Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Thok]

Battle Mage replaces Smashy. I've just sen him his role PM.

[Battle Mage]

btw-can i just clarify that the only scum killed so far is Pooky?
The OP doesnt explicitly state the affiliation of anyone else, so i just wanted to be sure...
Im still rereading. Thought post 371 was worthy of an

FOS

.
Could anyone help by giving me a quick rundown of the important events of the game?
BM

[Yosarian2]

There is no case against me.

If that was true, you wouldn't be on my LOE right now.

The case I had against you was this:

CTD/mnowax: had kind of flown under my radar, as mnowax always does look kind of scummy, but MOS has some good points about him. I don't the timing or the logic of his attack on MOS, and I don't like his general behavior today. Even more so, CTD dosn't look good either; he didn't say all that much himself, and what he did say looks quite suspicious. One of the few posts where CTD did commit to anything was this post:

I want neither Pooky nor Yos to be executed. Pooks posting a huge analysis resonates with my townie cord, because I've seen him make an effort when threatened to be lynched as town before. The analysis itself is more or less what I'd expect from a townie. I didn't register any malicious twisting of facts or other related shenanigans, and while I don't agree with all of it, that doesn't make me want to see him dead.

As for Yos, I just don't see a good enough case against him to warrant an execution.

I would fully support executing the following people at this point:
- StallingChamp. Although Zindaras disagrees, his contradiction

was

scummy to me, and he has proven himself to be utterly useless ever since. His predecessor ChannelDelibird wasn't as bad, but looking over his posts, I'm not too fond of him either.
- Twomz. Reasons stated before. Prominent member of the bird wagon, piggybacked onto Fritzler, used Burden of Proof, dropped off the face of the earth. The fact that his replacement is taking forever to drop by isn't exactly reassuring either.

If you want me to comment on anything else before the deadline hits, make it snappy.

Which, in retrospect, looks like a defense of Pooky, with a quick "Yos dosn't really look scummy either" comment thrown in to semi-disguise the defense of pooky.

Also, MOS laid out some interesting points against you, I would suggest responding to those posts as well.

[VitaminR]

Yos, you asked for the case against SV. What did you think of it and her response to it?

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you asked for the case against SV. What did you think of it and her response to it?

-

Well, you made some interesting points, and the way you made your case actually makes me a little less suspicious of you. But some of the points you made against her were for moves I tended to agree with at the time, (for example, I thought Phoebus's early "gut" votes WERE kind of scummy), and the rest were intersting but not especally strong, IMHO, so I still don't consider her to be in my top 3 suspects at the moment.

[VitaminR]

I do agree with that. Individually, the points aren't that convincing.

It's a pattern, though, and not a lot of what she's posted has fallen outside of it.

[Shanba]

ThAdmiral: Alright then, let's hear some opinions from you beyond the scope of posting about the LoE.

Geh. Is it normal for people not to post in over a week?
Zindaras- last post March 22
Lowell- Last post March 22
Fritzler- Last post March 23

It's somewhat frustrating now. Especially as Zindaras was going to be the next one I perssure.

[Toaster Strudel]

Yos, any timeline to the execution? Maybe that will motivate people. Including me to be perfectly honest.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not going to drag this out too much longer, don't want this game to start dragging again. As battlemage just replaced in for one of the people on my hit list, I'm going to give him a bit of time to read the thread and reply to the accusations against his predecessors and such. Beyond that, I might not wait that much longer unless there is some good coversation going on. If you have something to say, I'd suggest you say it soon.

[Fritzler]

ThAdmiral: Alright then, let's hear some opinions from you beyond the scope of posting about the LoE.

Geh. Is it normal for people not to post in over a week?
Zindaras- last post March 22
Lowell- Last post March 22
Fritzler- Last post March 23

It's somewhat frustrating now. Especially as Zindaras was going to be the next one I perssure.

totally normal

[RafK]

In this game? It's usual for people not to post in over a month and then get replaced

Regarding SV, I still think that the defence of Pookie and the barning onto king PJ on day 1 (which is suspect whether PJ is scum or town) are the key points of that case. Everything can be individually excused or mea culpa'd, but as was said above, it's a pattern, and SV hasn't done a lot that's NOT in some way suspicious.

To some extent I think this choice comes down to SV, MOS or Phoebus's replacement: it's time to poop or get off the throne in respect of those cases, they've all been lingering since day 1/early day 2, and people have committed to opinions on both of them. I'm less sure of getting any useful information out of an immediate smashy or mnowax lynch (or even an immediate CES lynch, since of course my suspicions go beyond Yos' LOE). I reckon a Yos execution wouldn't do too bad for information and chance of hitting scum either, there's a lot of commitment around Yos, but why do I think he's unlikely to go for that?

[petroleumjelly]

Shoot shoot shoot.

I know this is taking forever, but I

do

intend to do my reread and give more updated thoughts on players in the game. I

do not

want this day to pass by without first having given more opinions, in case I bite the bullet tonight.

In fact, I'll make sure I do a read on two people before going to bed tonight, but I don't think I'll be able to do one on everybody I want to as of yet. I've been rather caught up in other games, so this one always seems to be pushed into the wayside as of late.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, I'll do two people tonight on Yos2's list. I'll read up on Mastermind of Sin and VitaminR [rep. DragonsofSummer, rep. Phoebus], since they are the first two. I plan on (at the very least) also reading up on SpectrumVoid again, Smashy (now Battle Mage), mnowax, and Zindaras, but those will have to wait for when I have more time.

1.) Mastermind of Sin

He starts off the game by announcing he will not be voting. I still think that's a stupid strategy, but it's not necessarily scummy. Much of his early game interactions seem to be mostly within this realm, so not very much to comment on here...

There's a lot of posts which are clearly not in context and I cannot tell what many of them are referring to. I will probably have to read the entire game in one sitting in order to make better comments, but let's see...

Hmm, this catches my eye:

Also, anyone who is voting a lot of people but has no one voting them is suspect in my book. That means they're spreading suspicion around while laying low enough that no one is really watching them.

Does this hold true in all contexts? Because I remember that both myself and Pablito have been voting for 4-5 people at one time without having very many votes on either of us, and I don't recall you bringing this up. Or is this meant to be more of an early-game thing?

I still don't understand MoS's defense of Phoebus. I really am not sure what to think of it, either. I still wish I had executed Phoebus on D1, and I will definitely whap MoS over the head if MoS is town and Phoebus is scum (though I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before).

SV, you missed that I was willing to see Pooky die, just thought Yos deserved it a little more.

Currently, however, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Glork is a good execution for today.

Just noting this for my own sake. It could very well be that Yos2 is scum and MoS's 'dar was just very on at this point, but it still stood out to me.

Noted something which I may point out later after MoS answers questions in this post.

MoS starts his more detailed analysis in his Post 66. His analysis on CTD, Dead Rikimaru, Der Hammer, and Fritzler look pretty good (though I do find how different people view the CTD/Fritzler dilemma from completely different standpoints rather interesting, as a sidenote – could be telling later in the game).

Unless someone was replaced recently, I'm not going to judge people by the actions of their predecessor. It's next to impossible for them to defend against, and since they have no idea what that person was thinking, there isn't a real way to figure out the motives for their actions, since we have no reactions to read when we analyze them.

This is quoted just in case he contradicts himself later. I don't remember if he does, to be frank.

Another analysis in his Post 74. MoS is consistent with his "won't analyze previous players much" for K-Scope. I agree with his stance on Lowell (I've thought that role was pro-town since the cb0x meltdown early game). I agree with his stance on Mert (who I recall thinking was town for much of the game). Nightfall/Nightson/Samus/Phoebus indeed all needed replacing, and I frankly don't remember much about Olio myself. Another analysis I can generally agree with, in other words, I don't think MoS is stretching to defend or attack anybody here, looks rather natural.

Ooh, I still don't agree with the "scum would be better off killing the Kingmaker" interaction with me. Saying MoS's strategy was to "confuse the scum" makes no sense to me, since that pretty much assumes completely brainless scum being in the game. Probably MoS's biggest mark against him that I've read so far, and I'm not even that worried about it (since I don't see what MoS would gain making that type of statement as scum either – the entire statement itself just strikes me as silly).

I agree with MoS's comments on Dead Rikimaru in his Post 99 – recapping what has already happened without offering opinions is an easy scum-tactic.

I think I like his recent pursual of mnowax, but I'll hold off judgment until after I read mnowax's posts for myself and decide if I think he is scummy.

Overall... I still lean

against

a MoS execution. I don't really appreciate his chosen playstyle for the game, but his analyses look pretty clean to me, and although he isn't voting, he is making who he wants executed fairly clear. Not many things I can find which I find which strike me as

scummy

. I will have to read the cases against him to see if there is something I have missed, but I'm thinking he is more likely to be town than scum at this point.

[petroleumjelly]

2.) VitaminR

, [rep. DragonsofSummer (rep. Phoebus)]

Okay, starting from the beginning, going with Phoebus.

Really

not much to comment on here. Pretty much all of his votes are based completely on "gut" with minimal explanation, and this makes it very difficult to tell what he was actually thinking at the time he made his votes. I am still noting that most (if not all) of his "gut" votes have directly correlated to whoever was the soup du jour in terms of voting – he is joining all the bandwagons.

He then falls into "kill anybody" mode, which I am having a difficult time deciding if it is scummy or not. I have actually come to that very same conclusion a few times in this game (mostly on D3 – the Neverending Day), but it is clear Phoebus took this stance on D2, which seems rather premature to me. Of course, he was replaced immediately afterwards.

I still get a scummy feel from Phoebus. I don't like the timing or explanations for his votes, and I don't like how quickly he reverted to the 'kill anybody' attitude, which I can sympathize with,

but

I think his timing of that was also too premature. He also said he would be more willing to participate on D3 when there were "more results", but this doesn't seem to have ever happened.

In comes DragonofSummer...

MoS- I can't figure out how someone who doesn't care whether they live or die and as such don't really care about the game will help the town at all, and Glork raised a few good points about him a few pages back.

Noting this just because I find this especially humorous, seeing as he replaced Phoebus, who seemed to care about the game

must

less than MoS ever did. Not very impressed with his post here, actually – I'll have to check to see if CTD, MoS, and LL were the top vote-getters at the time, and if that is the case, I will be

especially

unhappy that two people in a row occupying this role are simply voting for the largest bandwagons.

[Self: Check on possible bandwagons for DoS near Jan. 31]

And then he gets replaced after promising multiple times to read the game and come up with new thoughts. Bah. This really did nothing to change my opinion on Phoebus so far, so I still say this role is scummy.

And now for VitaminR.

Can't tell where he's getting most of his opinions for his first few posts... hmm, I'm especially interested in this:

As for the current execution list, I have a slight scum vibe off Dead Rikimaru listed (he was trying to make too much out of pablito and Glork's jokey actions around page 2, I thought), but I haven't got anywhere near far enough into the thread to comment.

Followed by this:

On the List of Execution:
MoS: Nope. Town.
VitaminR: Nope. I think he may be town too.
SV: Yes.
Smashy: Leaning towards no.

Is there a reason Dead Rikimaru (now Smashy, now Battle Mage) changes here?

To be honest, this strikes me as being

very

similar to VitaminR's entrance into Space Monkeys, where he

begins

upon first entering the game by saying (very watered down) "I think Glork is scummy", and later changes fairly quickly "I think Glork is town" when he decides he 'no longer likes the case against Glork', or some such thing. Note that both Glork and VitaminR were the final scum in that game. I would like to see an explanation for this one.

Hunh, VitR is taking the same stance on Phoebus as MoS did. And I was –just– about to say that maybe I should be willing to reread Phoebus after this until I remembered that VitaminR is

replacing

Phoebus, so I would expect him to say something self-serving like that regardless.

I

do

, however, agree with his attacks on SV – but this in itself does not exactly do anything to redeem VitR in my eyes. I at first did not really pay much attention to SV at the start of the game, so I agree that it's the "lots of little things" which have added up which have led me to believe that SV is scum – though I admittedly still need to reread her posts and see if I still think this is the case.

Altogether, I still think VitR is a decent execution – there is nothing from any of Phoebus', DoS', or VitR's posts which strike me as particularly 'town', and there are few things which have struck me as scummish (for what little there is to read between these three players). There are probably better executions I would rather see go through at this point, but I would not be opposed to his execution today.

[petroleumjelly]

Whoop, meant to look to see if DoS was bandwagoning.

The last vote count before DoS replaced in and made his votes on {LL, MoS, and CTD} was found in Post 1358. The largest wagons were:

4 votes:

LL

and SV
3 votes:

MoS

, Phoebus [himself], Nightson
2 votes:

CTD

, Der Hammer, Pablito, Yos2

I suppose DoS wasn't strictly going off the largest bandwagons for his votes, so go ahead and scratch that possibilty from my analysis. However, I am interested in how he failed to comment on SV, despite the fact that she was a leading vote-getter at the time (though I do realize that he pretty much failed to comment on about everybody except for who he voted). There could be some selective voting going on here... if VitR turns up scum, I will definitely want to look at SV, and possibly Nightson (who has been replaced by TS).

[Battle Mage]

nobody has answered the questions addressed in this post.
it would be helpful for you to do so, so i can respond to anything of dire importance at the earliest opportunity.
BM

btw-can i just clarify that the only scum killed so far is Pooky?
The OP doesnt explicitly state the affiliation of anyone else, so i just wanted to be sure...
Im still rereading. Thought post 371 was worthy of an

FOS

.
Could anyone help by giving me a quick rundown of the important events of the game?
BM

[Shanba]

Well, your under major suspicion atm because of your predecessor's reigns day 3. If there was any one thing for you to address, it would be that about now.

[Battle Mage]

ok, ill try and do so asap.
im still on about page 20 atm-this is pretty heavy stuff

Well, your under major suspicion atm because of your predecessor's reigns day 3. If there was any one thing for you to address, it would be that about now.

[spectrumvoid]

Suggested reading:
1) The mega summary post by DR.
2) Post by me summarising who was on what wagon

The case for VR.
1) He's scummy because of wagoning. PJ refuted that in the later post.
2) The 'kill anybody' attitude. PJ said it's premature. I think it's alright. I think this boils down to a personal playstyle issue, and not a scum-tell.
3) Meta-gaming his change in stance. I think it's a weak point, because a: it's meta-gaming. b: he did say that he'd only read partway through the thread. I've seen many replacements change their minds after reading all the way, myself included.
4) For his connection with me, ie, for selective voting/commenting, attacking. This is some kind of logical fallacy which I can't remember, but it involves trying 2 players together when both alignements are unknown.

I don't like a VR lynch for today. I'll respond to the MoS thing later, but I prefer his execution.

[VitaminR]

PJ, your post is long and you seem fairly definitive, but this was the only thing in there that touches on my behaviour and it seems fairly trivial:

Is there a reason Dead Rikimaru (now Smashy, now Battle Mage) changes here?

To be honest, this strikes me as being very similar to VitaminR's entrance into Space Monkeys, where he begins upon first entering the game by saying (very watered down) "I think Glork is scummy", and later changes fairly quickly "I think Glork is town" when he decides he 'no longer likes the case against Glork', or some such thing. Note that both Glork and VitaminR were the final scum in that game. I would like to see an explanation for this one. .

1) The first comment was a quick one because I wasn't sure how long my reading would take. I put the page number there to illustrate that I wasn't that far into the thread yet. Also, a page 2 thing is fairly insignificant in such a big thread.
2) My stance changed because my opinion changed after reading the thread completely. There is a pretty significant difference between Space Monkey and this game. In that game, my opinion 'changed' in discussion. Here, it changed independently.Also, initially, in Space Monkey, I took a different stance. I said we needed to debate the situation more. I later took the "Glork is scummy"-angle a bit as to not be too obvious. I wasn't sure whether or not Glork's gambit would work and I didn't want to blow all our chances with it.
3) That was an endgame situation, not comparable.
4) MoS is town. I never stated anything in terms that absolute in Space Monkey. In fact, I was incredibly wishy-washy.

Is that satisfactory?

[petroleumjelly]

What did you think of Dead Rikimaru's reign as king on D3? This is mostly what I was angling at.

To answer to you, however:

1.) I agree: p2 means nothing in such a large thread. I was more interested in exactly what

in

the rest of the thread makes you lean away from a Smashy execution.
2/3/4.) Yes, Space Monkeys

was

endgame. Endgames call for more wishy-washiness upon replacing, but with so many players alive here, I would expect you to take solid stance on at least a few players, lest you draw undue attention to yourself. I am interested in

what

changed your mind.

PJ, your post is long and you seem fairly definitive,

but this was the only thing in there that touches on my behaviour

and it seems fairly trivial...

Firstly, you don't have much behavior on which to touch on, so this wording strikes me as overly dismissive. Secondly, as you remember, I

do

consider behavior from the past players relevant: so everything I found scummy about Phoebus and DoS still applies to you. And seeing as we're on the subject of Space Monkeys, explain to me if you narrowing down my post on you to solely yourself is any different than you trying to downplay Nightson's posts in Space Monkeys. Is this something your normally do when replacing?

[Thok]

btw-can i just clarify that the only scum killed so far is Pooky?
The OP doesnt explicitly state the affiliation of anyone else, so i just wanted to be sure...

You may assume that unless otherwise marked as one of Hero/Kingmaker/Assassin, all dead people in the opening post are townies.

[VitaminR]

PJ, what I mostly meant was that you seem to pick out a rather small part of my posts so far to consider. What is scummy you discuss and what may be pro-town falls into the "you haven't posted much"-category.

In Space Monkey and in this game, I'm replacing people who have barely posted. I can't really address cases that are mostly based on their absence.

I'll try to write out my notes on DR later tonight. For now, I have work to do.

[petroleumjelly]

Again, I will point out:

...you don't have much behavior on which to touch on, so this wording strikes me as overly dismissive.

Here are the posts where you talk about other players:

1.) Post 1829, you mention Dead Rikimaru off-hand as an early-game suspicion.
2.) Post 1830, you mention a few people you think are town/scum, but with absolutely no reasoning (read: nothing

I

can comment on).
3.) Post 1831, you are calling people who found Pooky suspicious on D2 suspicious.
4.) Post 1832, you further this line of thought. You again call somebody pro-town with no reasoning whatsoever.

Note

: I also find it silly how anybody who started poking at Pooky on D2 suspicious. I'm not sure what you expect - what would you have thought if

nobody

picked up on the Pooky suspicion? Though I cannot speak for others, I didn't poke at Pooky until D2 because I didn't find him overly

suspicious

until D2.
5.) Post 1837, again a post with very little reasoning, even though it is accompanied with three votes.

Really, the only post where you go into detail on

anything

is your Post 1865, followed by a few other interactive posts with SV.

And since I am

also

suspicious of SV, I wasn't going to start poking you about that. Given what little you have actually talked about

besides that

in the game, I'm afraid I don't understand how else I'm supposed to do anything but "pick out a rather small part of my posts so far to consider". Fact is, there isn't much to consider in your posts as they are currently, so I figured I'd start by asking about your change in opinion on DR/Smashy. It will be possible for me to have more pointed questions once you start giving explanations.

[Mastermind of Sin]

PJ, it was meant to be an early-game determinant, since there really wasn't enough material to work with to make me think that anyone without any votes was there because they truly looked protown.