Mini 1543--Natirasha's On Parole!(Game Over)

[The Goodfather]

I am the head who made the post you're pointing an arrow at. Our posting style are pretty distinct, so I think your case, if that's what you're calling it is pretty meh.

When I saw your earlier post, I thought that the post itself wasn't too bad, but the timing and the momentum look like where I would probably jump on a wagon if I were scum.

This last post, though, that actually comes off kinda scummy to me. I've been kinda tracking who complains about my posting content and quantity in games over time, and it is not a for sure tell, but the alignments are becoming statistically significant.

Zmuffin, you asked who is in my scumpile. When you asked me, I had concerns about Aronis. I still do. And I'll add Goodfather to the pile.

you completely avoided my concern of whether you talk to one another off thread? If so, I'd like to know why you talked to one another on the thread when you have other means of communication. If not, I can understand, the two heads need to act as one, so if your only way to communicate with one another is in this game thread, then there is no reason to be so suspicious of your inter-head communication.

and with regard to the timing, It had been a while since i had posted. I was trying to avoid needing to be prodded. I was obv too late, not that it matters much

[Bert]

@Goodfather: Hydra partners can talk amongst themselves outside of the thread, I believe.

Scum-Mara called Orcinus a "rage child" in the AMoL scum QT iirc. I don't think that's accurate, but it may feel that way when he's tunneling someone.

Thanks.

[Selkies]

I am the head who made the post you're pointing an arrow at. Our posting style are pretty distinct, so I think your case, if that's what you're calling it is pretty meh.

When I saw your earlier post, I thought that the post itself wasn't too bad, but the timing and the momentum look like where I would probably jump on a wagon if I were scum.

This last post, though, that actually comes off kinda scummy to me. I've been kinda tracking who complains about my posting content and quantity in games over time, and it is not a for sure tell, but the alignments are becoming statistically significant.

Zmuffin, you asked who is in my scumpile. When you asked me, I had concerns about Aronis. I still do. And I'll add Goodfather to the pile.

you completely avoided my concern of whether you talk to one another off thread? If so, I'd like to know why you talked to one another on the thread when you have other means of communication. If not, I can understand, the two heads need to act as one, so if your only way to communicate with one another is in this game thread, then there is no reason to be so suspicious of your inter-head communication.

and with regard to the timing, It had been a while since i had posted. I was trying to avoid needing to be prodded. I was obv too late, not that it matters much

I didn't "avoid" it. I didn't think it really warranted a reply because it's common knowledge that hydra talk to each other outside the game thread. Have you never played games with hydrae at MS before?

We do talk outside the thread, but we don't try to present a totally consensus "player" in the game thread. We're two people, arguably two strong players, and I believe it's pro-town to give town the benefit of both our thought processes and and conclusions.

[The Goodfather]

I am the head who made the post you're pointing an arrow at. Our posting style are pretty distinct, so I think your case, if that's what you're calling it is pretty meh.

When I saw your earlier post, I thought that the post itself wasn't too bad, but the timing and the momentum look like where I would probably jump on a wagon if I were scum.

This last post, though, that actually comes off kinda scummy to me. I've been kinda tracking who complains about my posting content and quantity in games over time, and it is not a for sure tell, but the alignments are becoming statistically significant.

Zmuffin, you asked who is in my scumpile. When you asked me, I had concerns about Aronis. I still do. And I'll add Goodfather to the pile.

you completely avoided my concern of whether you talk to one another off thread? If so, I'd like to know why you talked to one another on the thread when you have other means of communication. If not, I can understand, the two heads need to act as one, so if your only way to communicate with one another is in this game thread, then there is no reason to be so suspicious of your inter-head communication.

and with regard to the timing, It had been a while since i had posted. I was trying to avoid needing to be prodded. I was obv too late, not that it matters much

I didn't "avoid" it. I didn't think it really warranted a reply because it's common knowledge that hydra talk to each other outside the game thread. Have you never played games with hydrae at MS before?

We do talk outside the thread, but we don't try to present a totally consensus "player" in the game thread. We're two people, arguably two strong players, and I believe it's pro-town to give town the benefit of both our thought processes and and conclusions.

thats fair, and it makes sense that players with different styles pair up. if two players with the same style played together, it would probably be fairly misleading. And I have come across hydras on this site, but i didn't think that the rules regarding hydras were the same universally, I figured there were different rules according to the mod. Like i thought that each head was supposed to sign their posts. I get that you and orc have different styles, so its probably not necessary to sign your posts if a new player like me can pick up on it. (Assuming that I am responding to a post from ffery)

And my ignorance on hydras I think mostly comes from having never been in one before. I asked about a hydra that SSK was in in another game (with someone named mastin i think), but i never got an answer about how it works.

[Selkies]

Just by the fucking way we will play our hydra how we want to play our hydra

Some hydras want to be unified. Others (like us) have two players with very distinct styles and we might not want to force ourselves into a playstyle that neither is comfortable with. That is our goddamn prerogative.

And yeah if you read any of our past games we do talk inthread a lot. We normally pull things to skype when we wanna match reads, but aside from that we sort of each do our own thing.

Also the argument that hydra slipping is scummy is the dumbest thing I've heard all day. I phone post a lot and so I don't always remind myself to switch accounts.

95% of my posts are focused on the game. The other 5% are "fluff" because I do play this game for fun. And guess what? I do have fun by having banter with fery inthread, by poking cabd. How on earth is this scum indicative?

[Selkies]

I don't know if any of the players I hydra with have a similar enough style to be totally confusing. I don't think so. Geists (Natirasha and I) is maybe a little confusing at first.

People figure who is writing a particular post pretty easily after a couple pages worth of game. If it looks like someone is confused Orcinus or I speak up.

I'm not sure what you were asking by "how it works". That probably varies from hydra to hydra. 2 (or more) people, one role pm, one vote. Votes are either consensus or tug-of-war depending on how/if the hydra players decide to work together.

[The Goodfather]

Just by the fucking way we will play our hydra how we want to play our hydra

Some hydras want to be unified. Others (like us) have two players with very distinct styles and we might not want to force ourselves into a playstyle that neither is comfortable with. That is our goddamn prerogative.

And yeah if you read any of our past games we do talk inthread a lot. We normally pull things to skype when we wanna match reads, but aside from that we sort of each do our own thing.

Also the argument that hydra slipping is scummy is the dumbest thing I've heard all day. I phone post a lot and so I don't always remind myself to switch accounts.

95% of my posts are focused on the game. The other 5% are "fluff" because I do play this game for fun. And guess what? I do have fun by having banter with fery inthread, by poking cabd. How on earth is this scum indicative?

haha, I'm not telling you how to play. That would be extremely hypocritical of me as a new member, and i don't think anything i've said can be viewed or construed as me telling you how to play. I was merely giving my reads and justifying my vote. You obviously disagree, as is your prerogative. As I've said, I am wary of hydras, and I will continue to be as long as they remain unknown to me. That may be simple minded, but i have found that skepticism is often justified in this game, especially this early in the game

[Selkies]

Just by the fucking way we will play our hydra how we want to play our hydra

Some hydras want to be unified. Others (like us) have two players with very distinct styles and we might not want to force ourselves into a playstyle that neither is comfortable with. That is our goddamn prerogative.

And yeah if you read any of our past games we do talk inthread a lot. We normally pull things to skype when we wanna match reads, but aside from that we sort of each do our own thing.

Also the argument that hydra slipping is scummy is the dumbest thing I've heard all day. I phone post a lot and so I don't always remind myself to switch accounts.

95% of my posts are focused on the game. The other 5% are "fluff" because I do play this game for fun. And guess what? I do have fun by having banter with fery inthread, by poking cabd. How on earth is this scum indicative?

haha, I'm not telling you how to play. That would be extremely hypocritical of me as a new member, and i don't think anything i've said can be viewed or construed as me telling you how to play. I was merely giving my reads and justifying my vote. You obviously disagree, as is your prerogative. As I've said, I am wary of hydras, and I will continue to be as long as they remain unknown to me. That may be simple minded, but i have found that skepticism is often justified in this game, especially this early in the game

This post exemplifies what comes off as scummy in your stance. "Spam", "I don't know who is posting", etc. were your vote reasons, and you've conceded those points basically but your vote is still down because "I'm wary of hydras".

[Selkies]

You see, you're not attempting to discern our alignment. You're just binning us "because hydra". If you're town, then part of your job is to actually sort us. If you're scum, do please keep right along with this non-scumhunting.

[The Goodfather]

Don't get me wrong, I still think you are scum, and it is not just because you are a hydra. You may have called it the stupidest thing you've seen all day, but I still think you guys unnecessarily spammed the first 1/3 of this thread. Also, I will not change my vote just because you are trying to belittle my read by saying its the stupidest thing you've heard all day. You confirmed my thought that you communicated with one another outside the thread. Just because you say you converse with one another in thread for the sake of the other players being able to differentiate between the two of you does not mean your posts are any less spam. I have gone over the first 6 pages several times now, and each time i feel more confident in this.

Add to the fact that my one vote has both hydra heads biting at me further confirms my belief that you are scum.

[Bert]

Goodfather, I like the emotion in your posts - the conviction.

[zMuffinMan]

bert is scum

he hasn't done anything completely antitown, he hasn't self-voted and he hasn't asked to be lynched

[Bert]

If you give me some space [for a while], I can try to reset and try to play to the best of my abilities.

[Bert]

I was only able to get pressure off for like 24-48 real life hours during Mini 1523 (a past game), and that is when I was able to do my own thing for a bit (remember the nonsensical walls I put up?). Suffice to say, I probably can't do anything about your opinion - since you thought every single post I made in that game (1523) was scum and anti-town.

[FourTrouble]

Well, since a few people seem really interested in why Ross is scum, here's a bunch of good reasons to vote him:

In regards to Goodfather and Katsuki, I don't see it being scummy to criticize the infamous rule six. I see it as an individually minded town player being worried that even if he or she is actively hunting and aiding the town, he or she might still get randomly lynched because the rest of the town is lazy or indecisive. Although town shouldn't be worried about getting lynched, because the point of the game isn't to make it to the end, it's to find scum. This isn't Survivor.

In regards to Selkies, pointing out who might be an easy lynch isn't good for the town. Even if you are town, you're giving information to uncreative scum about who would be a good target to pile on, and if enough people declare so-and-so to be an easy lynch, people are going to start seeing scum in them just because people are lazy

The post doesn't contribute anything useful and is basically safe stuff to say. The first paragraph is just saying there is nothing scummy about rule 6, a position that had already been argued and was mostly irrelevant to the game at this point. The analysis of Selkies is just a mundane theoretical point, again not really telling us anything in terms of who the scum are. Ross even frames it in terms of "not good for the town" rather than saying Selkies is scummy. It's too safe and shows a lack of scunhunting.

To put it another way, it feels like Ross is trying to find theoretical positions to disagree/agree with, a lens more likely to come from scum, rather than attempting to genuinely figure out who the scum are. Scum tend to read the game looking for these sorts of theoretical points to comment on because they are safe and don't really expose your motivations. If you look back over the game, the reason Selkies is town is precisely because he has moments where it shows that he's genuinely trying to figure out who the scum are. Ross doesn't have any of that here, while making what appears to be a substantive post, and that's a major red flag, my opinion. There are also some minor points about this post that I really don't like -- the phrase "This isn't Survivor," for example, just feels really fake. It feels like Ross is overstating the point, something scum are prone to do.

In regards to Selkies, pointing out who might be an easy lynch isn't good for the town. Even if you are town, you're giving information to uncreative scum about who would be a good target to pile on, and if enough people declare so-and-so to be an easy lynch, people are going to start seeing scum in them just because people are lazy

I'm not the head who made the observation out loud, but in many games players are familiar enough with each other to know who are likely lynchbait, who are bus-candidates if they are scum, etc. One of the places I look for scum is on the "easy lynch" wagons.

Why do you think scum would be found on the easy lynch wagon? When I think of people who would be targetted for easy lynches, I think of new players who have no idea what they're doing but are trying to keep up with people posting text walls, so they rack their brains and end up with bs, which gets them targetted pretty easily. Not that new players can't be scum, but I think new player scum tend to be quiet and stay under the radar and try to get as little attention as possible.

Which is why I think we need to pay attention to Aronis, and also to Mafiassk for saying we should leave him alone just because he's new,

because if Aronis is scum

, that's exactly what we should do if we want to let him keep slipping and scumming along

The first paragraph here, again, is just disagreeing with a theoretical point -- are scum on easy lynches? -- rather than trying to figure out Selkies' alignment. I just don't see why Ross is putting this much effort discussing this point when it has literally no bearing on Selkies' alignment.

The second point -- pay attention to Aronis/SSK -- is basically saying, "let's go after easy lynches," because they COULD be scum. I'm bolding the key phrase here that really bugs me. When someone is reading the game in terms of what is possible, like X "could" be scum, then that person is not really hunting for scum. They're just looking for people they "could" get lynched. Town don't read the game that way. They read the game in terms of probabilities, things like X is "probably" scum because of Y reason.

Selkies, if we're laboring under different ideas, could you just explain to me simply what you mean?

And Bert, I haven't played mafia in a few years, so anything out of the norm is probably just me resharpening my rusty tools. That's also the reason why everyone seems to know each other already except for me.

I didn't like this post either. The question directed at Selkies doesn't really make much sense to me. And the "haven't played mafia in a few years" thing and "everyone seems to know each other except me" bit just doesn't sit well with me.

[Bert]

I was trying to avoid needing to be prodded. I was obv too late, not that it matters much

Yeah it does matter. A little worrying that you added that last sentence. Where has anyone indicated that it "doesn't matter much?"

Just by the fucking way we will play our hydra how we want to play our hydra

I don't think Goodfather's opposing the way you play your hydra, so this is pretty overdefensive. And he/she has a point tbh about the first 6-7 pages too blown out of proportion.

still scum

you apparently think i'm scum, though, so i don't know why you care how i feel about it

This sounds anti-town. Sorry, had to say it, since you call everything I do anti-town.

I'm resetting right now.

[FourTrouble]

It scares me to be thinking this so early, but SSK looks pretty town.

Goodfather taking the "spamming" point too far. I'm kinda torn now. His read on Selkies doesn't seem genuine.

[FourTrouble]

Oh, I quoted that post because I was gonna make a comment that I thought it was very towny. I think I said that earlier too.

[zMuffinMan]

This sounds anti-town. Sorry, had to say it

elaborate, and why would you be sorry about saying it if you legitimately think it's anti-town?

[FourTrouble]

Cabd(overactivity first 6 pages, and then suddenly disappearing. Could just actually be sick. Could be avoiding the spotlight)

Listen up asshole, because I'm only gonna tell you this once.

Mafia is a game. You can insult my play. You can insult my reads. You can insult my logic. But you know what you don't do? You sure as fuck don't trivialize an illness I was born with, and can cite the existence of in plenty of other places, as me abusing my honor. I get stomach acid piped up my throat daily, and I've been having that happen since the day I was born. Some days are easier, some days are harder. This past week has been a flurry of "harder" ones. Go google "Gastric reflux" and then go sit in the corner and feel like shit until you apologize.

Up until I read the last line, i was prepared to apologize.
1) I have ever played with you before, so I would have no reason or occasion to recall your illness.

2)I never said anything about your honor, but the way you responded makes me think that you have none, or more likely, thatyou are scum.


Everyones got something to bitch about in their life, the difference is not everyone uses it as a crutch. Take a tums or some fucking alka seltzer. No need to rip off my head for an observation that your activity has decreased substantially. And if you really wanted an apology, you might try in the future to be less of a dickhead

Bert, what are you thoughts on this post?

[FourTrouble]

Also, for the record, I dunno what the problem so many people had with me not providing a reason for voting Ross, or with asking others what they thought of Ross. There is value in directing attention to a player without providing your own thoughts on the matter and seeing what others think of the player. For instance, it helps compare your own thought process to others. I also tend to think town are more likely to offer their thoughts on a player in that situation than scum, as town are trying to figure things out and will turn their critical attention to someone being voted.

[Idiotking]

But it also stinks of fishing for reasons. The only reason I didn't vote for you based just on that was because you don't seem to be that colossally stupid.

[FourTrouble]

Ross is scummier, and I'll explain that later, when and if I have time. I'd love to hear what others think of Ross though.

I don't really see anything out of the norm from Ross. He asked a few questions. Had a breif convo with Selkies about easy lynches, seems more like different playstyles then anything else. I don't really see enough in his posts to make lean towards scum or town for that matter. Calling Rule 6 "Infamous" is a little bit strange, but I can see what he means.

Ross is underwhelming. There's nothing of importance in his ISO. His interaction with fery was a miss, but that's not particularly scum indicative I don't think?

calling rule 6 "infamous" in 291 was weird

Sure, you can spin it that way but why not spin it as town genuinely interested in what others thought of his vote? It's not really persuasive in either direction. The truth of the matter is that I didn't have time to offer my own reasons, and I was interested in what others thought. What I find more important is the information we got from my so-called "fishing" -- Selkies and Aronis offering their own thoughts -- which gives them town points in my book.

[Bert]

Because it's hypocritical for me to say, muffin. Because it's hypocritical.

@fourtrouble: the altercation from both sides got more heated than necessary, and both sides are at fault? Not alignment indicative at all... Moving on...

[zMuffinMan]

that's not elaborating on why you think it's antitown