Hydras in mini normals

[Alduskkel]

"Normal" is completely arbitrary in that it is based only on what the community expects/considers standard. Breaking or not breaking the normal rules means nothing because the rules can always be altered to whatever the people want them to be. For example, the only reason that Cults aren't normal isn't that they go against the normal rules, it's because the community has decided that Cults generally suck and should pretty much only be seen in specialized games.

Does the community at large think that

hydras

generally suck and should pretty much only be seen in specialized games? Probably not, but there's room for debate, hence this thread.

Perhaps a poll is in order? Although, you'd only be polling people who visit MD, so there would be some bias. (I would guess it would be against hydras.) The mods could make it a global announcement, but that's purely up to them.

[sirdanilot]

I do not mod anymore, but to be honest I would NEVER allow hydras in ANY game unless the game was specifically geared towards them (perhaps a hydra-only game). Hydras were not a thing back when I played a lot, oh how I miss those days.

Weirdly enough, I'm pretty sure Adel bears a lot of responsibility for the current state of hydrae being 'a thing'.

And if any old user is prone to debate and discussion it's Adel, haha.

I think that a good starter would be to inform the mods (probably through a site announcement) that it's okay for them to ban hydras from their games if they wish. I think most mods just see hydras as 'a thing' nowadays and don't really consider banning them; they have become something that's 'just there'.

[RichardGHP]

Plenty of mods can and do already ban hydrae.

[Plum]

This thread inspired me to exclude hydrae from my in-signups Large Theme (/shameless self-promotion). Even before that, however, I developed a policy that by which I was likely to limit hydrae in my games and required explicit Moderator approval during signups, if I recall correctly.

[Jake from State Farm]

Hydras in mini normals should be banned cause a hydra isn't normal.

What normal rules does a hydra break?

The normal que is supposed to be where people go to play a normal game right? No crazy setups/fancy tricks/etc right?

More than 1 player taking up 1 slot usually causing confusion because they talk to each other in thread and often disagree with reads isn't normal to me. I especially love when 1 hydra head is unavailable and the other head won't do anything without conferring with the absent head. Is that normal?
Not to me. If I want to play without a hydra I have to either play a newbie game (no thanks) or keep /in to a normal game hoping to come across a mod who doesn't allow them or hoping one doesn't / in.

Also not knowing who I'm playing against (secret hydras) also hampers the ability to play cause I use meta sometimes to provide evidence a person is lying/ playing differently.

It's not normal.

[Zachrulez]

My current moderator policy is banning hydras in mini, micro, and large normal games and permitting them in themes/opens (depending on whether the open is "normal" or not I guess.)

[Tierce]

"Normal" is completely arbitrary in that it is based only on what the community expects/considers standard. Breaking or not breaking the normal rules means nothing because the rules can always be altered to whatever the people want them to be. For example, the only reason that Cults aren't normal isn't that they go against the normal rules, it's because the community has decided that Cults generally suck and should pretty much only be seen in specialized games.

Does the community at large think that

hydras

generally suck and should pretty much only be seen in specialized games? Probably not, but there's room for debate, hence this thread.

Perhaps a poll is in order? Although, you'd only be polling people who visit MD, so there would be some bias. (I would guess it would be against hydras.) The mods could make it a global announcement, but that's purely up to them.

If you'll excuse me, this isn't true.

mith, the list mods (particularly me) and the Normal Review Group are the ones who define what is and isn't Normal. The community decides what is commonly seen in any game, regardless of Normalcy, and they

can

affect decisions on what is Normal (either explicitly or implicitly, by changing trends in games), but they don't have direct input on the Normalcy rules as they stand.

[N]

Hydras in mini normals should be banned cause a hydra isn't normal.

What normal rules does a hydra break?

The normal que is supposed to be where people go to play a normal game right? No crazy setups/fancy tricks/etc right?

More than 1 player taking up 1 slot usually causing confusion because they talk to each other in thread and often disagree with reads isn't normal to me. I especially love when 1 hydra head is unavailable and the other head won't do anything without conferring with the absent head. Is that normal?
Not to me. If I want to play without a hydra I have to either play a newbie game (no thanks) or keep /in to a normal game hoping to come across a mod who doesn't allow them or hoping one doesn't / in.

Also not knowing who I'm playing against (secret hydras) also hampers the ability to play cause I use meta sometimes to provide evidence a person is lying/ playing differently.

It's not normal.

So what you're saying is the normal queue should police play styles?

[Mr. Flay]

Hydra'ing is a bit more than a 'play style'. Let's not be disingenuous here.

Two brains in one 'body' is, or was, abNormal.

[Jake from State Farm]

^ that

[Alduskkel]

If you'll excuse me, this isn't true.

mith, the list mods (particularly me) and the Normal Review Group are the ones who define what is and isn't Normal. The community decides what is commonly seen in any game, regardless of Normalcy, and they can affect decisions on what is Normal (either explicitly or implicitly, by changing trends in games), but they don't have direct input on the Normalcy rules as they stand.

Sorry, I guess I didn't know what I was talking about, probably because there doesn't seem to be much difference between what the list mods say is Normal and what the community thinks is Normal. (Which is a good thing.)

So what is the stance of the list mods? Is there a bunch of discussion going on behind closed doors or something?

[Zachrulez]

"Normal" is completely arbitrary in that it is based only on what the community expects/considers standard. Breaking or not breaking the normal rules means nothing because the rules can always be altered to whatever the people want them to be. For example, the only reason that Cults aren't normal isn't that they go against the normal rules, it's because the community has decided that Cults generally suck and should pretty much only be seen in specialized games.

Does the community at large think that

hydras

generally suck and should pretty much only be seen in specialized games? Probably not, but there's room for debate, hence this thread.

Perhaps a poll is in order? Although, you'd only be polling people who visit MD, so there would be some bias. (I would guess it would be against hydras.) The mods could make it a global announcement, but that's purely up to them.

I would have created a poll for this thread had I thought to at the time. I don't think it would get a good sample editing one in now.

[Tierce]

So what is the stance of the list mods? Is there a bunch of discussion going on behind closed doors or something?

On this? Not really. I far prefer to leave it up to mod choice and, failing that, chronological sign-ups.

[N]

Hydra'ing is a bit more than a 'play style'. Let's not be disingenuous here.

Two brains in one 'body' is, or was, abNormal.

Jake's argument is that he doesn't like hydras because some people use them in a certain way. Sounds like play style to me.

[Mr. Flay]

Uhhh, no. Jake is saying that there are actual factors of hydra existence that affect the game. Even if a hydra played PERFECTLY, some of those factors would still be present, because it's not all about play style, it's about having two heads in one role.

[Magua]

I think y'all are reading way too much into someone who used the term "legalized cheating."

[Jake from State Farm]

I think y'all are reading way too much into someone who used the term "legalized cheating."

If I talk to someone else on the site about a game I am playing and I bouce ideas off him/her that is considered cheating right?

a hydra allows the exact same scenario to happen but it's not cheating. It also gives an unfair advantage to that slot cause 2 heads are scumhunting together in 1 slot.

[Magua]

You can dislike hydras all you wish.

That doesn't mean you get to redefine words or ignore logic.

[Jake from State Farm]

I'm entitled to my own opinion and since I have yet to see anyone provide sound logic behind hydras, I can ignore it

I hydra'd once and had I played by myself the outcome definitely would have been different, that put scum at a disadvantage.

[Cheery Dog]

I'm entitled to my own opinion and since I have yet to see anyone provide sound logic behind hydras, I can ignore it

I hydra'd once and had I played by myself the outcome definitely would have been different, that put scum at a disadvantage.

But my hydra possibly put scum at an advantage day 1. (in that we didn't counterclaim)

[kuribo]

Make it a (loosely enforced) rule that 50% of normals be hydra-free, in the same way my Princetonian overlords ensure that only a third of all grades are As?

There is no way I am enforcing a rule that forces some moderators to act in a certain way because others acted in a different way. That makes no sense and it seems much healthier to leave it up to moderator choice. Some welcome hydrae, others do not. It is not up to me to enforce a percentage choice.

Not to mention, suppose a hydra wants to replace into a slot that is having a hard time filling?

Like, suppose you have a 150 page game and fuck replacing into THAT mess because who the hell wants to read all of that? So here comes two people with a hydra but you have to tell them they can't replace in because 50% of the game is already hydras.

[Psyche]

loosely enforced

[Faraday]

I hydra'd once and had I played by myself the outcome definitely would have been different, that put scum at a disadvantage.

Yep! The players who sign up for a game may impact the end result, glad we've established that. Hard hitting stuff, here.

[The Purple Plague]

I hydra'd once and had I played by myself the outcome definitely would have been different, that put scum at a disadvantage.

Because there aren't any other factors that change the outcome of stuff like this, as well

[Ms Marangal]

That was me if anyone wants to know!

I'm not gonna lie and say that my play, across all my accounts are the same, and that doing one game as X account would have been different if I used something else but that isn't any different from me being in a bad mood and letting that have a little to much of an influence in a game nor is it any different from me having not enough time as I would want for a game, nor is it any different from playing a game from a phone or a computer. there are alot of things that can affect the outcome of a game, and yes Hydrae are oneof them and alot of these things are also able to put scum at a disadvantage.

furthermore, being scum as a hydra makes things town a hellofalot easier (theoretiecally speaking). Scum and town hydra don't play the same, and after a while it is possible to tell the difference between a scum and town-hydrae. it is possible to tell the difference between scum dissonance and town dissonance, but that also isn't to far off as meta'ing a single person or making general tells based on what you expect scum to do and what you expect town to do.