Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[Guardian]

Ok then... first off I would like to say that I am still baffled by Occult as he is suspicious of two people I am quite suspicious of (Vry, Avi)... but then also suspicious of me when Vry is and Avi is a little... Maybe this is distancing? Maybe my suspicions are completely off? However, he seems to be following the flow and not really trying to root anyone out (scumtell).
Overall, I'd like to know what Occult thinks his voting/fos record.

Avi Raffles Occult and Vry have some explaining to do. I almost want to vote Avinyl to pressure him back to lynch -4, but I am still more suspicious of Vry at this point.

[Guardian]

assuming official #4 was correct (which I'm sure it was):

Unofficial

Vote Count:

Guardian (2): Vryklan, Raffles
Avinyl (2): John, Vel-Rahn Koon
John (2): Ichigo, Avinyl
Vryklan (1): Guardian
Occult (1): DLMF
Not voting (4): gorckat, Occult, mustafa15, Peter Venkman

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Occult]

Ok then... first off I would like to say that I am still baffled by Occult as he is suspicious of two people I am quite suspicious of (Vry, Avi)... but then also suspicious of me when Vry is and Avi is a little... Maybe this is distancing?

I don't exactly get what your trying to say. Could you please clarify.
I'm reading this as more of a OMGUS sort of thing. I've said that I am suspisious of you and Avi mostly and that still stands.

Were not even 8 pgs. into this game yet, I'd like to get a better read on the other players before I commit to a vote.

[Peter Venkman]

Were not even 8 pgs. into this game yet, I'd like to get a better read on the other players before I commit to a vote.

This is my feeling too. While I havn't used FoS's heavily, I have been fairly clear who i'm suspicious of.

-Peter

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ok then... first off I would like to say that I am still baffled by Occult as he is suspicious of two people I am quite suspicious of (Vry, Avi)... but then also suspicious of me when Vry is and Avi is a little... Maybe this is distancing?

I don't exactly get what your trying to say. Could you please clarify.
I'm reading this as more of a OMGUS sort of thing. I've said that I am suspisious of you and Avi mostly and that still stands.

Were not even 8 pgs. into this game yet, I'd like to get a better read on the other players before I commit to a vote.

I'm assuming Guardian will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's trying to say that you (Occult) are suspicious of him (Guardian) at the same times that Vry and Avi are suspicious of him (Guardian), and that by you now being suspicious of Vry and Avi you're "distancing" yourself from your "scumbuddies".

Did I get that right Guardian?

As far as voting is concerned...

We need 7 to Lynch. We've not even come close so far, and I don't see the harm in using a vote to apply pressure to someone. FoSing is fine, but eventually you have to run someone up to 4 votes so that they either defend themselves or screw up and out themselves as scum. Just listing suspicions isn't helping to move the game forward, I'm afraid - the information may serve us well later on in the game but for now it's just giving more people the chance to lurk. We've got enough lurkers as it is - we need discussion and interaction.

I'm not saying, by any stretch, that we need to rush to a Lynch - that would be the worst thing we could do. But, we do need to keep everyone involved in the flow of ideas and information.

[Guardian]

Ok then... first off I would like to say that I am still baffled by Occult as he is suspicious of two people I am quite suspicious of (Vry, Avi)... but then also suspicious of me when Vry is and Avi is a little... Maybe this is distancing?

I don't exactly get what your trying to say. Could you please clarify.
I'm reading this as more of a OMGUS sort of thing. I've said that I am suspisious of you and Avi mostly and that still stands.

Were not even 8 pgs. into this game yet, I'd like to get a better read on the other players before I commit to a vote.

I'm assuming Guardian will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's trying to say that you (Occult) are suspicious of him (Guardian) at the same times that Vry and Avi are suspicious of him (Guardian), and that by you now being suspicious of Vry and Avi you're "distancing" yourself from your "scumbuddies".

Did I get that right Guardian?

I'll clarify - this part of my post I was further stating that I am somewhat confused and puzzled by Occult; this particular action was anti-scummy/confusing to me:
He is suspicious of me, but then is also suspicious of Avi and Vryklan. If Avi/Vryklan and Occult are scum buddies targeting me, then it would not make sense for Occult to target Avi/Vryklan as well as me, except as a distancing measure. However, Occult IS targeting BOTH of them as well as me, so his actions, while targeting me, do not seem to be coordinated with either of Avi/Vryklan who I see one of as probably being scum. So (distancing aside) it seems unlikely that Occult is a scum mate with Avi or Vryklan, who seem the most scummy to me, this making him unlikely to be a scum in my opinion.

When I say "Maybe this is distancing? Maybe my suspicions [of Vryklan and Avinyl] are completely off?" I am saying that those are the two cases where Occult's actions in targeting Avi and Vryklan could be seen as being compatible with Occult being scum.

My accusation of Occult, however, which he has not addressed, is that of going with the flow on all his voting/fos's, and not independently targeting anyone.

I feel like pressuring Avinyl; Vel's post makes sense.

Note: this is lynch -3, be careful with votes.

I still am highly suspicious of Vryklan and Raffles, and now Occult to an extent, but I feel that Avinyl needs to explain his logic to the town. Again, be careful not to accidentally lynch Avinyl here.

Unvote: Vryklan

and

Vote: Avinyl

[John]

I'm posting to show im not lurking, but have no information at this time to contribute. Everyone is bringing up logical points, and I am unable to tell who I should trust. I'll try to come up with something by tonite.

[Occult]

My accusation of Occult, however, which he has not addressed, is that of going with the flow on all his voting/fos's, and not independently targeting anyone.

I independently brought up the fact that Avi hadn't posted in the same amount of time as Vry. I also brought up the fact you conviently disapeared when Vry showed up after his log in problems. Soon after you reappear and are now attacking me it seems. As I said your accusations seem like nothing more then a lengthy OMGUS.

Also your first analysis went from me at 3rd least scummy to being the top four on your radar, I had only one post saying that I disliked Avi post. What's with the sudden change of position?

[Guardian]

I'm too tired to do a full PBPA at this time but in terms of your post:

I independently brought up the fact that Avi hadn't posted in the same amount of time as Vry.

You did point this out, I hardly noticed it with no FOS or vote. However, it did go almost unnoticed and you did not reinforce it. Then you did bandwagon on Avi at post 186, FOSing only after three other people voted him.

I also brought up the fact you conveniently disappeared when Vry showed up after his log in problems. Soon after you reappear and are now attacking me it seems.

Again you did bring this up much earlier, but then only band wagoned on me after Raffles and Vryklan were already doing it...


In post 146 you band wagoned on Vry with an FOS, but did not vote because you supposedly were afraid of him getting lynched.

As I said your accusations seem like nothing more then a lengthy OMGUS.

On the contrary, it has been hard for me to get a read on you, but though you have pointed to two occasions where you said something somewhat meaningful, you have posted just enough to appear that you are not lurking, and have not to my knowledge gotten any votes rolling, only gotten on trains to pressure players who already had a few votes on them. Your combination of a few insightful posts combined with seemingly thoughtless band wagoning to throw distraction on as many people as possible is very hard to read.

Also your first analysis went from me at 3rd least scummy to being the top four on your radar, I had only one post saying that I disliked Avi post. What's with the sudden change of position?

In my post I had you fourth to last because I really had not been able to get a read on you all game. You went from fourth to last to top for because your trend of hopping on trains is really making me suspicious... and slightly less suspicious of Vry, but you are coming off as an experienced player and I think maybe you've just been distancing. Stop making contradictory actions that are difficult to interpret, or please explain them satisfactorily!

also, Vry, avinyl, I would still like explanations for your weird logic and vote switching, respectively.

[Avinyl]

1. Guardian, I believe that was the third vote on me, so I am at lynch -4, not lynch -3.

2. I do not know what you mean by my "weird logic".

3. My vote History:
Random vote
Vote Ichigo for Lurking
Vote John because i think that he is the most suspicious one.
I would not call that vote switching, at least not more than normal.

[gorckat]

@Avi: Why is John the most suspicious? Earlier on, you said you didn't know what to think of him and since then, you haven't given any reasons.

[Occult]

Guardian I have a question now, you posted at least once (Ussualy more) in a day every day until Vry reshowed up, you then stopped posting for three days. When you were called on it you immediatly posted an explanation and are now back to posting at least once a day...

You took Vry's reappearence to lurk it seems. What's your explanation of that? because I find it suspicious.

[Guardian]

1. Guardian, I believe that was the third vote on me, so I am at lynch -4, not lynch -3.

2. I do not know what you mean by my "weird logic".

3. My vote History:
Random vote
Vote Ichigo for Lurking
Vote John because i think that he is the most suspicious one.
I would not call that vote switching, at least not more than normal.

1) Yeah I forgot gorckat took his off. So Avinyl is lynch -4 not -3. Good catch, it was a nice way to (at least appear) to be not scummy...

2)That was in reference to Vryklan, not you, sorry for any confusion.

3)It was just the speed that you switched that was really suspicious. Why vote Ichigo then change so quickly? I mean he did come back, but why vote for him in the first place if you are willing to change so quickly?

Guardian I have a question now, you posted at least once (Ussualy more) in a day every day until Vry reshowed up, you then stopped posting for three days. When you were called on it you immediatly posted an explanation and are now back to posting at least once a day...

You took Vry's reappearence to lurk it seems. What's your explanation of that? because I find it suspicious.

Firstly, please do explain your voting band wagoning if you believe it was in fact justified, or say that you were wrong and it was scummy, or whatever.

In direct response to this question of whether I took the chance to lurk, I'll quote myself from post 170, where I responded to a similar question by you:

Guardian is the most suspicious to me for all the reasons mentioned above by Vel but also if you look at his posts he posted dilengently at least once a day (Ussually more) until about the time Vry reappeared. he hasn't posted three days since. This could show he took the Vry distraction to lurk for a bit.

Nah, I just got busy and disinterested with the game, and realized that it makes no sense to post much more than the least posting person, as they determine the pace of the game. We can't really take a good stand on anyone, for example, until Ichigo posts, because whatever we believe about anyone else, we won't have enough information about Ichigo to see if he is really a better scum candidate. Summary: I'm simply not going to post as often as I was, because there is no point... PS: Occult, What post did Vel say good reasons about me being suspicious, so I can address them?

I see good reasons for voting Avi, but even if Vryklan's reasons for being inactive are valid, I still am most suspicious of him. His most recent post about how 11 is a great random number to pick when rolling d12 does nothing to hack away at gorckat and my theory, and he goes on to say that his statement was invalid, but that there may be psychological reasons behind it. Raffles and Vryklan are still suspicious to me, maybe Raffles moreso than Vryklan...

Right now Avi(until he posts), Ichigo, Raffles, Vryklan, and slightly Occult(just OMGUS reasons for Occult) are most suspicious to me.

Forum mafia is quite frustrating -.-.

I keep posting because I check the thread and there are interesting bits I feel like responding too, but posting so much feels like a waste :\. Hopefully it is not. BTW: Next week is hell week for me (literally) so I will probably not be able to post much if at all. Watch me post 3x a day lol... Anyways, back to Occult...

Let me preemptively say that at that time my suspicion of you was just OMGUS, but I am definitely not following an OMGUS line of reasoning now, I re skimmed and didn't like your voting at all. You keep bringing up the same points as points of suspicion against me, and honestly I see you as trying to divert attention from yourself and to whoever is convenient to lynch or interrogate. There is a question in that post you have still not addressed: where did Vel say good reasons about me being suspicions at any time? Did I miss that, or did you misspeak? And please, as I said earlier, at some point justify your voting record.

[Occult]

Firstly, please do explain your voting band wagoning if you believe it was in fact justified, or say that you were wrong and it was scummy, or whatever.

And please, as I said earlier, at some point justify your voting record.

I have one random vote and

Have not

voted since then, you need to reread the posts, I'm the one that's taking a stance against speed lynching (Yes, I believe that under 10 pages is a speed lynch).

[mustafa15]

Because this was in the evening, i was tired, and i hadn't time to read. I also feel that it is better to random vote someone than to not vote at all.
However,

Slight Finger of Suspicion: Guardian

for appearing so town-like.

I don't like this post, with the too townie and the random vote after discussion had started. Then, in post 171, he talks about a couple of people lurking and votes Ichigo for lurking, in his 3rd post with any content at all whatsoever, the darned hippocrit . Plus he talks in indigo, which is slightly annoying, and pushes me over the edge into

vote:Avinyl

.

Note: I know I'm putting him at lynch -3, but I don't really see that as being to big of a deal. It does make some caution neccessary, I suppose.

[Peter Venkman]

At this point in the game it isn't in the interest of Town players to try and lead. Everyone (except scum) is at a serious disadvantage, and for the most part, votes are going to be random. If we do hit Scum, it will be pretty lucky.

Right now, it is in the interest of scum to look very, very pro-town. They have the luxury of knowing who is scum and who is town, thus, they can make lengthy posts that lead the town in the directon they want. During the course of discussion other scum can slowly hop on and give momentum to the vote. When the mislynch comes along scum just go "awww geeze, it is tough to find scum! oops!"

I'm skeptical of anyone who pretends to beleive in his convictions at this point. Guardian, you shouldn't know anything more than the rest of us do. What makes you so certain in your convictions? Why are you trying to steer the town?

I'm also incredibly interested in why other players are defending other players. We don't know ANYTHING about ANYONE. Mustafa15, your post looks more like a defense of Guardian rather than a vote on Avinyl.

Vote: Guardian

FoS Mustafa15.

FoS on the rest of you voting Avinyl. He's -3 to lynch now: if scum aren't allready voting on him, they can finish the job with a few "well, that makes sense!" votes.

-Peter

[mustafa15]

Right now, it is in the interest of scum to look very, very pro-town.

Is it ever not in the interest of scum not to look very, very pro-town? How about townies? It's always in their interest to look very, very pro-town also. In my opinion, the too townie argument is stupid. Everyone is trying to be as townie as they can be, whether they are scum or town. How would scum be able to act more town than a townsperson could? I'm not trying to defend Guardian, I'm just saying that Avinyl's points weren't good.

[Peter Venkman]

Wow, way to defend yourself in the meaneast way possible. I didn't even vote on you.

Your vote seems to follow Guardian's. I wasn't planning on pointing this out, as I hoped other town players would see this. This combined with your complete lack of reason for defending him doesn't look good to me.

I assume town players are smart enough to catch scum tells, therefor I try not to announce them when I spot them. I don't think it is a good idea to try and push other town players in any direction. I vote, I state my reasoning, than I let the people who are actually trying to out scum think about it.

Townies don't need to look pro-town. They state their logic, make votes, and often die. See, a town player dying

can

actually help the town team. A scum player dying rarely helps the scum team.

-Peter

[mustafa15]

Sorry I'm grumpy. I just got off spring break, so I'm low on sleep and I have homework again.

[Peter Venkman]

I didn't take it personally. Just a game. Your response has been noted though.

Since I'm not doing much, I'll take a moment to address this point:

Is it ever not in the interest of scum not to look very, very pro-town?

For scum, this is the essence of the game. How do you appear town when you have opposite goals? You have to put on your "town" face, and this is harder than you might think.

Good vanilla town players don't care if they get lynched. They speak the truth and do their best to logically out scum. This is the difference.

Guardian appears to be very interested in staying alive. He even said so himself. If you choose to make the "he's a newbie" excuse you are engaging in WIFOM. Is he really a newbie? I'm especially suspicious of his response was essentially "I don't care, I just want to stay alive." That isn't a pro-town attitude. Remember, this just came after I pointed out to him that Town players shouldn't be obsessed with living.

Also, the wikipedia entry should have some sort of "do not use this as the bible" caveat. If the wikipedia entry says "scum does x and doesn't do y" I assure you that scum will do y and not do x.

..and since I've gone and made such a big deal out it I expect everyone to now come along and say "Oh man, I don't care if I die! I'm town!" See why I try not to point out scum tells and just vote?

-Peter

[mustafa15]

Oh man, I don't care if I die! I'm town!

[Peter Venkman]

<rolleyes>

[Avinyl]

Because this was in the evening, i was tired, and i hadn't time to read. I also feel that it is better to random vote someone than to not vote at all.
However,

Slight Finger of Suspicion: Guardian

for appearing so town-like.

I don't like this post, with the too townie and the random vote after discussion had started. Then, in post 171, he talks about a couple of people lurking and votes Ichigo for lurking, in his 3rd post with any content at all whatsoever, the darned hippocrit . Plus he talks in indigo, which is slightly annoying, and pushes me over the edge into

vote:Avinyl

.

Note: I know I'm putting him at lynch -3, but I don't really see that as being to big of a deal. It does make some caution neccessary, I suppose.

1. The discussion had started, but it wasn't very long and i felt that it is better to vote than not to.

2. I was not sure about who to vote, and so I voted Ichigo to at least give him some incentive to come back. When he came back, I had made up my mind, and voted John.

3. It is spelled

hypocrite

, not hippocrit.

4. Do you really mean that you are voting me because i posts in indigo?[/indigo]

[Guardian]

Peter, your posts seem to be obsessed with reasoning that it is OK for a pro-town player to die... You have brought this up at least twice now and... shouldn't we focus on catching scum instead of being happy with lynching a town??? I'm not going to post that I don't care if I am lynched if I'm town, because I do, a) I like playing but more importantly b) if I am lynched then a scum was not lynched, and lynching scum is the point of the game...

You also talked about this whole no power role thing, but who is to say there are no vigilantes, or jail keepers, or whatnot? As for having conviction, I feel Occult's actions were suspect, and I feel I should point that out, especially when he tries to just deflect back all my reasoning as celebrated OMGUS post.

Notice how Occult has FOS'd Avinyl (post 186) - the one point of reasoning I agree with Peter on is that scum could now jump on Avinyl and lynch... This is why Occult's FOS band wagoning is so fishy to me. Avinyl has at least tried to quickly explain his vote switching, and while I would still like to hear more from him,

Unvote: Avinyl Vote: Occult

. Avinyl is fishy but I agree -3 leads to -2 and -1 way too easily, the scum or a silly town hammers and .

If no one drives the discussion, where does the game go? Bah, this is why I said earlier I wouldn't post as much, I just compulsively check forums and like winning games :\.

Peter, are you sure not to point out scum tells? I asked this as a question, and got two responses (posts 197 and 198) that I should point out any scum tells I see. I am just trying to play the game correctly and lynch people I see as potential scum...

Also, what do you mean by that you post votes and the reasoning behind them, and then NOT point out scum tells, this makes no sense (to me).

I agree mustafa seems fishy for his votes on Avinyl, but we aren't scumbuddies so I know that at worst (if mustafa is scum) he is doing what Peter said and making an "oh that makes sense vote".

Also,

FomS: Peter

for saying that we should not defend other players, and then defending (directly) Avinyl and (indirectly by attacking me and saying I am scummy by taking the lead) Occult. Seriously, you FOS'd

everyone voting on Avinyl

... How is that

not

defending him??? Second apparent contradiction in your post... Afraid your buddy might get lynched?

[DLMF]

Goddamn, Guardian is on a roll.

Peter V has a fair point though.

more to chew on.