Mini 388: DOOMsville II {Game Over!}

[Adele]

i have to present my case?
so far the only person to have doubted my role as far as i can tell is adele. she seems to beleive that there is no doc in the game which must be the conclueson from her wanting norinel to have me vote second?
but if she thinks i am not the doc, then why isn't she pushing to lynch me straight away? to me that don't make any sense.

I think you have a higher chance of being the SK than I do.

adele, i am in the same situation as you, having to trust one of you or norinel, so i don't think you can complain too much about being in that situaion.

Wrong. Neither of us is in that situation. If I lynch Norinel, you will win, no matter what. If you lynch Norinel, I will win, no matter what. If Norinel is SK, then we will

both

win in both cases, but to be as sure as possible of a town win, I have to prefer you as the hammerer to myself.

i think i have talked myself into doing it. i can't see a good enough reason that adele hasn't voted for norinel if adele is town.

Can't see, or have decided is prudent to stubbornly ignore?

You're rejecting the plan that Norinel and I seem to be in agreement of. If you're saying that there's no way you'll lynch Norinel, then you're pretty much forcing me to pick it between the two of you - and Norinel hasn't behaved in this absurd, desperate manner.

Vote: geraintm

/crosses fingers

ps. I'm going to be online for at least the next hour, then again in the evening. I'm convinced the vote you've placed on me is an omgus for my wanting to consider all the angles rather than give you a free card. If you'll unvote and agree to actually engage the

issues

, I'll do the same. I don't want to gamble any more here than I have to; if Norinel's the SK then we're handing him the win, but I can't let you bully me into killing myself in the hopes that you're pro-town, geraintm.

Please respond as soon as humanly possible.

[Adele]

I'm off out now. I'm going to grudgingly

unvote

, but insist that you not try to pull off some kind of fait accompli to make me fall into plave, geraintm. Like I said, I'm not going to be bullied into a bad play.

[Adele]

It's been more than 48 hours. Apparently the course of action that geraintm decided on was to put me at lynch-1 and bugger off. At this point I'm forced to assume that you're deliberately avoiding talking sense with me, geraintm, and that you are in fact the SK. I can't imagine you either taking such a risky play when you knew you'd be away from the sit efor a while, or you stopping by but choosing not to engage, otherwise.

Here we go again.

Vote: geraintm

[geraintm]

but what do you expect me to do adele? i voted for norinel because i thought he was the SK mostly based upon the roleclaims, but you just didn't want to vote for him and the only reason i could think of was that you were the SK and feared norninel#s role claim. his role claim was either false and he was the SK and it didn't matter who voted second, or it was true which made yours false and you the SK and thus you couldn't vote for norinel because you would end up dead to norinel's parting shot. to me, your not voting for norinel gave me too many questions...
i don't know how you want this game to end? who do you actually think is the bad guy?
and where is norinel?

[Adele]

No, his roleclaim was either false - and therefore Norinel's the SK - or it is true - and YOU are the SK.

Can you wrap your head around the idea that these are the two options

I

can see? And that if you are the SK (which is definately a possiblity, and your trenchant attitude in this matter makes it more probable by the day), then my hammering Norinel would lose the game for town?

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

It's time for the third Vote Count of DOOM

1 - Adele (geraintm)
1 - geraintm (Adele)

Not Voting: Norinel

Remember with 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch!

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

No posts in the last 24 hours? People needs to see this at the top of the Little Italy section

[Norinel]

I'm not going to swoop in and vote for either of you right now. Real post from me today, I sincerely hope.

[geraintm]

I'm not going to swoop in and vote for either of you right now. Real post from me today, I sincerely hope.

if you didn't hammer eitehr one of us as soon as you came in the room, then i am very hopeful you are not the serial killer. i do hope you are not as distrusting as Adele over my claim, and if you beleive me then your vote must got to adele

[Adele]

I'm sorry you got put in this position. I don't know if the SK is you or geraintm - although from this I'm now guessing it

is

geraintm - but obviously I'm not going to expect you to just take my word on the matter (and act like you must be evil if you don't think that's smart play *glares*).

I'm really busy today, but in about 13 hours I'll post and try to say why, given that you have to make a pick between lynching geraintm or me, it's better to pick geraintm.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

It's time for the fourth Vote Count of DOOM

1 - Adele (geraintm)
1 - geraintm (Adele)

Not Voting: Norinel

Remember with 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch!

[Adele]

Okay, here we go. Geraintm's only positive is that he's claimed doc and not been counterclaimed - that's

it

. And it worked for a pretty long time. But this morning, when it became evident to both of us that the best odds for a town win laid with the less trustworthy of geraintm and I lynching you (after SL died shortly after putting this very point forward), geraintm suddenly switched to refusing to pay any attention to logic - if I consider it even marginally more likely that you're the SK than he is, then I should want you dead and therefore hammer you, appears to be his argument.

Entreaties to pay attention to the situation from my point of view, and observe that this is the only smart play for me, fell on dead ears. Instead he forced us into this face-off by voting for me (just a few short posts after you and I agree that it makes most sense for you to decide who's less trustworthy and that person should be required to hammer you) - why? It doesn't make sense for a townie to take such an extreme course of action over talking things through. He's running scared, because he

knows

that him hammering you would lose him the game - and he could only know that if

he's

the SK.

It's a desperate act, and one that's forced me into the equivalent action. Note that whichever of geraintm or I is scummier and should die today, it's still better for the town if that person hammers you and dies by the bombness if you're telling the truth. So why won't he go with that?
Answer: I've traditionally been under more suspicion. If he can get you to act quickly and without thinking things through sensibly, then I'll probably be the victim.

I hope you understand what I mean; I'll try to post tonight, making more sense

[Norinel]

That certainly seems reasonable. On the other hand, it could very well be possible that it's easier to wrap your head around strange deliberately lynching me plans

if you know my claim is true

.

By the way, where have all the nightkills gone? The only ways I can see that working out is if the scum can't nightkill for some reason, the scum didn't nightkill most nights for some reason (To give someone a doc claim, maybe), or if geraint got lucky and hit successfully both times the scum got a chance. (Hopefully they were gone by Night 4, and recruited Night 1 instead of killing)

Let's suppose Mert/Turbo/autoload were the nightkilling scum, and geraint got some successful protects. We already know that they didn't nightkill N1, since they were recruting Ozy. But they went for the claimed cop Night 2, perhaps because nobody objected to MBL's not-quite-claim of doc. Night 3, they would've had to attack me, which is really unusual since I at that time made a lot of sense as a potential lynch target. Maybe MBL went so hard on me yesterday because he thought I was NK-immune?

Geraint's reactions to the Day 2 MBL/kilme exchange were more confused than anything else, which I could read as either sincerely not understanding because he hadn't decided on a doc claim or maybe newbieness.

[Adele]

Geraint's reactions to the Day 2 MBL/kilme exchange were more confused than anything else, which I could read as either sincerely not understanding because he hadn't decided on a doc claim or maybe newbieness.

Newbieness? He's been here a year and has 400 in-game posts...

Night 3, they would've had to attack me

That's what first tweaked me, made me want to think again. You didn't make much sense as a kill target

or

a protect target, frankly. Ger put off naming targets as long as possible and then said you; in the context, it seemed a deliberate choice to push doubt onto me.

it could very well be possible that it's easier to wrap your head around strange deliberately lynching me plans

if you know my claim is true.

It's not a complicated scenario as endgames go. I can't believe it's so far beyond him when it's such a no-nrainer for both you and I (and SL too). He's been playing a year, and he can't imagine things from other peoples' perspectives, or play out different hypotheticals? That just seems the most improbable thing to me here.

But then, I'm posting from the position of now being certain he's the SK, because otherwise you'd've won by now...

[geraintm]

Let's suppose Mert/Turbo/autoload were the nightkilling scum, and geraint got some successful protects. We already know that they didn't nightkill N1, since they were recruting Ozy. But they went for the claimed cop Night 2, perhaps because nobody objected to MBL's not-quite-claim of doc. Night 3, they would've had to attack me, which is really unusual since I at that time made a lot of sense as a potential lynch target. Maybe MBL went so hard on me yesterday because he thought I was NK-immune?

Geraint's reactions to the Day 2 MBL/kilme exchange were more confused than anything else, which I could read as either sincerely not understanding because he hadn't decided on a doc claim or maybe newbieness.

why did it confuse you? the reason i latched onto kilm/MBl when i found out where Kilm said MBL had been was because i knew where i had protected, and finding out he hadn't died and someone had protected him made me very suspiscious.
the reason i was so happy to lynch ozy day one was because i was going to protect him if he came up as unlynchable.

I don't know about this mass claim stuff. I can see the

potential

to break the game open but that's only if things fall the right way, and it has the downisde of exposing the doc with a claimed cop already out there. Is it really worth leaving things to luck?
Also ShadowLurker I didn't understand your ordering post at all, it looked like there were three sepearate lists

at the moment,i think i am siding with Turbo in his thinking...

right up till the point where he voted for klebian, i have no idea where that came from. i feel like i am in the dark with this game compared to everyone else

Norinel, you said i hadn't thought about a doc claim. the above post of mine was the post where i early on hinted at my role, because i tried to say the reason i didn't want that mass role claim was because of turbo's thinking about it exposing the doc. i know this might seem very obscure way to do it, but i've not been a doc before in a game and things like breadcrumbing a role never really occurs to me.

adele, all your comments in post 986 are very, very hypocritical. you say that i have changed my thinking, but my reason to vote for you are exactly what you are claiming for me! you can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say it is unrasnable for me to assume you are the serial killer because you wouldn't vote for norinel, then say i am the serial killer because i wouldn't vote for norinel. misses the point that i had vote for norinel! and i was waiting for you to finish him off! the reason i think you are teh SK is because you wouldn't put teh second vote on norinel and you feared norinle's role.

Entreaties to pay attention to the situation from my point of view, and observe that this is the only smart play for me, fell on dead ears. Instead he forced us into this face-off by voting for me (just a few short posts after you and I agree that it makes most sense for you to decide who's less trustworthy and that person should be required to hammer you) - why? It doesn't make sense for a townie to take such an extreme course of action over talking things through. He's running scared, because he

knows

that him hammering you would lose him the game - and he could only know that if

he's

the SK.

the paart above where you say "him hammering you would love you the same" never applied to this game, as i voted for norinel first. i never had to fear losing the game because of norinel's role.

And norinel, go back and check the ordering of the votes during this last day to see that i never had to fear voting you, the only person who did was adele

[PS: sorry not posted much last few days, work is blocking mafiascum so can only do this from home. i am not running scared and hiding from the game]

[Adele]

Dude, if you reread, you will actually find that Norinel floated the idea of him picking between us, and if suspected you more, he and I would order you to unvote, wait for me to vote, and

then

hammer under threat of a straight lynch.

So, yes. You

did

have to worry about losing the game because of Norinel's role.

adele, all your comments in post 986 are very, very hypocritical.

No, they aren't.

you say that i have changed my thinking, but my reason to vote for you are exactly what you are claiming for me!

Hmm. You're voting for me because you refuse to consider letting Norinel choose between us. I'm voting for you because you refuse to consider letting Norinel choose between us. You're right, that's

exactly

the same reason - in both cases, your myopia. The upshot of which is, Norinel has to choose between us (am I the only one who finds that ironic?)

you can't say it is unrasnable for me to assume you are the serial killer because you wouldn't vote for norinel, then say i am the serial killer because i wouldn't vote for norinel.

I know I'm not the SK; therefore (from my perspective) there's a higher chance that you're the SK than there is that I am. Therefore I'd prefer you to potentially get hit by hammering Norinel if he's telling the truth than that I get hit.

misses the point that i had vote for norinel! and i was waiting for you to finish him off!

EXACTLY

. I would've considered hammering him if you'd done the same, but you refused to. From my perspective THERE IS A CHANCE you are the SK and Norinel's telling the truth, and by hammering Norinel, I'D BE KILLING HIM AND MYSELF AND LOSING THE GAME FOR TOWN!!!

There's no chance in HELL you still don't understand this. The reason I wouldn't blindly hammer Norinel is the same reason you're

claiming

as why you would never even consider it. There's one difference between my approach to today and yours - I've been willing to be reasonable, to potentially put myself at risk. You've insisted that the play results in you certainly surivivng the day - exactly the play I'd expect from an SK.

You've been scummy as heck. I've not been hypocritical at all, actually; it

was

you who rejected Norinel's plan and forced us into this face-off. I worked my tail off for days (we've only lynched one mafioso in this game - MBL - and I'd like to take responsibility for that particular victory, pushing him and enumerating his lies), while you've sat back as the "doc" and trusted we'd know better than to hurt

you

.

Well, here it is. Hammering Norinel would've given me a 2-in-3 chance (as I then perceived it) of lynching the SK and winning the game. It wasn't as good as it could be if you were hammering (since I'm town, that'd give a definate town win). So, here's my question:

Was it scummy of me to prefer the scenario where you, rather than I, hammer Norinel?

The fact that you manipulated the situation so that you were never in direct risk of having to do that? Irrelevant. (though I'd like to also point out that when SL asked me to unvote Norinel on that basis,

I

happily did so).

This is getting tiresome. ger and I will shout each other round in a circle. Perhaps it would be better if Norinel asked us what he considers to be the important questions.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

It's time for the fifth Vote Count of DOOM

1 - Adele (geraintm)
1 - geraintm (Adele)

Not Voting: Norinel

Remember with 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch!

[Norinel]

This is getting tiresome. ger and I will shout each other round in a circle. Perhaps it would be better if Norinel asked us what he considers to be the important questions.

Here are a few that come to mind:

Geraint, why do you think scum (MBL, by that point) attacked me Night 3, given that he used me as the main person to lynch?

Adele, if there's no doc or anyone with nightkill immunity except klebian or maybe the SK, why have there been no nightkills?

Both of you, if there's anything that you can point me to from the thread that shows you haven't been playing to survive, or the other one has, that'd expedite things as well.

[geraintm]

Geraint, why do you think scum (MBL, by that point) attacked me Night 3, given that he used me as the main person to lynch?

Adele, if there's no doc or anyone with nightkill immunity except klebian or maybe the SK, why have there been no nightkills?

Both of you, if there's anything that you can point me to from the thread that shows you haven't been playing to survive, or the other one has, that'd expedite things as well.

i am not sure why MBL attacked you. the reason i chose you to save that night was i had saved teh cop the night before and blocked the night kill. i was expecting the mafia to assume i would save him again, remember MBL had guessed i was the doc (he was the person who outed me, i didn't claim doc until after i assumed everyone knew i was the doc), so i thought saving the cop again was too obvious and chose one of the people on the Innocent list. it was 50/50 between you and adele i think.

And Norninel, do you think with mine and adele's role claims which is more believable. mine as doc, when there has been no nightkills in the game at all, or "back-up cop", which is always the easiest claim for a bad guy, being so hard to disprove.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I will be on another brief hiatus from this Thursday to Saturday. If lynch is reached during that time just wait til I come back.

[Norinel]

And Norninel, do you think with mine and adele's role claims which is more believable. mine as doc, when there has been no nightkills in the game at all, or "back-up cop", which is always the easiest claim for a bad guy, being so hard to disprove.

That's a point in your favor, yes, but as far as I can tell it's the biggest one. If the daygame factors were similar, than that might tip the scales in your favor, but so far Adele's doing better on that front.

[geraintm]

Norinel, what do you mean, the day game factors?

Norinel, to me the game has come down to the roleclaims from the different players. At the start of today, i felt your claim was the weakest out of you two, and that was why i voted you to begin with.
But we have a tracker, watcher, copycat...i don't think there would have been a back up cop, there were enough pro town info gathering roles in the game.
and for adele to vote for you, she must have beleived your role wasn't true. and thus your bomb ability didn't matter. the only thing that stopped her from voting for you today was her fear of the bomb ability.
she now has it turned round that because i had voted for you, that somehow makes me the serial killer. her entire reason for me being teh serial killer is not letting her vote for you first and me being not willing to talk about how best to kill you. she doesn't seem to be debating my role claim or anything liek that, she is focussing on a very small part of today that to me has an equally good alternate explanation, her being the serial killer.

Norinel, go back through today and look at our actions and think WWSKD. See if what me and adele have done makes sense?
go back to the first night with my lynching of an unlycnable. why would i have tried to kill someone when if i was the SK, i would have known i could have taken them out at any time with my SK ability?

Dunno now, what else do you want from me norinel?

[Patrick]

k, I remember we won this one

[Turbovolver]

Oh man, that sucks. Yeah, town won.

Adele was the daykiller.

Again, props to MBL for spinning so many lies and sticking around as long as he did. Slops to geraintm for blocking our kill on Norinel - if we hit him and were quick enough we could've won, I think.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

It is a shame we lost so many great endgame and postgames posts due to the downtime. I will repost everything later today.