The MafiaScum Minecraft Thread - AllTheMods 9!!! - NEW Vanilla?

[Gabegonzo]

Hey guys. Just joining the forums so I can stay up-to-date on news and events. Let me know if there's anything I can help with.

Gabegonzo aka Gabemiester08

[Rhinox]

welcome to the forums

[Claus]

Why are we switching to a snapshot instead of a stable build?

I thought the original idea for this incarnation of the Vanilla server was for it to stay on the bleeding edge of Vanilla?

[Rhinox]

Why are we switching to a snapshot instead of a stable build?

I thought the original idea for this incarnation of the Vanilla server was for it to stay on the bleeding edge of Vanilla?

yeah that was the idea. I don't know if it still is since we reset the world with the biome update. With all the new activity on vanilla and all the cool stuff people have been building, I kinda like the keep updating but only to the proven stable snapshots like we've been doing. It would be a real shame to lose this world to a bad snapshot or something within our control like that. This is a pretty awesome world so far . Challenging the first vanilla server (that hardly anyone playing now even remembers) for my new favorite world.

[My Milked Eek]

Is that the world that got griefed? With Bay Eek?

[Untrod Tripod]

okay I'm back

does anyone mind if I set off in search of new lands?

[Maestro]

okay I'm back

does anyone mind if I set off in search of new lands?

Sorry, but I'd like to ask you to put this on hold - we've had some truly awful lag issues lately...maybe restrict your "journeying" to when not many people are on...?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Also ETL, we're more or less putting the wall around your build by the bay, take a look to make sure we gave you enough room.

I do not approve of the wall?? I thought this was made clear by everyone LIVING there.

[Rhinox]

Is that the world that got griefed? With Bay Eek?

yes! While other worlds have been awesome in their own ways, that one has always been my favorite. This world reminds me of that in many ways, only as a community we're building much cooler things now than we were back then, so its got potential to be even better

edit: thats not to say people weren't building cool things back then as well, just that collectively as a group we've gotten better at minecraft over the years

[My Milked Eek]

That was a very cool world. I was the one that discovered the griefing. I was really sad that my entire village was burnt down and my "awesome" wooden bridge. I loved that world.

[T-Bone]

Whatever I don't care about the idea anymore. Take your shit up with whoever still cares about having a town at spawn.

[Tierce]

That's some reaction for someone who decided to build on people's areas without their input, T-Bone. Yes, people are pissed, and yes, it was partially your fault. Wouldn't do you any ill to realize why we're annoyed that you decided what our borders should be for ourselves. ETL, Kcdaspot, myself--we all live in the areas that the wall was on, no one else was affected, and not a single one of us was asked about this before you built it. You're taking your ball and going home instead of realizing that we were annoyed with damned good reason or actually discussing how and where a spawntown can be built without being invasive. Why did you cut down the trees on the swamp that were pretty obviously near a build?

Apologizing is apparently really difficult.


On spawn mountain, I want to build a cooked chicken shop. I have a question for M: I can make a small, automated chicken farm in the spawn chunks for this, but I don't know how welcome this would be given that the spawn chunks are always loaded. 10 adults plus whatever chicks they produce (plus a handful of chickens on the yard for show)--would that cause any considerable load on the server?

[T-Bone]

I didn't do shit but put down an outline. So don't be yelling at me. Whatever they did after I left I had no control over. All I did was put down an outline to get people's input, and instead of "hey let's put the wall in a different spot" I get, "TEAR DOWN THIS SHIT RIGHT NOW AND FUCK YOU". So yes, I get to be pissed off. Notice I said "ETL, we put the wall near you, take a look if we gave you enough room". All ETL had to say was "nope, how about you push it back/it interferes with me". Instead everyone has got to make a big fuss about tearing down the outline. A 1 fucking block outline that wasn't harming anyone and was only temporary. If the rest of them actually started building after I left, I'm sorry that they did that. But I'm being shat all over because?

Oh and also I'm being bitched at because I put some torches around the skellie grinder? The fuck is that shit. It's not like I broke anything, all I did was light the thing up to prevent it from spawning a million skeletons.

But you guys do what you want, no more community involvement for T-Bone.

[Tierce]

The spawner wasn't causing lag, that makes no sense, because you need to be within 16 blocks of it to start spawning. However, no one bitched at you over this. And no one "bitched" at YOU directly for the rest. We don't know who did it beause no one has come out to claim the invasive stuff like chopping down all the trees. You were there. Maruchan was obviously there. We weren't, so we don't know who is responsible, but this is the thread where we can talk about it, so yes, we are going to use this to voice our disagreement.

It doesn't matter if it is a one-block outline. Three people. Three people that live there and you couldn't wait for anyone to be around to ask them, and you didn't even bother to ask Kcdaspot or myself, or ask who made the builds in the swamp area. You just assumed it was acceptable to build an unnatural-looking wall and constrict us into a spawntown area we hadn't asked for. So yes, we DO have the right to be annoyed at someone who "just" built a one-block wide ugly cobblestone wall that doesn't follow the terrain and creates artificial borders.

If you don't want to participate in community stuff, that is your choice. But don't fool yourself into thinking you were doing something very community-y when you chose to do it without the input of the people *already* living there.

[Rhinox]

Spoiler: Part 1 to ETL

SOOOO YAH.

I finally fixed my vanilla. Nice pyramid near my house but like... this was my space. And someone just put a line of cobble cutting off my desert. And that's not very nice.

So I'm moving. You can have my space when I'm done tearing it down.

I AM TEARING DOWN THAT WALL. BAD.

I know we talked about this on IRC and in game last night and all, and M asked not to fight about the wall anymore which I'm not going to do, I just wanted to formally apologize for building my maze pyramid in your area - I didn't realize that was your area. Another player had a temp shelter in the area where I started building, and that player said they had abandoned the project they were planning and gave me their blessing to build there. I got opinions/blessings from pretty much all the most active players on the server before I started building so that I wouldn't upset anyone with my build. Originally, I was going to build a cube maze, but one player didn't like that idea since I was in their line of sight so we talked about it and agreed that changing to a pyramid would be better (and I really think the pyramid is turning out better than a cube would have anyways, so its really a win-win). The one thing I didn't want to do was upset anyone by building a mega-structure somewhere people didn't like. At the same time, I'm building the maze for the whole server community, not myself, so I wanted to be somewhat close to spawn where people would find and visit the maze regularly, and not have to make a journey away from civilization to visit it where it might never be seen more than once by everyone. I knew your house was right there but I didn't know how much area you had claimed. All your builds (tree farm, animal pens, etc) were on the opposite side of your house from where I built, and I thought I had given you enough of a berth even on the backside of your house that I wouldn't be encroaching on your area. If you'd have been online, I certainly would have asked you if it was OK for me to build there and if you'd have said no, then I'd have moved elsewhere. Its not your fault, but I hadn't seen you online in weeks, ever since you started up your modded server. I didn't know if you had abandoned the area or the server all together. You mentioned that your tree farm was blown up - I don't know who did it or when it happened, but it has been like that since before I started building there. But still thats on me, I definitely should have tracked you down on IRC or something and asked you for your blessing regardless of not seeing you around the server for a while. If you hate it and want me to tear it down, I'll do it and move elsewhere. However, I really hope you don't ask me to do that because I've put in almost a month of work on this project so far since I started collecting resources and I'd really hate to have to basically start over. I know we talked last night and you seemed OK with it once you saw it was me and what I was doing inside, but I just wanted you to know that if it was your area and you had plans that didn't include a giant pyramid in your backyard, that I would remove it if you asked it of me.

----------

Spoiler: Part 2 to everybody

I also wanted to kick off some kind of discussion on the unspoken courtesies of the server, to hopefully avoid something like this happening in the future. Some people may think it doesn't need a discussion, that its simply "don't build walls in people's areas", but its probably not that simple for everyone and that we need to come to an understanding to make sure everyone is on the same page. We haven't needed this discussion for a while because vanilla has been so inactive for a long time, but with renewed interest and people rejoining from different areas and having different expectations, I think we have to do a better job communicating what all our own individual expectations are so that we don't inadvertantly violate someone elses expectations.

First, a little history lesson. There have been 4 major mafiascum vanilla worlds I have been a part of. There may have been one or 2 earlier worlds before I joined, but I believe the first world I was a part of is what most consider the first major, longstanding world. The world lasted for at least a year, and passed through ~5 or maybe even more Ops/owners/hosts. This server had the "pit of minor inconvenience" (when the world was formed, spawn was in a 2-block high pit, and because it was under spawn protection, no one could get out ), and we had spawn bay - an area around spawn where people build houses and developed a nice little spawn area. It is remarkably similar to how our current server spawn area is developing - organically, footpaths between places, no walls, etc. But it was generally understood that people didn't really claim large areas around spawn - just enough to build a modest house and decorate the immediate area, maybe dig a mine with the understanding that someone else might dig into your mine due to proximity, and there was an understanding that pretty much anywhere within close proximity to spawn bay was fair game as far as new people coming in and building a house. There wasn't even a no ugly builds rule, so if someone wanted to build an all-1-blocktype box house just down the street from your mansion, it could/would happen. The understanding was that if you wanted to have a huge area or control the type of builds around it (or request that no one build around your area), then you would move a distance away from spawn bay and be secluded.

The second world was also a major world and lasted a good while, but it formed a little differently. Spawn was manually placed in a nice area on a mountain overlooking a NPC village. The NPC village was the starting point of spawn town. First we moved in and took over buildings and built a small wall around the area that we lit up within for mob proofing. eventually we would tear down most of the original NPC village and replace them with custom houses/bases. We had all sorts of community farms within, and when we filled up everywhere within the wall, we would tear a section down and expand. Pretty much any empty space inside the wall was considered community space that anyone could build on. If people had plans for areas, people would put up signs and post in thread saying so. I built a small house on the bay, and built a fenced boardwalk along the coast instead of a solid wall for the mob-proofing there. The house was mine, but the boardwalk was community - even housed the nether portal for a while. We had tunnels connecting all the houses underground - the origin of the Hub, and scenic underground and above ground walk ways up to spawn from the village. And like the previous server, it was pretty much anything goes inside spawn town, and if you wanted your own base/area, you moved away from spawn. It was even more exaggerated than the previous server because spawn town was even higher in build density than spawn bay of the previous server.

The third world is kinda a dark age. I'll call it the "snapshot" world. There was very little activity. Only a few of us were regularly active. The death of theprevious world and throughout this one was when the modded worlds were at their high point, so most chose to play on modded. Because of there being so little activity, there was really little collaboration. At least not as much as in the past. People could pretty much claim any size area they wanted right near spawn, and still be out of site of the nearest neighbor if you'd like. This was all because of the low activity, really, and not because we've changed how we played. And we still had things like the infamous giant wooden cube house that popped up one day in between my farm and another's area.

That brings me to this world and the point of the history lesson. Currently, vanilla is as popular as it was at the peak of the golden ages between world 1 and world 2. We are a much more diverse community. We have "old timers" who started playing during the first "spawn bay" world and before. A large portion of the community started playing during the walled "spawn town" world, and a few didn't join the community until the "snapshot" world that was almost like playing SSP on a server. Naturally, people from the different ages of the server have different ideas for how to play minecraft. Some prefer to just go out and build somewhere and don't organize a walled spawntown and just develop areas naturally, like the first server. Some want to recreate the highly connected community walled spawn town of the second server. Some are used to life in the "snapshot" server, just wanting to claim an are and do what they want with it and not see ugly things in their line of sight. Some people just want bits and pieces - the bests - of each world, but people have different idea of what the bests really are.

So, when something like a cobble line indicating where a wall would go shows up in your back yard, I just want people to realize that its not because someone was disrespecting your area - in fact its likely people didn't even realize it was your area. In the major past servers, the area around spawn was typically a fair game communitity area, and as long as people were not literally right on top of another build, it was free space to build there. Nobody had signs up indicating how much space they had claimed, except for maybe the Kc's swamp sign. I don't think anybody really knew they were violating anybody's spaces, because traditionally they were far enough away from the builds to be outside of "spaces" - in previous servers, nobody claimed big areas around spawn, and areas they did claim and had plans for and wanted to make sure no one built into, they put up signs saying as much.

I feel partly responsible, because when the discussion of where to build "new spawn town" was going on, some people were planning on building it away from spawn, and others didn't think that would make a good spawn town because it was too far away from spawn. I supported/suggested building a spawn town actually around spawn - but I wasn't aware until it was actually happening what it actually meant, with the wall, and where it was going, and the cutting down trees that happened.

But thats why we need to have this discussion now I think. In past servers, the wall that was laid out wouldn't have broken any of the unspoken rules. But probably before actually starting to do any work, there should have been more of a discussion on the forums here about if an organized spawn town was wanted, if a wall was wanted, where should it be, etc - and actually, there was some talk about it in the forums and nobody who was posting really voiced any objections to the idea of a spawn town. I guess more planning should have happened first though. And we need to have an understanding about things like how close to builds are considered claimed areas, and should people mark their claimed areas better? I mean, just for example where the wall was marked near the bag end side of spawn, I probably wouldn't have thought twice about building a house in there behind on the coast between KC's swamp and tierce's barn. I wouldn't have known that was claimed area, or that I wasn't far enough away from the existing builds. I mean, there was Kc's sign, and I know how tierce likes her area based on playing with her on the snapshot server so I probably wouldn't have built there especially not without asking for permission. But for people just returning now who didn't really play on the snapshot and are tryin to recreate past experiences, that area certainly would have been considered far enough away to be a fair place to build.


I know this is a long post and I see I didn't get it posted in time before tempers started flaring again but I was just hoping to let all parties have a better understanding about where people were coming from - why people wanted a wall, why people built it where they did and didn't think it would be a problem, and why people are maybe not liking the wall in their areas.

I really love this server, this world, and this community, as if that isn't obvious by how long I've been a part of it, and I am absolutely thrilled that vanilla is getting popular again and people who played 2 or 3 servers ago are coming back and building cool things again. But this is really just a big misunderstanding based on different personalities and expectations of people who started playing in diferent eras. I was online, I should have maybe said something about waiting/planning/etc before we start laying down the outline but I was too obsessed with working on my maze at the time so thats on me. People building maybe were a little too enthusiastic about getting started without planning but I don't really hold enthusiasm against them - no one acted out of malice, and people did think they were building for the community. Other people maybe reacted a little too hostile/negatively to the situation but they didn't really know what was going on. In the end there's no harm done. No reason to rage at each other, no reason to rage quit or not have any more community involvement. Everyone just needs to quit yelling at each other and realize where people are coming from.


I'd still like a spawn town, walled or not. I haven't even built a house yet on the server because I was waiting for an area to start developing so I could build there with the community. Maybe we just let the bay side of spawn mountain develop naturally without a wall as it is now, and build a walled spawn town on the death games side of spawn mountain?

[T-Bone]

THE WHOLE POINT WAS TO GET INPUT! You're obviously completely dense as to what is going on then. If the outline was seriously invasive to people's plots, then they got some problems. At least for what I built there wasn't a wall, there wasn't any terraforming, there wasn't anything intruding other than a few bits of cobblestone that as has been demonstrated already took little effort to remove. So fuck off with your self righteous "you didn't ask for any input waaaah* bullshit. Because that's EXACTLY what I did. That's EXACTLY what would have been done every step of the way. I didn't damage anyone's land or anyone's builds.

[Rhinox]

Oh and before I forget, there is some really minor creeper damage to the path and bridge between bag and and the bridge to ETL's place. Not more than a couple stone and cobble blocks and maybe an acacia log. It happened during the crazy lag yesterday morning before M restarted the server. Person who got creepered didn't even realize - right after it happened M restarted the server and I was just gonna fix it and not bother making a thing of it but I didn't have time/resources to do it.

[Tierce]

I've been supporting a town on spawn mountain for a while. If nothing else, shops and not-gigantic lots can look really good. I've been wanting to play around with wood, quartz, coal, stone, clays, and get a modern build.

Thanks for the history lesson, Rhinox. It's appreciated, though I don't think anyone faults you for what happened.

I don't mind neighbors. But you know what happened on the last server? Overnight, Bulbazak's gigantic spruce planks cube sprouted up on "my" area. I never got any note about it before he built, and had to deal with that frankly ghastly sight whenever I poked at the bay area. You can build whatever you want, sure, it's a sandbox world, but I'm a little burned out by neighbors. Getting people nearby who decided to raze the world-generation of trees that are specific to that biome was annoying and gave me flashbacks. Just ask, please. I discussed Rhinox's maze with him, I'm helping him with lighting, I provide trades with villagers to anyone who wants... I'm not an irascible old scrooge. But I *do* take a lot of pride on the looks of the areas I build in, mine and everyone else's. Rhinox's builds on the last server thrilled me and I had a lot of fun by the end adding market tents between us to create a sort of farm community. If the area I pick out to build is suddenly completely changed because someone decided to remove all the trees or decide that there ought to be a wall... I get wary, and wary of how good a neighbor are you going to be in the future if you don't choose to discuss things with me.


Because this came up a while back, I'm Khirsash on the server. I built the fishing hut in the middle of the spawn bay, and my main base is on the swamp to the northwest of town. There's a house on a small island, a stable on the mainland, and a lot of trees and undergrowth on the swamp area at this point. If you want to build in the area, please ask me--we can both get to an agreement and build things that work together. If you don't ask, I can't guess who you are or what your intentions are, but please realize I've seen a giant spruce cube by in my area and have bad memories of it. Try to understand where I'm coming from and I'll do the same. It's a pretty area and if recent projects are any indication, I love nothing more than detail work with outdoor features.


Quite frankly, T-Bone, you can bugger right off. I've been polite, if annoyed, while you have done little more than swear at people. I'm done, and quite glad you don't want to participate in community stuff if your response to negative feedback is to bitch people out like you've been doing.

[T-Bone]

You're the one who got angry and starting shouting in the thread rather than having a civil discussion, so fuck right off with the self-righteousness. "trespass at your own goddamn risk" and other shit. I'm upset that rather than trying to have a discussion people came in here yelling at the thread.

[Tierce]

Yeah, how dare I make a semi-jokey post in the middle of a tirade about being pissed off my that my horses were taken out of their stalls (remarkably, this only happened with saddled horses!), that people cut down ALL trees near my area, and that there is a wall now in plain view because all trees have been cut down. "Goddamn" is a seriously strong word to use in that context compared to "fuck off" and "I'm done with community stuff and you can take up that shit elsewhere", you're absolutely right.

[T-Bone]

Glad we agree that you're completely missing the point.

[Tierce]

You ask for input BEFORE you lay down things, T-Bone. You want to build with the community, you build WITH the community. You wait for the word of people who live in those areas, you ask them. If you didn't know who else lived nearby, you should have asked. Before. To everyone. Not post-facto, to ETL alone. And if you decide to bypass this point, don't get surprised if there is backlash, because what you chose to do was clearly seen as invasive. The intention might have been good, it was not received well because of several circumstances surrounding it.

You chose to lash right back and swear at people and pout off. This... this is not the behavior of someone who is truly looking for input.

The input is obvious: down there, we'd like organic growth. Please have the grace to accept that. If you don't accept that, pity, but no one really came to us with any idea that worked with what we have going so far. Why throw a fit and decide you have no dealings with the community anymore if you got exactly what you asked for out of the person you DID (belatedly) ask? The rest of us were saddled with a lot of landscape change, the irritation was directed at whoever did it, not directly at YOU, but you chose to take it personally and swore at US, when what we did was an attempt to restore the landscape.

There are a lot of places we can make a spawntown work on. Like that mountain, with a lot of flat ground. I'd love to do it, though personally I really don't like walls. Choosing not to discuss any of the feedback you received defeats the purpose of even asking for it. What is your stance on building lots on spawn mountain?

[T-Bone]

I'm not upset about that. We don't need to build there. I'm upset about your reaction to what was done, which is the point you seem to be missing! It's not like damage was done to anything. There are 10 odd people who have builds near that area. It's ludicrous to suggest that no plans be made unless everyone is online all at once. I don't know about the tree thing, but that's again not the point. I'm annoyed by the reaction that happened in here, specifically yours! We have lots of lag near spawn because of all the entities you have going on, or when you afk at a spawner, but the rest of us don't come in here yelling and carrying on about the lag! Because let's make this clear there is a huge lag sink around your builds because of all the entities you have locked up, the nether portal, and such. I don't think anyone has ever once asked you to remove them. At most you've been asked to limit them, or turn things off when not in use. You have some stuff going on that inconveniences the rest of us, but we don't act all indignified about it. But something happens that inconveniences you, and you pretty much flip your shit. Weren't you the one who got upset that someone was building across the bay just because you could see it? Didn't they accommodate you rather than flip out? You skipped the accommodate step and flipped right the fuck out, and THAT'S the issue. This was supposed to be a community build. All someone had to do was say "i don't like it, can we do away with it" and that would have been the end of it. We were talking about multiple locations and we laid down an outline for a possible location. Despite the line being built in cobblestone nothing was set in stone! There wasn't a 5 by 5 wall with castle decorations, vines, and an overhang built up anywhere that I was aware of. Your reaction was disproportionate to what was actually going on and THAT IS the issue. Was it specifically directed at me? No, but it was about activities I was privy to, activities that have a little value to me because of the spawntown server and my involvement with spearheading that effort. Just like you think we weren't considering your feelings, you obviously weren't considering anyone else's either.

I have no problem if we want to pick another place. We thought the area by the bay would be good because people were already there. But walking to the bay is only one direction from spawn, there are certainly other directions we can go instead, and if the bay area is out, the bay area is out. Not a big deal. I thought going upstream from the river on the outside of the mountain might be cool too.

[Tierce]

The lag is not my fault. The bit at the spawner one day was and I owned up to it. M has said that the previous server had the same amount of entities affecting things than I have here, and it did not cause a problem then. I cut down on entities, both mobs and frames. I lit up a nearby cave due to zombies and villagers. But never have I walked into the server and defaced an area or moved someone's horses. Spawner lag? Kick me out of the server and they'll despawn. Deforestation? It's work I need to have. My horses? They were MINE, someone decided to take them for a walk and didn't put them back. The situations are not comparable and I've done my part to keep lag at a manageable level. I did not swear at people who asked me to do so or showed concerns with how things are working in that area, I acommodated the best I could and the server was upgraded. I don't have more entities than I did on the previous server, ergo it's really not me.

[Rhinox]

Thanks for the history lesson, Rhinox. It's appreciated, though I don't think anyone faults you for what happened.

I know but I mean like maru was going to go start setting up a wall template around MME's village for the community "spawn" town building area and I was partially to blame for encouraging him to build a spawn town actually at spawn. So I feel like none of this would have happened if I wouldn't have said anything and I don't want maru to read the thread later and go through all this again thinking he's being wrung out to dry on something that's not entirely his doing. I just want us all to get along

I love nothing more than detail work with outdoor features.

That reminds me, I was going to ask if you'd be interested in helping out with some of the aesthetic features and details outside my maze? I'm no good with that stuff - I'm an engineer/architect, not an artist/designer. I can make good looking structures, but I'm not good at putting in detail work. The first area I'd want to develop is the entrance plaza - its where the nether portal will be, the OW entrance, and the staircase leading to the entrance of the maze. I've got the basic structure planned out in excel - If you're willing and interested, I can mark out the area and basically give you free reign to go nuts and make it look awesome. Eventually I'd like to turn the whole peninsula into a small themed city so there would be a lot more work to follow that I'd love for you and anyone else interested to help with when/if I get that far. I'm thinking a theme based on the slaver's bay cities in Song of Ice and Fire (meereen, yunkaii, astapor) - nothing strictly following the canon, just that style. Thought it would go nice with the desert and stepped pyramid. what do you think?