NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)

[Aegor]

My preview post addition got a little lost there, so;

@Aegor - what's your take on Rainbow?

Post 1951. Why does no one ever seem to read my cases (except Thesp)? Not only in this game, for that matter.

[emogirl123]

Look, I think you're town, but the above post basically shows you're flailing around and making stuff up on the fly. I have to admit that does exceedingly little to make me wish to sheep you t this stage.

Why are you trying to undermine my reads? I called you scum because of your vote on Aegor.

[emeraldemon]

@Thor

And if we still haven't caught any scum and we mislynch tomorrow, if there are six, which seems highly likely for a big game, the games over.

Zdenek thought there was no way scum would claim to guess six scum in this game. It's worth noting that HighShroomish actually argues against this being a towntell (1664, 1668).

Also note the case against ABR in 1727.

[Thor665]

That's not the only thing. There is a reason why Chevre was placed at L-1 on Day 1 which was lost.

What was that reason, I haven't read Day 1.

[emogirl123]

I haven't read Day 1.

You should.

[emogirl123]

And now I see inklings of that with Maenara; she's trying to policy lynch you, but you are weirdly defending her and it makes no sense.

This point doesn't really make sense to me.

I was defending Maenara because I felt that lynching her was a lazy vote and I wanted attention to be directed at Bulbazak/Garmr. I don't see why he would scum read me for this first, only to flip-flop now saying that it is very town of me to ignore kabooooom. I was at L-3 at the time, and now I am at L-1. I just don't see where the scum read came from. This makes me suspect that he was trying to have me wagoned off disguising it as a lynch for information when most of the people at the time on my wagon gave no case.

This is still a valid point that no one addressed.

[Thor665]

I haven't read Day 1.

You should.

I won't.

So tell me the case that I won't read otherwise.

[Thor665]

Heck, I'll accept a link too. I'm adaptable.

I may even be willing to do the legwork if you tell me which player made a good presentation of the case - though I may get snarky(er) over it.

[Thesp]

I almost forgot:

VOTE: kabooooom

I'm happy voting for inHimshallibe as well, and would seriously ponder a RainbowDash vote. Other wagons will get consideration as the day goes on. I will not be a lone Cassandra, insisting I'm right with my single vote in the middle of nowhere near a deadline.

I don't really disagree with any of your scumspects (though I'm wavering on InHim I'll admit, his shift to Albert felt really organic.

That said, you're voting a counterwagon to scum yesterday.
You're voting..the counterwagon...to scum.
Talk to me Thesp, what's going on here?

I pondered that as well. I don't think it's out of the question that both wagons were on scum. In a game like this where we've almost certainly got fewer scum around (the total number bandied about has been 3, which seems reasonable to me), and there's not a lot of scum that can push a "counter-wagon" to try to divert a scum lynch. Heck, ABR and kabooooom vote for each other, and here is the most they say about each other all Day 3:

ABR and kabooooom Day 3 commentary on each other, unabridged

Vote: kabooooom

^Why kab is a better lynch than ABR, although both are acceptable.

and how is that post the reason i m a better lynch then ABR?

vote:ABR

Neither are super-eager to push any sort of pressure on the other. If they are both scum (which seems reasonably possible), they either both have to push another case (possibly even together?) to create a viable "counter-wagon". With only probably one other scumbuddy out there (who probably really wants to keep their hands clean of all of it), that doesn't give them a lot of chance of diverting the wagons. Can you imagine the storm that would pop up if the two leading wagonees both voted for someone else,

especially

if at least one of those wagonees turns out to be scum?

I think there's a reasonable chance that the majority of players (most of whom are town) were right about both wagons yesterday. If this weren't an all-vanilla setup, I might be less sure of that.

What was the townslip though? I forgot about that, and if it's good then I can just lob Shroom back into my town pile and lynch Bulba or Rainbow, which would be sexy.

emeraldemon beats me to this somewhat, but since I already typed it up, here it is as quoted in HighShroomish's own posts:

Spoiler: HighShroomish's Infamous Town Tell

Oh, I forgot to mention it before. Shroomish towntold big in that post. Scum will have to NK him.

I didn't see a towntell. I saw a contradictory stance and opportunistic behavior.

Getting the number of scum oh so very wrong.

How the fuck is that a town-tell. Why does scum "need to NK me unless I'm actually about to screw them over.

Because scum know the number of scum. I think if you were faking it, you would have gone with a smaller number than 6.
Because you will never be lynched.

Why would I have gone with a smaller number if I was faking it. I could have said seven, and have a chance to make everyone scramble around to try to lynch scum.

---

I want Thesp to get through his catch-up. I don't find a kabooooom vote highly inspiring (or suspecting me, for that matter ).

I was through with my catchup when I posted my suspicions. Sorry!


Re-reading Bulbazak, I don't know what to think of him, especially since I think his reads have been drastically wrong the entire game. Still happy with my vote on kabooooom. Willing to be flexible with my vote on a couple of my reads as the deadline approaches.

[kabooooom]

"Neither are super-eager to push any sort of pressure on the other." cos i didn't care. :/

[kabooooom]

"Neither are super-eager to push any sort of pressure on the other." cos i didn't care much. :/

[Thor665]

@Thesp - I see a great case there for how useless Kaboom is as a player.

He was still the counterwagon to scum though.

Vote: Rainbowdash

Want to sheep me here?

[Thesp]

@Thesp - I see a great case there for how useless Kaboom is as a player.

He was still the counterwagon to scum though.

Vote: Rainbowdash

Want to sheep me here?

Pondering it. Give me a day.

[Thor665]

It is now past the hour, meaning that somewhere the date has become tomorrow.
Sheep?

[Rainbowdash]

Still a very good chance Thor is scum here. It reminds me a lot of last game I played, one player most of the game had as "oh they are really town", looking at the read it actually made no sense, everypony though I was being crazy locking onto them, but they were scum who had basically picked up a couple of town who just defended them full out.

This just feels the same for the most part. I am probably going to get mislynched before Thor gets lynched, but if kab is town don't let him get to the end. Just making it very clear. Almost everything just feels the same. If kab is town Thor doesn't make it to endgame.

To not just quote stripe things...

I actually had completely forgotten that Thor was really pushing on ABR. That's how weak of a push it was. I attributed the lynch to about half a dozen players before him easily.

Lets look at that interaction though:

He comes in and votes ABR only to back off it as a bluff, then seems to get really jokey with him and the wagon. So anyway, he votes the "Not ABR" wagon D2 and NS gets lynched. In fact there is a lot of defense of ABR day two.

I'm voting on the 'not ABR' wagon to see what happens

Because the ABR wagon felt bad - the NS one doesn't.

Then we actually get this:

Also, Fonz's wall against ABR is compelling.

Which I guess is good, but in the same post he votes Aegor. It reads like acknowledgement that there is a case against a partner that he can jump on later.

Anyway. He seems to call himself town because he brought the meta case or whatever against ABR. Completely made up.

His ABR meta case started D3. You don't suddenly over N2 realize "oh hey player X who I have been passively defending all of the previous day is playing to his scum meta I better vote him now". You especially do not realize this when you don't have ABR tied to the D2 lynch, or if its a general meta attack. You may talk to ABR and he says "you better bus now" or something like that, and latch onto meta as being the unique reason to do such. I have been scum with ABR and he said "If you are going to bus, bus hard".

Going from D2 defense to D3 scum on meta out the gate, that is bussing hard. Meta is not an immediate pickup unless there is a very exact tell that got hit. Meta is more of a feeling throughout the entire game that a player is doing something. This is far more likely to be a bus than it is Thor as town suddenly realized that he should vote ABR on meta. Timing is completely off and inconsistent to town coming to a meta conclusion but is consistent with scum deciding to bus. So no great town tell at all. I would say its more of a scumtell.

Then you know what happened. He voted Aegor. Then he tried to get the Aegor wagon to move to kab. Then shortly before deadline when it looked like ABR was likely the only way for a lynch to happen he returned.

And that's all without BS play.

I almost want to vote Thor over kab now...

Going back to kab though, I had a scum game with ABR recently... and his ability to interact with partners is almost one of "I should be the only scum member" or something like that. He hard bussed a weaker player to start, way past a point where ignoring them would have been the best point. Its harder to read meta from gathering meta from a scum perspective, but it feels really similar here. He just tunnels in and ignores the rest of the game because they are a liability to him.

[Thor665]

I feel good about my vote.

[HighShroomish]

Oh, RBD, I have something to add to that. Just give me a minute.

[HighShroomish]

Also- Thor, you didn't "start" the Aegor wagon. You voted him and so did Bulba, then poof, no votes on Aegor. Then, once the Aegor wagon seems like it could actually have potential- "HEY GUYZ REMEMBER I STARTED THIS!!! YEAH!! MAKE SURE YOU REMEMBER THIS WAS BECAUSE OF ME!!!"

Okay, well, first off - if I didn't start it, who did?
Second off - the only way that play makes sense if you're right is if Aegor is scum, would you like to vote Aegor?

This is really really bad. Extremely bad. You and Bulba were on together once when you were the first vote. Then for a while no one had a vote on Aegor. Everytime Aegor had 2 votes on him, you jumped on. And you make sure people remember you started it. Yes, I'm also calling Aegor scum. If Thor is scum, I don't see how Aegor cannot be scum. At all. And I really like Thor as scum especially from RBD's post.
And for good measure

VOTE: THOR

[Thor665]

RBD's post makes very little sense - she's accusing me of bussing and then hard defending ABR all day 2, then bussing him for part of Day 3, then partway through the bus soft defending him. The obviously more logical interpretation is "Thor was scumhunting, and grew into a suspicion of ABR"

As far as Aegor goes, your case on me relies on Aegor being scum and you want to lynch him first. This case also makes very little sense and further ignores the evidence shown about how Aegor doesn't make sense with ABR scum (and, while we're at it, is another case of Thor random bussing and then random hard defending...which, doesn't even begin to make sense if I'm scum with either Aegor or ABR.



What about her and your case makes sense to you?
Please walk me through what I, as scum, was thinking in the things I did, and how I thought it would help me win?
If you answer is "dramatically distance from buddies and act super strange so you don't look scummy" I have a hint for you - that's called a town tell.

[Rainbowdash]

If it question wasn't implied enough:

You never mentioned a meta of ABR D2 except that it was hard to meta him. After a mislynch that seems to have had no real connection to ABR, you lay into him out of nowhere as him playing to his scum meta. Where did this change of pace come from, and why was it not mentioned before that point?

Here is you D3 scum logic if you want me to give it to you:

-I need to bus ABR today
-This bus is not going through. Wagon is stalling and kab/Aegor are getting votes.
-I will vote Aegor who I have been calling scum
-If I get Bulb to jump to kab maybe I can use that to call him scum later

Also I guess aside in that case...

If you saw ABR as scum, even if the wagon on him stalled out, why did you try and get the Aegor wagon to move to kab instead of just returning to the ABR wagon?

Im seriously mulling over just saying Thor is scum here and kab is town who is just generally lurky/useless. Always feels odd when you are convincing yourself you are wrong like this.

[Thor665]

You never mentioned a meta of ABR D2 except that it was hard to meta him. After a mislynch that seems to have had no real connection to ABR, you lay into him out of nowhere as him playing to his scum meta. Where did this change of pace come from, and why was it not mentioned before that point?

You are aware that my meta tell on him was based off the lack of him doing things. I'll go ahead and go out on a crazy limb that "in order to assess lack of things Thor needed to see enough play to realize things were lacking" as just a crazy off the top of my head wild and insane theory that explains every issue you just presented.

So, I bussed ABR when I showed up, decided to defend him for the rest of the day, then went into night and entered into the next day and was like, nah, that bussing thing was the way to go, i gotta stop defending him, so I started to bus him again, and then decided, hey, looks like people don't want my bus, I better dismantle it. I challenge you to ever find me, as scum, doing anything remotely of the sort, anywhere, ever. If you can I'll call you town and self vote. But you can't. because it's not how I play scum - therefore I'm obviously town right now.

Oh, and you noticed that Kaboom is more likely useless town than scum after being the counter wagon to ABR.
Good work.

[Thor665]

You never mentioned a meta of ABR D2 except that it was hard to meta him.

Also, i rather doubt I said this.
I am pretty sure I said a lot of the things people were calling scummy were things he did as town, but that doesn't mean his meta is hard - just that I thought people didn't know his meta. That's actually you showing me admitting an awareness and understanding of his meta.

Compare and contrast with me in any game with, say, DGB, where I openly claim that I have no idea how to read her and advocate lynching her whenever. If I think someone is impossible to read, then I usually just try to make them dead to spare me the headache.

[Thor665]

A bunch of reasons. I remember he made a bad vote on my wagon making me want to lynch either Chevre/ABR, he made a pretty bad push on Slandaar while pushing emeraldemon and then ended up going on another bad wagon. The right side of my face has swollen to the size of a golf ball and I have a hint if fever.

Post from dream land.

How many games have you ever played with ABR? I'm not sure 'illogical and bad play' is really a valid scumtell on him, and though I think this says something about his playstyle that he may wish to change I'm not sure it's a solid reason to lynch him barring something else.

Hey, look, this is totes Thor saying he doesn't understand ABR's meta!

...oh, no, wait, it's Thor claimign understanding of it.

[Thor665]

Oh cry me a river, Al, you practically try to hand scum a mislynch every time you're town and then whine that it is other town player's faults for lynching you ignoring that multiple town across multiple games find you scummy (hint: they're not *all* bad players )

Thor tells ABR his awarness of ABR's meta.

Sadly, it is well within ABR's meta to...well, flat out lie to make a case when he is town.

I will agree this means I always want a Vig in games with him in it, but it is an awkward 'scumtell' to apply to him because his town play is exactly that brutally anti-town.

Thor again describes awareness of ABR's meta.

I feel people aren't talking with each other, they're talking at each other.

ABR is playing akin to his soft and namby scum game as opposed to his vitriolically anti-town town game.

@Zdenek
@Matias
@Nero
@Emeralddaemon

Please discuss my above bolded comment with me.

Thor makes a meta case on ABR - it is super shocking since Thor doesn't claim to understand ABR's meta.

[Thor665]

Also, Thor was voting ABR at the end of Day 2, almost as though he was figuring out ABR was scum.
This is such a weird and obvious buss/distance action from Thor. It's textbook really, and he had to lie about meta to make his case too.