NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[MC Maraca]

and this head comes back to life

I guess

I'm behind roughly 10 pages

someone tell me what happened

what I should do

and why godtown and Doc Claim have the two biggest wagons

someone tell me why Desp wagon hasn't gone off

someone explain Pie town, because I don't see it

anndd....

I think that's it

[Cephrir]

I am suddenly getting paranoid about SSK being town (and Nacho still being town) in part because Domo is making a little sense but also because Norlkaz is (surprisingly?) making some sense. I'm not sure that I want to do this anymore. Someone please talk me back into it.

what the fuck
you think he's making some sense although you agree his case is p much entirely fakeable? explain plz

Nacho's perspective on SSK's claimed actions makes sense. What scumteam coaches him to claim he didn't protect the masons?

[Cephrir]

Oh, and Pie I haven't forgotten your question. I am just not confident enough about Arthur-town at this point to defend him. I want him to explain a few things as well and see how it goes.

What is your read on Cephrir? Can you explain it?

Literally cannot tell you how infuriating this style of rabblerousing is. Every time someone asks anyone else "what is your read on cephrir" I want to fucking strangle them.

[Bert]

How do you all manage 195 pages?

[Bert]

I don't get anything but the vaguest impressions by following the game

[Cephrir]

I don't get anything but the vaguest impressions by following the game

Me neither bro. It's okay.

[Bert]

I'm gonna do what I can but people going after me is like trying to distract from the main wagons

I haven't made a meaningful post since the first five days I was here.

[Bert]

And even then I just skimmed isos and generalized the vibe I get.

[MafiaSSK]

and this head comes back to life

I guess

I'm behind roughly 10 pages

someone tell me what happened

what I should do

and why godtown and Doc Claim have the two biggest wagons

someone tell me why Desp wagon hasn't gone off

someone explain Pie town, because I don't see it

anndd....

I think that's it

Mind explaining why you see Desp as scum?

[MafiaSSK]

I also still want you to talk about this. If you want context, here's a little:

I'm not talking about that for a reason. You've surely been mislynched with scum on your wagon, showing me that it can be all town means nothing other than it can happen, which I already knew.

I figure SSK is town if you are because he is easier to lynch than you are. I suspect the only reason SSK is not already dead is because I objected so strongly.

He's probably easier to lynch than I am because I contribute things and he doesn't, not because of anything that has to do with our specific alignments.

Hey, I totally contribute some things some times.

[MafiaSSK]

Well that was the point I was making earlier. For casso to considered town, we have to assume SSK is town. But if SSK is town, where the fuck is he? He's an outed doc, he should be towning it up as hard as he can before getting killed, exactly like I'm doing. SSK is very likely to be scum, and the fact that SSK seems easier to lynch than casso suggests to me that casso is also scum.

Does anyone understand where I'm coming from yet? It seems so simple to me.

No. This game is literally moving 5 pages a day. Too much content. I post when I feel like it.

[MafiaSSK]

As I'm going through these recent pages, it bothers me that most of the recent accusations are so baseless.

[MafiaSSK]

naw, changed my mind SSK can die. But I want Bert blood today.

'
See, like this is an example of what I was talking about. But geists did it too in an earlier posts, when they were like "I think Sakura is scum on the wagon."

Anywho, that's been happening a lot and it's been bothering me.

[MafiaSSK]

I'm also not seeing at all where the Casso wagon is coming from. Could someone explain?

[Generic]

TOWN ANGELS:
Geists - Gunsmith innocent is a pretty solid reason, but even if you don't buy that, there's an extraordinarily transparent and incredibly hard to fake thought process going from the start of the game to now. Her attack on me for my early focus and strange focus on Brian definitely seemed like too "creative" an angle to take if she was trying to sort me out as scum; I would expect the fallback attack for Nacho paranoia from ffery-scum would end up looking something like "you're reading me wrong" or "you're not sorting me". I thought the harsh blowback against F-16 for his initial read of geists was very, very townish; ffery-scum's first reaction to a townread she isn't expecting is "holy shit, how is this happening"; I have trouble seeing her evolve from this to attacking people townreading her for weak reasons so quickly. Later in the game, the way she approaches not having many strong scumreads is very genuine, reaction to pieguyn initial vote on me after Sakura stuff is kneejerk and very town, a few exchanges with scumreads such as Desperado are very town. A hydra primarily guided by ffery having 500 posts on Day 2 is also a great sign.

Goodmorning/Maraca - I will admit that Cabd attaching to a weak player and claiming masons with them when they would be lynched any other way is something that gives me paranoid fits at times, but I'm still very satisfied with both slots being town on an individual basis before even considering the mason claim (although goodmorning not as town as Maraca, obviously). Goodmorning's townpoints are mostly for so consistently going after impossible targets (me, Muffin) that won't be getting lynched for a very very long time. If she really were scum, she could be a hell of a lot opportunistic than she's been but instead she's been playing with the big boys. Meanwhile, Mara has had some town as hell moments: her frustration seems more genuine than it did the last game I played scum with her.

F-16 - I thought the initial deal with me was pretty townish; there's no good reason for F-16 to promise not to kill me immediately in a game like this as scum, but convincing Nacho-scum to leave him alive makes sense for F-16 town. His paranoia about the deal later in the game (when he expressed plenty of regret, mentions making a "deal with the devil") also seem like unlikely F-16 scum things to do, and showing flashes of paranoia around me in spite of the deal (thus opening the door for me to have paranoia flashes about him) seem like something he would avoid doing as scum, considering it throws all benefit he got from the deal in the first place out of the window. His reasoning for townreading ffery early on was pretty solid (attacking me), his efforts to sort me out through ffery's read on me is wonderfully town, etc. etc. Series of posts starting at 3608 are the more in depth towncase, don't feel any less confident about this read now than I did then.

Sakura Hana - I won't talk about her play before my big push on her since I think everything she posted there is fakeable from Sakura-scum, if not outright scummy. But, I thought that the way she responded to getting wagonned (namely the whole "I have no respect for any of you after this", "what a fitting end; hurry up and lynch me so I never come back to MS again" bits) was town as hell for blacklist tell reasons (explained 3718). I can see her being frustrated at being lynched for no reason as scum, sure, but I can't see it turning into what it ended up evolving into when Sakura was speedwagonned. I thought the exchange we had over Sakura's townread on Cabd "maybe I had reasons, maybe I didn't" to "yeah, it was reaction test" made Sakura look fairly genuine, and the vote she currently has down actually seems like a pretty solid vote.

KoreanBBQ - I generally liked what GiF was doing early, followed him fairly easily. Early comment on him from QT is:
I think if you were attempting to put a vote on someone that isn't goodmorning for "not doing stuff", you have better candidates. GiF made an early exchange in reading ffery (#217), which has a few meta implications (both move awkwardly around each other when finding things that they don't like in the other, GiF is more suspicious of ffery than the rest of the meta crew but usually can't pick out what specific posts would bother town-him as scum. Ffery is less suspicious of GiF than the rest of the meta crew, but usually townreads him too easily as scum). GiF also talked of a conditional scumread on Stuffed Crust based on who was posting; there was an assumption that it was mostly Varsoon talking but GiF refuted that and pointed out that his play was gross for town-Varsoon. There was an attack on pieguyn earlier where he attacked him for being awkward around Sakura (another meta entanglement), he's generally making pushes now and playing fine. I thought that his "I'm satisfied with my posting this game and I never say that" statement was pretty genuine, as was his explanation of his total play in #2340. Nero is more active and involved than I remember him early game in Marketplace (and a few of his votes like YES I CAN FINALLY VOTE HANA seem like genuine Nerotown, as does his exchange with Mara for her late townreading him), GiF-Nacho sync was pretty cool and also unlikely to be coming from GiF-scum unless he's gotten amazing at predicting momentum ahead of time. Crowning move of towniness was #3743, which, if coming from scum, would require GiF to fight for a mislynch for a majority of the game, be in the perfect position to seize it, and then instead throw his hands up and go "fuck it". I can see where his frustration as town is coming from, and I thought giving the readslist as if he expected to get lynched afterwards and the "fuck you" comment about people not being able to say that he's not doing anything anymore is consistent with his #2340 and pretty genuinely town. I agree with ffery about Christmas miracles, and in response to Xenologue Cabd I will say this: GiF's read on the slot was primarily based on Mac, which he was decently loud about. He also didn't start pushing the slot with conviction until very, very late, which also made it seem genuine to me.

DOMO - Gunsmith claim, will sort himself out. A couple of paranoid flashes look pretty town, and claim this early with nothing relevant would be suicide for DOMO-scum down the road when he could be someone who could go deep, regardless of partners.

Bert - I think that his pieces of concern with me (wondering why I'm criticizing someone who mostly goes after lurkers based on Chosen Mafia, Hard Boiled, coming up with Nacho/ffery scumteam guesses, the "Nacho should be more charismatic and more widely townread by now" theory, then later paranoia push on geists based on gut... all of it seems like he's dealing with a variety of possibilities very quickly, and dealing with genuine paranoia; I haven't seen a Bert scumgame where he's so seamlessly went from player to player to player to player. His aggressiveness in making me see Sakura-town and embrace of the "blacklist tell" reminds me of Shoe in Wingate. He comes across as so much more genuine in his scumgames elsewhere, despite this being a large game that's pretty ridiculous and hard to keep up with.

Getting tired, but this is the townblock for now. I haven't read through Generic/Cephrir/Pie yet and I'm sure at least one of these three will make their way into the townblock. I feel very confident about this group, though (my weakest read is Bert, which should say something in and of itself).

TOWN ANGELS:

Pieguyn - A couple observations I have from the scumgames that I skimmed is that pie :effort: level here is very impressive compared to his :effort: level elsewhere, and his pushes on players here seem much more thorough than they did in any of his other scumgames. Early townread on goodmorning is a bit strange (as in I don't see the basis of it whatsoever), especially since it's one of the pie's top tier townreads; he didn't have any weird townreads like this in Marketplace. I agree with him that the strong tilt against our slot is something unlikely to come from Pieguyn-scum, and his theories of various scumteams sometimes get a little conspiracy theory but they seem very genuine (see: Casso-Cephrir team based on timing, Casso-Sakura team based on D1 and how he got people to talk about the Casso-Sakura possibility after he thought of it); they all seem like unlikely angles for scumpieguyn to push so fervently, especially when he hasn't demonstrated the ability to fervently push easier targets in the past. I also like a lot of his "I expect you would pick on on this" language, seems fairly genuine. The big thing is how absolutely out of his mind he would have to be playing in order to be scum right now, which is why I'm upgrading him at the moment.

ANGELS IN WAITING:

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum. A couple of his sentiments also come off as really really genuine based on his perception of his town play "to be honest, it's probably a towntell to suspect me right now", "Nacho, I know you're good at reading me but there are others here who are good at reading me who are scumreading me". I liked his reading of DOMO early, and I generally liked his response to being wagonned (voting me for being aggressive, probably town + post before V/LA). He does have the scumrir tone when talking to or about SC, but he lacks it everywhere else so that's a good sign.

Generic - What I like most about Generic is how all over the place he's been this game; I agree with people who have pointed out that he seems more helpful, more "pro-town" as scum. #452 is an example of him being more of a loose cannon (taking a break because being mad at Mara pretty much immediately), as is his exchange with me over how he's treating Mara ("oh, are you trying to get me to tunnel her?") and his rant about people making him explain things early and ruining everything that he's attempting to do in the game. I liked his response to me when he did form his townread on Mara; he was extremely smug about it and had a whole "this is how it's done" air about him which reminds me strongly of his towngame (one of the things that pulled me off him eventually in We the Purple is how damn smug he sounded). I also thought that the series of posts where he says he's trying to be less emotive this game to fight with DOMO later was pretty damn town; he gave the excuses for why he wouldn't be as fiery as his usual town game and then commenced being as fiery as his usual towngame. I also thought that choosing to make his big push on the PR type gives him town brownie points; more likely Generic would spot the softclaiming and kill it during the night as opposed to make a full charge at it.

I feel much more comfortable upgrading pieguyn than I do the other two simply because pie's scumgame has a much smaller range than the other two have, and I simply can't see pie going from two games where generally he got scared to drive his pushes through pretty quickly and never came close to hitting the genuine notes he's hitting here to his play in this game. Even based on his push on Sakura alone here compared to Touhou uPick is town town town.

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

TOWN ANGELS:
Geists - Gunsmith innocent is a pretty solid reason, but even if you don't buy that, there's an extraordinarily transparent and incredibly hard to fake thought process going from the start of the game to now. Her attack on me for my early focus and strange focus on Brian definitely seemed like too "creative" an angle to take if she was trying to sort me out as scum; I would expect the fallback attack for Nacho paranoia from ffery-scum would end up looking something like "you're reading me wrong" or "you're not sorting me". I thought the harsh blowback against F-16 for his initial read of geists was very, very townish; ffery-scum's first reaction to a townread she isn't expecting is "holy shit, how is this happening"; I have trouble seeing her evolve from this to attacking people townreading her for weak reasons so quickly. Later in the game, the way she approaches not having many strong scumreads is very genuine, reaction to pieguyn initial vote on me after Sakura stuff is kneejerk and very town, a few exchanges with scumreads such as Desperado are very town. A hydra primarily guided by ffery having 500 posts on Day 2 is also a great sign.

Goodmorning/Maraca - I will admit that Cabd attaching to a weak player and claiming masons with them when they would be lynched any other way is something that gives me paranoid fits at times, but I'm still very satisfied with both slots being town on an individual basis before even considering the mason claim (although goodmorning not as town as Maraca, obviously). Goodmorning's townpoints are mostly for so consistently going after impossible targets (me, Muffin) that won't be getting lynched for a very very long time. If she really were scum, she could be a hell of a lot opportunistic than she's been but instead she's been playing with the big boys. Meanwhile, Mara has had some town as hell moments: her frustration seems more genuine than it did the last game I played scum with her.

F-16 - I thought the initial deal with me was pretty townish; there's no good reason for F-16 to promise not to kill me immediately in a game like this as scum, but convincing Nacho-scum to leave him alive makes sense for F-16 town. His paranoia about the deal later in the game (when he expressed plenty of regret, mentions making a "deal with the devil") also seem like unlikely F-16 scum things to do, and showing flashes of paranoia around me in spite of the deal (thus opening the door for me to have paranoia flashes about him) seem like something he would avoid doing as scum, considering it throws all benefit he got from the deal in the first place out of the window. His reasoning for townreading ffery early on was pretty solid (attacking me), his efforts to sort me out through ffery's read on me is wonderfully town, etc. etc. Series of posts starting at 3608 are the more in depth towncase, don't feel any less confident about this read now than I did then.

Sakura Hana - I won't talk about her play before my big push on her since I think everything she posted there is fakeable from Sakura-scum, if not outright scummy. But, I thought that the way she responded to getting wagonned (namely the whole "I have no respect for any of you after this", "what a fitting end; hurry up and lynch me so I never come back to MS again" bits) was town as hell for blacklist tell reasons (explained 3718). I can see her being frustrated at being lynched for no reason as scum, sure, but I can't see it turning into what it ended up evolving into when Sakura was speedwagonned. I thought the exchange we had over Sakura's townread on Cabd "maybe I had reasons, maybe I didn't" to "yeah, it was reaction test" made Sakura look fairly genuine, and the vote she currently has down actually seems like a pretty solid vote.

KoreanBBQ - I generally liked what GiF was doing early, followed him fairly easily. Early comment on him from QT is:
I think if you were attempting to put a vote on someone that isn't goodmorning for "not doing stuff", you have better candidates. GiF made an early exchange in reading ffery (#217), which has a few meta implications (both move awkwardly around each other when finding things that they don't like in the other, GiF is more suspicious of ffery than the rest of the meta crew but usually can't pick out what specific posts would bother town-him as scum. Ffery is less suspicious of GiF than the rest of the meta crew, but usually townreads him too easily as scum). GiF also talked of a conditional scumread on Stuffed Crust based on who was posting; there was an assumption that it was mostly Varsoon talking but GiF refuted that and pointed out that his play was gross for town-Varsoon. There was an attack on pieguyn earlier where he attacked him for being awkward around Sakura (another meta entanglement), he's generally making pushes now and playing fine. I thought that his "I'm satisfied with my posting this game and I never say that" statement was pretty genuine, as was his explanation of his total play in #2340. Nero is more active and involved than I remember him early game in Marketplace (and a few of his votes like YES I CAN FINALLY VOTE HANA seem like genuine Nerotown, as does his exchange with Mara for her late townreading him), GiF-Nacho sync was pretty cool and also unlikely to be coming from GiF-scum unless he's gotten amazing at predicting momentum ahead of time. Crowning move of towniness was #3743, which, if coming from scum, would require GiF to fight for a mislynch for a majority of the game, be in the perfect position to seize it, and then instead throw his hands up and go "fuck it". I can see where his frustration as town is coming from, and I thought giving the readslist as if he expected to get lynched afterwards and the "fuck you" comment about people not being able to say that he's not doing anything anymore is consistent with his #2340 and pretty genuinely town. I agree with ffery about Christmas miracles, and in response to Xenologue Cabd I will say this: GiF's read on the slot was primarily based on Mac, which he was decently loud about. He also didn't start pushing the slot with conviction until very, very late, which also made it seem genuine to me.

DOMO - Gunsmith claim, will sort himself out. A couple of paranoid flashes look pretty town, and claim this early with nothing relevant would be suicide for DOMO-scum down the road when he could be someone who could go deep, regardless of partners.

Bert - I think that his pieces of concern with me (wondering why I'm criticizing someone who mostly goes after lurkers based on Chosen Mafia, Hard Boiled, coming up with Nacho/ffery scumteam guesses, the "Nacho should be more charismatic and more widely townread by now" theory, then later paranoia push on geists based on gut... all of it seems like he's dealing with a variety of possibilities very quickly, and dealing with genuine paranoia; I haven't seen a Bert scumgame where he's so seamlessly went from player to player to player to player. His aggressiveness in making me see Sakura-town and embrace of the "blacklist tell" reminds me of Shoe in Wingate. He comes across as so much more genuine in his scumgames elsewhere, despite this being a large game that's pretty ridiculous and hard to keep up with.

Getting tired, but this is the townblock for now. I haven't read through Generic/Cephrir/Pie yet and I'm sure at least one of these three will make their way into the townblock. I feel very confident about this group, though (my weakest read is Bert, which should say something in and of itself).

TOWN ANGELS:

Pieguyn - A couple observations I have from the scumgames that I skimmed is that pie :effort: level here is very impressive compared to his :effort: level elsewhere, and his pushes on players here seem much more thorough than they did in any of his other scumgames. Early townread on goodmorning is a bit strange (as in I don't see the basis of it whatsoever), especially since it's one of the pie's top tier townreads; he didn't have any weird townreads like this in Marketplace. I agree with him that the strong tilt against our slot is something unlikely to come from Pieguyn-scum, and his theories of various scumteams sometimes get a little conspiracy theory but they seem very genuine (see: Casso-Cephrir team based on timing, Casso-Sakura team based on D1 and how he got people to talk about the Casso-Sakura possibility after he thought of it); they all seem like unlikely angles for scumpieguyn to push so fervently, especially when he hasn't demonstrated the ability to fervently push easier targets in the past. I also like a lot of his "I expect you would pick on on this" language, seems fairly genuine. The big thing is how absolutely out of his mind he would have to be playing in order to be scum right now, which is why I'm upgrading him at the moment.

ANGELS IN WAITING:

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum. A couple of his sentiments also come off as really really genuine based on his perception of his town play "to be honest, it's probably a towntell to suspect me right now", "Nacho, I know you're good at reading me but there are others here who are good at reading me who are scumreading me". I liked his reading of DOMO early, and I generally liked his response to being wagonned (voting me for being aggressive, probably town + post before V/LA). He does have the scumrir tone when talking to or about SC, but he lacks it everywhere else so that's a good sign.

Generic - What I like most about Generic is how all over the place he's been this game; I agree with people who have pointed out that he seems more helpful, more "pro-town" as scum. #452 is an example of him being more of a loose cannon (taking a break because being mad at Mara pretty much immediately), as is his exchange with me over how he's treating Mara ("oh, are you trying to get me to tunnel her?") and his rant about people making him explain things early and ruining everything that he's attempting to do in the game. I liked his response to me when he did form his townread on Mara; he was extremely smug about it and had a whole "this is how it's done" air about him which reminds me strongly of his towngame (one of the things that pulled me off him eventually in We the Purple is how damn smug he sounded). I also thought that the series of posts where he says he's trying to be less emotive this game to fight with DOMO later was pretty damn town; he gave the excuses for why he wouldn't be as fiery as his usual town game and then commenced being as fiery as his usual towngame. I also thought that choosing to make his big push on the PR type gives him town brownie points; more likely Generic would spot the softclaiming and kill it during the night as opposed to make a full charge at it.

I feel much more comfortable upgrading pieguyn than I do the other two simply because pie's scumgame has a much smaller range than the other two have, and I simply can't see pie going from two games where generally he got scared to drive his pushes through pretty quickly and never came close to hitting the genuine notes he's hitting here to his play in this game. Even based on his push on Sakura alone here compared to Touhou uPick is town town town.

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

My main issues are really with the strong town read on pie and the non town read on bro.

The comment you make about bro not being like either scum game you were with him in should have been the full stop because no offense to bro but he doesn't seem t like the type to get very self aware and meta change.
And pie continues to do things that have me questioning the motives. Only gets aggressive at opportune times, disappears when focus falls on him...

But one thing that has me doubting now is that from a nacho reads list I expect a few curveballs... And you seem to have them and in the places I thought you might have them.

Really the only thing my vote hang on after revising this is why did the SSK wagon suddenly get hot when you were on a two count.

Who is optimal lynch today casso if not you? I mean for good scum find, most information... Etc.

[Generic]

Messed that up. Wanted to put the quotes in spoilers. Sorry for the wall.

[Generic]

Oh, and koreanBBQ as strong town?

Curveballs are one thing, I can't understand the mindfuck you are pulling with that one though.

[pieguyn]

Nacho's perspective on SSK's claimed actions makes sense. What scumteam coaches him to claim he didn't protect the masons?

good point but there's a possibility they might not be coaching him and he came up with that on his own

also I was referring to Norlkaz. you claim he makes sense but agree a lot of his points are fakeable. though looking back I think I misread your post and you were saying that the unfakeable point makes sense. is that correct?

[pieguyn]

Oh, and koreanBBQ as strong town?

Curveballs are one thing, I can't understand the mindfuck you are pulling with that one though.

I also have BBQ as strong town 0.0
what's giving you reservations about him?

[Cephrir]

Nacho's perspective on SSK's claimed actions makes sense. What scumteam coaches him to claim he didn't protect the masons?

good point but there's a possibility they might not be coaching him and he came up with that on his own

also I was referring to Norlkaz. you claim he makes sense but agree a lot of his points are fakeable. though looking back I think I misread your post and you were saying that the unfakeable point makes sense. is that correct?

Yep.

[Generic]

Pie, that's not a ringing endorsement from you.

I don't trust you altogether, much like you KBBQ will post something very town and then go the other way. His current defence on casso now he is lead wagon is a concern.

In fact, several of you have now come out in defence of casso, I have thrown it out there but give me the best alternative. I don't want a town casso lynched but this feels like a scum hydra. But that is not a certainty read because it relies on others being scum...

Fuck this game, I will wait got responses from casso/KBBQ/pie/anyone else defending casso right now.

In fact, f16, I want you to talk to me here, give me what you are seeing from the game state at this moment in time, I want guidance and you have yet to have input with me.

[pieguyn]

sry for confusion, I'm fine with a casso lynch. I still prefer SAD but if not I'd be very ok with casso

I just wanna know if I'm missing smth re: BBQ. GIF has like never been this town ever and his effort level in this game has been way higher than what I'm used to from him, and Nero feels town bc there were some questions he asked and points he made I really liked, although that's kind of gut

thoughts on SAD?

[Generic]

sry for confusion, I'm fine with a casso lynch. I still prefer SAD but if not I'd be very ok with casso

I just wanna know if I'm missing smth re: BBQ. GIF has like never been this town ever and his effort level in this game has been way higher than what I'm used to from him, and Nero feels town bc there were some questions he asked and points he made I really liked, although that's kind of gut

thoughts on SAD?

I can't comment on GIF after spy party where I scum read him snd he dc read me and we were both town.

I have been close to voting SAD a few times but ironically it's when he isn't whining and is being more of a dick about things that I actually think he might be town.

There are people like SSK, casso and bert I trust less than SAD. PoE alone makes him less of a priority but he's not off the table until someone like DOMO clears him or he provides a more compelling set of town posts.

[Generic]

* I can't comment on GIF after spy party where I scum read him and he scum read me and we were both town.

[zMuffinMan]

where are you currently at with SAD?

my read here hasn't really changed

i still think he's more likely town than scum. i don't feel particularly strong about my read here, but i don't want him lynched