NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[geists]

What kept you off the major wagons day 2?

Just didn't feel like voting any of them until the SC wagon at deadline.

That was day 1.

Mostly the same reason.

Also, I dunno. I feel like the intense drive to solve the game and sort people that I saw in our previous games isn't there.

But...holidays. And large game.

Have you played many large games before?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

KBBQ is correct that you're not putting the level of effort into this game that I saw from you in the three other games we've played.

I have been putting in plenty of effort in a disjointed way at trying to read various players. I have read other games of Pieguyn's, Varsoon's, Tammy's, Sakura's, Generic's, Cephrir's.

What I haven't been doing is to unify all of it to do a POE analysis and solve the game. It is lot harder in a large. The games you've played with me, there were 6, 13, and 9 players respectively. In the 13 player game, I didn't replace in until the end of D1, and didn't start putting in massive effort to solve the game until D3 where there were 9 players. I had quite a few solid townreads D1, and had it been a micro, I would have pegged the scumteam by then. But there is this vast gap of null players and I don't know where to start. And each time I feel I have a solid lead, something else makes me doubt my read - like your points on Sakura, or Tammy's gut about Desperado.

I also haven't adamantly pushed players that I wanted to push - in normal circumstances, I would have pushed SSK/Cephrir harder on D2. I think I am playing with far more players that are better than me than I usually do. I tend to be average or somewhat above average in skill for a regular playerlist. Here I think, I am definitely in the bottom half and reading players is really hard. For instance, I don't even know where to start reading people like zMuffinman, GuyInFreezer, and to some extent Cephrir. I feel their scumgames are way over my head. I also think pushing lynches I want is harder with better players. In the games we played, that wasn't the case. In the Newbie game, it was just me, you, Bert, and JKLM doing most of the talking so I had a lot of influence. In the HP game, there were several people like Toomai, Rach, Amrun, and JacobSavage who really weren't active at all, so I had to step up and take the lead to some extent. In BBMolla's Doctor game, there wasn't anyone I thought was town that had differing reads from me and a much better scumhunter than me. I was very, very certain they were all being stupid/headed on the wrong track with respect to Pitoli and the GF tell so I tried to strongarm a different lynch through. The situation here is really different. It is much more similar to BB:HoH mafia where I sat back and let the Imperium hydra do all the scumhunting. Also, Tammy being killed N1 was demotivating. She was obvtown, easy to work with, and gave serious consideration to all of my reads.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Casso has a chance of being replaced with koreanbbq.

Everyone else is obvtown.

Indulge me please, what made Pieguyn obvtown?

See the thing about Pie is he has posts/points/things that I strongly like and then posts/points/things I really dislike. But then after observing him for a while, it came to me that the things I disliked were more a product of playstyle rather than actual alignment.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

I'm still waiting to hear why SAD flipped on me yesterday for no apparent reason. Or maybe he answered and I forgot.

Yes.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Be back later. I suggest leaving SSK alive as he doesn't need to be lynched until it's actually MYLO/LYLO. Wasting a lynch on him now is pretty pointless, we already know what he will flip. Try someone else that's suspicious so we have more info tomorrow.

Vote: Bert

bert y u so fake

[Bert]

Bert, could you stop? You're preventing me from having any read on you whatsoever right now.

I haven't prevented Ffery or Falcon or Nacho from getting a read on me. Or even SAD and BBQ who scumread me. Why are you an exception?

[Bert]

Bert, I don't understand your desire to lynch yourself over confirmed scum. If there is any reason to not lynch SSK, it is if we feel that we can lynch a different scum but from your POV, you are confirmed town so why vote yourself?

because you all don't know whether I'm town or not. SSK-lynch doesn't give any more info. Another townie dies during the night, and we start from the same place tomorrow.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Bert, I don't understand your desire to lynch yourself over confirmed scum. If there is any reason to not lynch SSK, it is if we feel that we can lynch a different scum but from your POV, you are confirmed town so why vote yourself?

because you all don't know whether I'm town or not. SSK-lynch doesn't give any more info. Another townie dies during the night, and we start from the same place tomorrow.

You are assuming that we can't read you and determine that you are town. Isn't that the whole point of playing mafia?

[geists]

KBBQ is correct that you're not putting the level of effort into this game that I saw from you in the three other games we've played.

I have been putting in plenty of effort in a disjointed way at trying to read various players. I have read other games of Pieguyn's, Varsoon's, Tammy's, Sakura's, Generic's, Cephrir's.

What I haven't been doing is to unify all of it to do a POE analysis and solve the game. It is lot harder in a large. The games you've played with me, there were 6, 13, and 9 players respectively. In the 13 player game, I didn't replace in until the end of D1, and didn't start putting in massive effort to solve the game until D3 where there were 9 players. I had quite a few solid townreads D1, and had it been a micro, I would have pegged the scumteam by then. But there is this vast gap of null players and I don't know where to start. And each time I feel I have a solid lead, something else makes me doubt my read - like your points on Sakura, or Tammy's gut about Desperado.

I also haven't adamantly pushed players that I wanted to push - in normal circumstances, I would have pushed SSK/Cephrir harder on D2. I think I am playing with far more players that are better than me than I usually do. I tend to be average or somewhat above average in skill for a regular playerlist. Here I think, I am definitely in the bottom half and reading players is really hard. For instance, I don't even know where to start reading people like zMuffinman, GuyInFreezer, and to some extent Cephrir. I feel their scumgames are way over my head. I also think pushing lynches I want is harder with better players. In the games we played, that wasn't the case. In the Newbie game, it was just me, you, Bert, and JKLM doing most of the talking so I had a lot of influence. In the HP game, there were several people like Toomai, Rach, Amrun, and JacobSavage who really weren't active at all, so I had to step up and take the lead to some extent. In BBMolla's Doctor game, there wasn't anyone I thought was town that had differing reads from me and a much better scumhunter than me. I was very, very certain they were all being stupid/headed on the wrong track with respect to Pitoli and the GF tell so I tried to strongarm a different lynch through. The situation here is really different. It is much more similar to BB:HoH mafia where I sat back and let the Imperium hydra do all the scumhunting. Also, Tammy being killed N1 was demotivating. She was obvtown, easy to work with, and gave serious consideration to all of my reads.

Ok.

It doesn't always work because scum often get brought into the fold, but a true, functioning townbloc in a large game starts with sometimes just 2 or 3 players who are confident of each others' alignment. And they work outward from there into an eventual web of mutual townreads and expands to reads of players you trust are town and think can read some of the outliers better than you can. And what's left is mostly scum. Mostly, but not all. And it's key to bring in solid town reads - and I mean solid townreads - faster than the townbloc is being decimated by night kills.

Sounds easy. Sometimes is easy. Sometimes is impossible.

I think we can do something like that in this game.

[Cephrir]

Bert, could you stop? You're preventing me from having any read on you whatsoever right now.

I haven't prevented Ffery or Falcon or Nacho from getting a read on me. Or even SAD and BBQ who scumread me. Why are you an exception?

I've been townreading you but you keep doing these weird little things to shoot yourself in the foot that you didn't do in the other game. It's weird.

[Cephrir]

Well that was redundant. But you get the idea. I keep wanting to call you twon but you're making it difficult.

[Bert]

Sure, Ceph...

You're saying the type of things Ffery said in 1436, that's why you were on my radar on D2 here.

[Cephrir]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Ok.

It doesn't always work because scum often get brought into the fold, but a true, functioning townbloc in a large game starts with sometimes just 2 or 3 players who are confident of each others' alignment. And they work outward from there into an eventual web of mutual townreads and expands to reads of players you trust are town and think can read some of the outliers better than you can. And what's left is mostly scum. Mostly, but not all. And it's key to bring in solid town reads - and I mean solid townreads - faster than the townbloc is being decimated by night kills.

Sounds easy. Sometimes is easy. Sometimes is impossible.

I think we can do something like that in this game.

Okay. Based on roles, we know that you, MC Maraca, and Goodmorning are town. That's a good starting point. I am very confident Generic is town and I don't think anyone disagrees. That's 4 people I have in my townbloc. I'll shelve suspicion of Casso and KBBQ assuming you can read them well and think they are town. MafiaSSK is confscum and we are lynching him today.

That still leaves 8 more players: Pieguyn, Bert, Sakura, BRO, Norlkaz, SAD, zMuffin, and Cephrir.

I think Pieguyn is town and I'll wait to hear your thoughts after you finish sorting him.

I think Bert is town. I actually feel that his self-vote point more in the direction of him being town. Bert thinks I am a pretty good player. He also looks up to you and Nacho a lot. I highly doubt Bert would want to give up in a game where he is scum and we're all townreading him. I think he would be more excited and spend more time trying to manipulate everyone than just fading out if he was scum. As town on the other hand, getting townread by people that know his meta is no big deal. But, the self-vote bugged me. It makes zero sense to self-vote when a confirmed scum lynch is already on the table and plenty of people townreading him. But I also don't see the scum motivation. If he is scum, he's playing pretty well now getting all those townreads. What are your thoughts about that?

I'm still waiting for Sakura to talk about her read on you based on past experience.

I think BRO, Cephrir, SAD, zMuffin, Norlkaz and maybe Sakura are the ones likely to be scum.

[BROseidon]

f-16 you're forgetting that Bert puts in less effort as scum b/c of personal reasons.

[geists]

f-16 you're forgetting that Bert puts in less effort as scum b/c of personal reasons.

Explain how this works? Examples?

Because Mala's Castle Mini game is calling you and wants to talk about bert's "less effort as scum".

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I haven't noticed that. As far as I know, Bert doesn't seem to prefer one alignment over the other and puts in equal effort. I assume you are talking about the game you modded. I read through the scum QT and don't recall anything there. I'll check again.

[KoreanBBQ]

Oh God, Bert is doing the same crap that Hana did in FEA.

[Bert]

Oh God, Bert is doing the same crap that Hana did in FEA.

What's FEA

[Bert]

f-16 you're forgetting that Bert puts in less effort as scum b/c of personal reasons.

I lol'd at this, because your game was an aberration, and I've had apathetic games as town too. You obviously haven't seen like my 10 scumgames prior to that if you think I "put in less effort consistently."

[KoreanBBQ]

I've done some reading. I agree SSK is today's lynch. I still want Casso and Cephrir dead.

Today, my task is going to be over figuring out that messy pile of people I don't really know about.

P-EDIT

CASSO NO ES TOWN

STAHP

Would scum-Casso suggest a flashlynch on his buddy near the deadline?

Yes, marketplace mafia for an example.

Could you remind me of who 'cause I really don't count DP and I don't consider me and I was p much the defacto lynch at that point.

[KoreanBBQ]

Oh God, Bert is doing the same crap that Hana did in FEA.

What's FEA

Fire Emblem: Awakening but why does it matter and shouldn't it have been obvious I was referring to a mafia game?

[Bert]

Fire Emblem: Awakening but why does it matter and shouldn't it have been obvious I was referring to a mafia game?

If you're going to make a reference, it's nice so some people don't feel left out.

Explain how that's relevant and what Hanasawa did there? And what alignment was he

Are you Nero?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, what is the reason you are playing differently here than in Anything Goes where you were much more involved in figuring out the scum?

[Casso the King of Seals]

This reads as so manipulative. You CANNOT be so certain that Nacho is town that you are willing to get lynched in his place. Nacho is a good scum player. There will always be uncertainty and paranoia. Even ffery who can read him like a book isn't certain of his affiliation.

I did the same before, why didn't you question it, yet you question Cephrir's motives?

You are not him.

I don't think that Cephrir as scum would be so hamfisted. His buddying to me in ASOIAF was a hell of a lot more subtle; it started out with him townreading me when I first began pouring effort into the game, then a slow build up of faked paranoia that he kept retracting when i continued not to get weird on him. I also haven't seen Cephrir make any dramatic loud gambits in his play as scum; he usually just plays a very solid day game and leaves it at that.

I also don't think scum tend to save town players who are close to death; it was the type of post I always expect to come when I'm getting lynched and don't deserve it at all, but never comes because scum is stepping back and letting it happen (the latest crosstown and the Vi lynch is the clearest memory, but Hard Boiled where I let NS get lynches is a pretty great example too). He also took a real risk if scum there; there was a lot of antiCephrir sentiments coming up and a few bad knee jerk responses could have made a dead Cephrir very very easily.

The confidence of it does bother me, but do you really think Cephrir as scum would go that deep to save me?