation, etc.) if and when I die, right?

I'm a double voter. The hammer has not voted for you either.

Indeed. I do apologize. I keep forgetting the specifics of this setup.

[PrivateI]

Ok, so out of curiosity, why are we not lynching Absta?

VOTE: Absta

There are more than a few people who view him as scummy, and he is a DEFINITE detriment to town in the endgame. And he will make it to endgame. No scumteam in their right mind would shoot that.

[Micc]

I'm waiting for Micc to answer the meta question

Forgive me for not having the time or motivation to look at that right now. Maybe once this hell of a week called registration gets over with I can go back to it. I'm really not sure what you want me to look for, and don't really like putting a whole lot of stock in two year old scum games anyway so no promises.

PrivateI, lets hear some reads on players who aren't Absta.

[absta101]

@Brian

I'm only halfway through on my re-read. I'll finish catching up tomorrow. Gotta wake up early.

Wth is this? Why are you re-reading the whole game? All you've been doing lately is prod dodging. Just post your reads and we'll move on from there.
--

@Private

Ok, so out of curiosity, why are we not lynching Absta?

VOTE: Absta

There are more than a few people who view him as scummy

, and he is a DEFINITE detriment to town in the endgame. And he will make it to endgame. No scumteam in their right mind would shoot that.

The bolded. You don't say i'm scummy, you just say people find me scummy. That's such a terrible reason and you look even more scummy for it.
Also, we've been over the whole detriment thing. It doesn't make sense to lynch me because of my role unless you have a scum read on Farside.

[absta101]

@Mitt

- Is Micc still a town read and Why?
What's your read on Tier?

[absta101]

@Tier

I believe private is scum and it is either Micc or Tier as the second scum.

I don't think it's either of us!

Farside, I think you missed my question on absta. Why is he not in your scumspects? Why isn't brian?

Why is Micc a town read?

[farside22]

I'm starting to have this rage moment and i'm trying to find a way to be calm.
If I say something offensive I appologize ahead of time but trying to express certain things is difficult without sounding insulting.

That said I'm starting to read private as bad town.
*pause for effect*
I haven't played mafia in a year (give or take) but I have been reminded that players tend to be stupid are town (as I said offensive but trying to put it nicely doesn't get the point through).
I personally do not like the hammer or even Private's wording. I did a short meta dive into private as well (and when I have time I will post the links) his scum game is not idiotic in the least. I just remember that off the top of my head but links will come tomorrow with this.

Micc: I linked 2 games from absta that was from less then a year ago. Why does it matter how old the meta is anyways?
Also I asked you because you seem to be a type from what I have read that meta read players.

[Mitillos]

@absta:
Micc took the trouble of trying to figure out a best course of action for the town. If his conclusion was a correct one, I'd be 100% town-reading him. Unfortunately, as I said a couple of times now, his conclusion was incorrect, so I'm not quite that certain. He could be scum, trying to direct the town down a bad path. Or, he could be town who simply got it wrong.
On the whole, I still lean town on him.

Tier may well be scum. His posts at the end of D1 bothered me a bit. And today, it seemed like he was trying to move the discussion away from PrivateI. We'll see.

@farside: If not PrivateI, then who? In any case, his actions could indicate bad town, or they could indicate lurking scum. There was only one investigative role in the game. Suppose PrivateI's buddy is someone who isn't being suspected by anyone right now. PrivateI's power means that even if he gets lynched, he can continue talking the next day. He can say whatever, spam the thread slightly, make it harder for the town to gain cohesion. The sacrifice of a Treestump is minimal, compared to ensuring that there is no investigation, if there is a reasonable chance his partner won't be suspected.
PrivateI's vote came quite suddenly, once Yiley was one non-absta vote away from lynching. He's also pretty much lurking the game away. He gave a not-really-a-read on Yiley and now is saying that "others think absta is scum". These aren't reads.
Also, he's saying that we should lynch absta, so he doesn't make it to LyLo. But there are two problems with this:
1) His actions made it so we could already be in LyLo.
2) I already explained why we need to keep absta alive today and concentrate on finding scum, instead of trying to be clever with the setup. There will be time enough to do a strategic lynch tomorrow, if we find scum. And if we don't, keeping absta around is the only thing that gives us a second chance tomorrow (if farside does happen to be scum; otherwise we're in a much better position anyway).

[farside22]

@farside: If not PrivateI, then who? In any case, his actions could indicate bad town, or they could indicate lurking scum. There was only one investigative role in the game. Suppose PrivateI's buddy is someone who isn't being suspected by anyone right now. PrivateI's power means that even if he gets lynched, he can continue talking the next day. He can say whatever, spam the thread slightly, make it harder for the town to gain cohesion. The sacrifice of a Treestump is minimal, compared to ensuring that there is no investigation, if there is a reasonable chance his partner won't be suspected.
PrivateI's vote came quite suddenly, once Yiley was one non-absta vote away from lynching. He's also pretty much lurking the game away. He gave a not-really-a-read on Yiley and now is saying that "others think absta is scum". These aren't reads.
Also, he's saying that we should lynch absta, so he doesn't make it to LyLo. But there are two problems with this:
1) His actions made it so we could already be in LyLo.
2) I already explained why we need to keep absta alive today and concentrate on finding scum, instead of trying to be clever with the setup. There will be time enough to do a strategic lynch tomorrow, if we find scum. And if we don't, keeping absta around is the only thing that gives us a second chance tomorrow (if farside does happen to be scum; otherwise we're in a much better position anyway).

At this point I feel like I'm trying to clear the bad from the good.
Like I have a town read on absta and I don't get the scum read that both Tier and Micc indicate.
If I'm correct about bad town then Private is gone. from the list I'm town. So that leaves......

Micc, Tier, Brian, you and Jklash.
I would have to reread each of the people since I tend to tunnel to narrow it down further.

I don't disagree that Private's vote came quickly, it was even as I pointed out a contradiction of her thoughts. She could be doing exactly as you believe is another option. It's WIFOM theory and I would rather look into what I may have missed before lynching another player based on theory. I need to some times sort my thoughts out and sit back and think if I missed something.
We have 10 days and I don't mind a discussion. I would rather be feeling good and believing I lynched scum because if wrong we end up in lylo tomorrow.

[farside22]

Question to Jklash:

Yiley, any opinions on anyone?

As for what I think. No major scum reads yet. I think absta looks kind of fishy and I think farside looks town right now.

What made you think absta looked fishy?

Ok I think Brian's posts look pretty straightforward and genuine. I am thinking Brian is town.

Micc's play looks similar to his play in the game where he was scum. I went back and compared I don't see anything that suggest he is town. So I am leaning scum on Micc.

Why did you not vote here when you made this observation?

To be honest, I am not quite sure what I am doing anymore. I am so confused.

UNVOTE:

What was the confusion about? Do you have scum suspects?

That was a good post, Micc, about the outcomes. So it looks like it could be beneficial to town by PL absta D1 or D2 because his vote basically just is help for the scum team. I think I would be down for a PL on Absta more on D2 because I still like my Yiley vote.

I'm not getting the scum read to good point from Micc about policy lynching. Why was it a good point.

Ok, are we going to go with the lynch absta today because of his role?

Why would you think a PL is a good idea if :

Whether or not that vote by PrivateI counted, that vote sucks and reeks of survivalism.

You believe the following about Private?

[farside22]

Mit: Some questions for you:

Liking jk for town. And yeah, pick your message target to be anyone you think is town, as long as it's not Brian (obviously).

@absta: I think Yiley should decide on his own how to pick his investigation target.

What did JK say that changed your view of him?

@Yiley: Care to explain the discrepancy Micc laid out in post 188? If you believe that town behaviour entails extensive involvement, why are you not engaging people here? How does staying away from the discussion help the town?

@Micc: Could you give me the link to the game where Yiley says this, please? You only linked his scumgame, as far as I can see.

This bothers me a bit consider later you stated the follow reason's for town reading Micc:

@farside: Post 36: Concern regarding the worst case scenario for town.

Post 113: Defended absta a little and made his intentions regarding you (the double-voter) clear, stating he didn't see either of you as scummy. This was largely unprompted, which shows interest in both townhunting and scumhunting.

Post 142: Trying to make the most of the roles, in terms of finding scum.Trying to break the game in favour of the town is good (even though I don't think it can work in this setup), and it's not being done at the expense of scumhunting, which would be a thing scum is more likely to do.

In addition, his case on Yiley is a very good starting point,

at the very least. Saying that involvement is good and then staying largely out of the game is a clear contradiction.

Speaking of which, I found the link to the game where Yiley said that and I disagree with jklash. Yiley appears very active in that game, as a JK and most intervals of low activity from him seem to be centred around rl stuff (V/LA and so on) and night phases.

p-edit: @Tier: It's not about whether I can read or not. Someone called the clarity of your reads into question. Being abrasive about it doesn't help town, when you can just give the names or the post number where you believe that you gave your reads clearly. Sure, you don't have to, but it's not that difficult. And even if you don't, there's no need to say something as pointless as "You really can't filter out of my post who my scumspects are?". Like I said, it looks like stalling.

I understand not wanting to trust someone else's opinion of Yiley so readily, but that's exactly the problem. You're asking the town to do what you are refusing to do. You said "Yiley is easy to read imo so just leave that shit to me.", not "absta's probably wrong about Yiley".

As for my paragraphing, no, it used to be much worse, in my opinion. What would make my posts more readable, in your opinion? (Anyone can answer this.)

Why is it a good starting point if most of it was meta referrencing a scum game?

@Yiley: You could have at least responded to what was said. Particularly Micc's meta read on you. Your earlier response to my question did not satisfy me, since you don't seem to actually be doing what you said (i.e. sorting people out). You are basically lurking and trying to keep out of sight. You said yourself that this is not pro-town and you were correct.

Vote: Yiley

Why was it scummy that Yiley comes in and post and in that post he thinks he is being replaced so doesn't say anything to what is going on in the game?
Did you know if replaced a player is not supposed to post in the game?

To be completely honest, I'd rather lynch PrivateI or Yiley, at this point. Both have lurked the game away and I'm not seeing much in the way of scumminess from the other players, yet.

In fact, PrivateI has basically only really talked about Yiley. As farside pointed out, he hasn't given any scumreads. He's been sitting on his RV and his biggest contributions were to 1) sort of suggest a no-lynch and 2) defend Yiley, without even giving a read on him, until much later (111 posts and 5 days later, to be precise).

So, my preferential lynch order is PrivateI > Yiley > absta (only for strategic purposes) > anyone else.

Vote: PrivateI

In the worst case, where he flips town, we can still decide on whether we want to lynch absta tomorrow.

Incidentally, anyone who believes that absta is town should want to keep absta alive for now and try to find his partner, instead. The reason is that, just as a town hammerer can be manipulated by scum, a scum hammerer can be manipulated by the town. His vote is not his own. As counter-intuitive as this sounds, if you think absta is scum, you should look for his partner first, at least for D1.

Not a fan of lets lynch lurkers policy. Is it normal for you to think scum is in the lurker pool?

[farside22]

While I'm thinking: @Jklash and Mit: Who are your current scum suspects and why?

I'll have more tomorrow. I

[Brian Skies]

I think it's a possibility he is lynchbait. He lurked bad and made a questionable hammer, clearly he is going to be a target for scum. Yiley lurked and was pretty much terrible but he still flipped town. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that PrivateI is town.

I agree here. After reading through, PrivateI seemed slightly confused about the Yiley suspicion and even said that his experience with Yiley on another forum was telling him that Yiley's inactivity here wasn't alignment indicative. His hammer yesterday looked more like a deadline compromise/possible survivalism than anything and I don't see why scum would want to bring attention to themselves with a fake hammer. That and he seems to completely lack survivalism here.

I mean, who else was going to get lynched that day? PrivateI? Maybe tier? And I find it odd that people are calling for his head when several people advocated the Yiley lynch for most of the day.

I'm also curious why people are scum-reading PrivateI for hammering Yiley but not Jklash who found his way onto the wagon without much reason for a 180-flippped Yiley read (which is also something I'd like Jklash to talk about).

I don't care if doesn't have a net gain. It doesn't have a net loss. Am I the only one who understands that?

I understand this, but I don't think Absta is scum. I don't see the same problem with his reads as you do as I can see his trajectories. And the way he seems to be poking most of the playerslist and trying to figure out people's alignments seems town-motivated.

@Micc: But I explained why there is a net loss. If farside is scum, lynching absta now means we automatically lose if the next lynch is a mislynch. No more chances. On the other hand, if we do that lynch first and it does turn out to be a mislynch, we could still have a chance to survive, if absta is still around. That's the net loss of lynching absta now.

I don't understand this. Micc is arguing there's no net loss because we can get a free flip on Absta and you're counterarguing there's a net loss if we mislynch tomorrow? How do we have a chance to survive if Absta is still around and PrivateI turns out to be a mislynch?

Yiley is always active. Him lurking means he doesn't want to get involved. But hey, I was wrong.

I'm curious as to how much of Yiley's meta you took a look through before coming to this conclusion. I took a quick gander and it seemed to me that he was decently active in Pick Your Poison as scum before being replaced by N.

Being opposed to a wagon and then jumping on it as it's getting traction is a scumtell actually

He hammered it though. And don't you think scum would be more aware of how many votes were on a wagon as it was gaining steam?

Also, following this description of PrivateI's jump onto the wagon, what is your opinion of Jklash?

Private why did you vote yiley? What made him scummy?

I want a response to this.

As for Micc he has asked shitty questions that are not aligment driven and wants to push a lynch a player based on game mechanics and has only discussed on scum suspect thus far. What makes him town in your oppinion?

I'm a little concerned about Micc because I feel like his play here is very manipulative. However, the feeling I get from his posts is that he genuinely believes in what he's saying.

Fasinating that yiley got called for that but not private.

Pretty sure it was "Yiley's inactivity is alignment indicative," "PrivateI's is not."

Not sure if this is the exact reference I was thinking of, but somehow I got the impression you preferred to pick the target and push for the mislynch wholeheartedly. That seems to be a decent description of your Day1 here.

Really? I don't get the feeling that he's getting to pick his preferred targets, but his targets do seem to match those I think scum would think as easy mislynches.

Wth is this? Why are you re-reading the whole game? All you've been doing lately is prod dodging. Just post your reads and we'll move on from there.

Because it's something I usually do? It's how I develop my reads. I'm just a slower reader than most.

I already explained why we need to keep absta alive today and concentrate on finding scum

I'm still confused as to why you think this.

[Mitillos]

@farside: My view of jk didn't change at that point. It formed. I had been trying to figure him out, before that. I think it was mostly jklash's response to absta, in post 167. I'm not sure I can explain why, but it reads as town to me. There were a couple of other things later, as well, but I probably should ISO jklash again, just in case.

Regarding Micc's case on Yiley, I was actually mistaken in 207. I went back and looked; Micc had also posted a town game for Yiley, where he specifically said that this sort of behaviour was anti-town. In any case, a previous scum game where we see the same behaviour as in this one, really is a good place to start, when making a case. It's not a case on its own, but it's something one can actually work with. So, yeah, Micc's meta on Yiley was a good starting point, even if it turned out to be wrong.

If replaced, sure, a player needs to stop posting. But he hadn't been replaced yet. He could easily just ask the mod to let him continue posting, since he was still present. Then he wouldn't need to make a post as useless as "Oh, I'm getting replaced."

If most of the active players look at least somewhat town, or even null, then yes, I'll tunnel lurkers, until something significant happens, to change my mind about someone. Anyone who isn't actively trying to find scum is helping scum with their apathy. Anyway, PrivateI isn't simply lurking. He's been an active lurker throughout. He got a few prods, dodged a few more and pretty much avoid any actual participation in the game.

My main scum suspect is PrivateI. I already explained why, a few times. I guess the next highest would probably be Tier, as I mentioned in my previous post. Beyond that, I'm not really sure, so if either of these two happens to be town, I'll really have to do some re-reading.

@Brian: I have explained this already...
Suppose we lynch absta today for strategic reasons. Then, say we mislynch. Now, say farside is scum (worst case scenario). Then there are 6 votes left, scum controls 3, town controls 3. Scum cannot be lynched, so they win. The game is automatically over.
Now suppose we don't waste a day lynching absta. Say we mislynch today and farside is scum (same scenario as above). Then there are 7 votes left, scum controls 4, but

town also controls 4

. If the 3 remaining town players are quicker than the 2 scum players, they could still get a scum lynch and survive.
In both these cases, we only have one mislynch. An absta lynch doesn't save us a day, because it also takes a day away already. The absta flip itself is irrelevant, if we are only doing it for the purpose of vote control.
Furthermore, if farside is town, things are even better for us, so we really don't need to lynch absta in that situation.

So, the only reason to lynch absta is if you actually believe he is scum and you really can't find his partner. As it happens, I'm townreading absta and scumreading PrivateI, so I'm against an absta lynch.

[jklash12]

Ok, so out of curiosity, why are we not lynching Absta?

VOTE: Absta

There are more than a few people who view him as scummy, and he is a DEFINITE detriment to town in the endgame. And he will make it to endgame. No scumteam in their right mind would shoot that.

You are still scummy. That's why. I still think you are scum after that hammer and it just adds to my thoughts that you are going after absta like this.

[jklash12]

Question to Jklash:

Yiley, any opinions on anyone?

As for what I think. No major scum reads yet. I think absta looks kind of fishy and I think farside looks town right now.

What made you think absta looked fishy?

That was an early look, where he voted someone(don't recall who it was) when he and that person had the same number of votes. So it just kind of looked fishy in a sense that he voted the other person who getting votes.

Ok I think Brian's posts look pretty straightforward and genuine. I am thinking Brian is town.

Micc's play looks similar to his play in the game where he was scum. I went back and compared I don't see anything that suggest he is town. So I am leaning scum on Micc.

Why did you not vote here when you made this observation?

I did vote him in a later post. Don't know why i didn't vote him there.

To be honest, I am not quite sure what I am doing anymore. I am so confused.

UNVOTE:

What was the confusion about? Do you have scum suspects?

Well absta, I think, pointed out a flaw in my read or attack on Micc, which really made my stance invalid. Yes, day2 I have really focussed on Private for that hammer on day1.

That was a good post, Micc, about the outcomes. So it looks like it could be beneficial to town by PL absta D1 or D2 because his vote basically just is help for the scum team. I think I would be down for a PL on Absta more on D2 because I still like my Yiley vote.

I'm not getting the scum read to good point from Micc about policy lynching. Why was it a good point.

I didn't say Micc was scum. I said that absta's vote basically works for the scum team because of his hammere role. i liked his post because it pointed out the scenarios that could take place.

Ok, are we going to go with the lynch absta today because of his role?

Why would you think a PL is a good idea if :

Whether or not that vote by PrivateI counted, that vote sucks and reeks of survivalism.

You believe the following about Private?

Yes some heat was coming in on him and goes and votes for the popular Yiley read and now he is kind of doing that with absta.

[jklash12]

sorry read the last question wrong. I realize that I would rather lynch someone I think is scummy than a PL.