NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Cephrir]

hey

hey cephrir

guess what

you waited too long to bus this time

i am coming for you tomorrow

now that i have the time and energy for this game

things are good

good things

hey

hey goodmorning

i don't care what you think

[Cephrir]

I know it doesn't usually pan out this way, but I sincerely hope you're all disappointed in yourselves when you inevitably lynch me. You'll probably justify it to yourselves by saying it's my fault for playing poorly, but in reality it will be your fault for not listening to the players who've actually played a ton of games with me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[goodmorning]

I read through Nacho's reads list in the Perpetual MYLO game and it doesn't seem similar to those reads-lists at all. Nacho's reads morph to fit what is generally accepted to the town. For instance the Bert townread after being questioned on why Bert is an Angel in waiting. The Pieguyn townread after it becomes apparent that he won't be lynched considering I showed in detail that he is playing to his town meta. I also strongly disagree with the Cephrir townread.

Top scumreads in order:
Cephrir
MafiaSSK
Casso

VOTE: Cephrir

nooo

that's tomorrow silly

hey

hey goodmorning

i don't care what you think

hey

hey whoa

i'm cool with that

i appreciate your honesty in that

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why is that scummy or anything but normal?

It is the extreme nature of throughout your posts that I found scummy. You agree with

everything

that matches your position with no paranoia or backtracking or constantly changing reads. I find it more likely that scum will stick to a position and champion everything that agrees with that position.

Also, if you are town and think you are playing badly, then step it up. If you don't have much of a case on Arthur, why are you pushing so vehemently for his lynch? Your push is disproportionate to the strength of your case.

[Bert]

I'm worried about Casso and fear y'all are right and his walls are scumcho

I thought me going from angels in waiting to town angel in a span of one day, when I hadn't posted at all...

Is bull.

/phone

[Bert]

Falcon should lead too. I think he has become super town. More so than anyone else. Sleep time, later.

[pieguyn]

hey F-16 talk to me about this

@F-16:

can you explain which of SAD's posts are giving you townvibes?

bc I just now connected whose lynch SAD was opposed to with SSK's probably scum role, and I think everything makes sense given a SAD + SSK scumteam. SAD was apparently opposed to SSK's lynch bc of the "lack of information". however, then he went and forgot all about getting information from lynches when SC got lynched and he took no interest in looking through the discussion, stances, and wagons on SC on D1 till after I brought it up, and instead immediately contradicted that thought process by saying it was weird how Generic was doing that same thing. when pressured about it he just dodged all my questions and/or deflected

however, if they both are scum, then I deduce that his primary motivation was to try to switch the deadline wagon onto someone else, and so he had to fabricate a reason for not wanting to lynch SSK. thus, his apparent cogdis was a result of the fact that he doesn't actually give a flying fuck about the information gained from a lynch, and was just BS'ing when he said he did. it also makes sense how he dodged me when I asked him about this, when this was my major point against him

[pieguyn]

SER ARTHUR DAYNE

I see you ignoring me. quit it and answer my questions already
4399

[pieguyn]

woops
* 4339

[KoreanBBQ]

I would call f16 super town too if his read on me didn't look fabricated.

[Generic]

I know it doesn't usually pan out this way, but I sincerely hope you're all disappointed in yourselves when you inevitably lynch me. You'll probably justify it to yourselves by saying it's my fault for playing poorly, but in reality it will be your fault for not listening to the players who've actually played a ton of games with me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just popped in briefly to keep up to date with this one, and can I point out that while I don't know cephrirs meta this is such a generic town tell I'm inclined to question the wagon on him.

Read WE THE PURPLE in Coney Island, as part of the generic method I virtually post the same thing at nachotammy.

I prefer the casso wagon right now as I haven't been convinced by nachos play compared to past town games of his I've been in, and Thor seems to just contradict everything nacho posts to cover all the inconsistencies.
Only nagging issue I have is people like mcmaraca and geists being hesitant on the casso wagon... That makes me think I've missed something.

vote withheld until I'm back properly and can read the cases.

[Cephrir]

Why is that scummy or anything but normal?

It is the extreme nature of throughout your posts that I found scummy. You agree with

everything

that matches your position with no paranoia or backtracking or constantly changing reads. I find it more likely that scum will stick to a position and champion everything that agrees with that position.

Also, if you are town and think you are playing badly, then step it up. If you don't have much of a case on Arthur, why are you pushing so vehemently for his lynch? Your push is disproportionate to the strength of your case.

A) pretty sure he's scum
B) really don't want to deal with his BS anymore

Sometimes I get better as games go on (I'm probably never going to catch scum though). I guess we'll see.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Similarities - Muffin lazy in both.
Differences are based mostly on context; in that game, he was replacing into a game with an absolutely massive Day 1, lots of loud obnoxious people floating around, town was already ridiculously town and the slot he replaced into was ridiculously town already. Here, he replaced in fairly early, there weren't so many obnoxious and loud people (just a bunch of loud people), and his slot was at a point where it needed to look town in order to narrow down options more. I will also note he got a hell of a lot more engaged a lot quicker in FEA (122 posts in 12 days there, 52 posts in 15 days here), which doesn't make sense because I can imagine this would be a game he would be more excited to get into.

This is what I dislike most in the recent casso muffin exchange. Casso is building pressure on muffin by comparing his meta to one of his town games, pointing out that as town he was very quick to get involved. Muffin argues this is due to xmas/site probems, and casso argues back that it doesn't seem to have effected anyone else. Well actually it did. Compare my d1 activity to today. The site problems and timing are absolutely the reason I was not thoroughly up to date on d1. Casso using this in a meta argument is pretty horrible. The two situations he's comparing are imo uncomparable, and both nacho and thor should know better. This I think is scum trying to build a mislynch.

My main point remains that he hasn't done anything townish and he has shown himself to get involved quicker in games where he's town. Muffin gives plenty of plausible excuses to why he's not engaged (site problems, Xmas, IRL, ingame noise), and I point out that this really hasn't affected anyone else as much as it has affected him. For example, despite site problems and timing fucking up your engagement with thread, you still have over 200 posts, have voiced many reads and paranoid thoughts and things like that. Muffins managed two reads lists and an exchange with me.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I would call f16 super town too if his read on me didn't look fabricated.

It isn't. I have actually read through one of your scumgames (Newbie 1429) where Bert replaced you and I replaced Beginner. From what I recall, your predecessor was obvscum but you turned the slot around fooling even very good players like Nacho and ffery and by the time you were finished with it, everyone was convinced that the slot was town. Bert and I managed to push through a win in LYLO both based on our predecessor's play. This corroborates with other scary things that I hear about your scumgames so I am holding off on taking a definitive stance on you until I gather more information about you. I may probably even end up trying to read Nero if he turns out to be easier to read.

@ Pieguyn, I haven't forgotten about your post. I'll come to that soon.

[MC Maraca]

HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERYONE

LETS START 2014 WITH A SCUM LYNCH, WHO'S WITH ME

VOTE: desperado

why desp?

why not Desp?

He's pretty much ignored everything I've stated post-mason claim and his chances of being scum is much higher than it is for anyone else. he isn't as engaged as I would think he would be, and he still didn't explain why he thought the things I've done this game isn't indicative of town-mara

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.

"As scum my play looks more like thus and so" is on my list of statements that come more often from scum than town.

I find myself making those statements whenever I can fit them in, especially when every post of mine reminds three different people of three different things. I feel as scum these statements come less often because I have to psych myself up before posting them, but I don't expect you to take my word for that

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote: Desperado

I feel pretty confident in Desperado/SAD scum and probably scum in Muffin/SSK.

...

Why would you not stick to the larger wagon then?

I mean I'm all happy your voting someone I think is scum (and the unvoting me is a bonus ) but like it makes no sense from you PoV?

I can push through whatever wagon I'd like. I would rather that wagon be on my strongest scumread as opposed to my second strongest townread.

[MC Maraca]

Regardless, I am ok with lynching bert but I am not at all interested in laying down a vote at this moment when the day has just started and I can still talk to nqcho about stuff.

We aren't going to last forever

Why would you lynch Bert?

I've stated why several time prior to this question.

He isn't a very memorable person in my mind, easily buried to the back of my head, and I don't know why.

He should be one of the most memorable people here, but he isn't, even muffin is placing a bigger mark on this game compared to Bert from where I'm standing.

Sakura Hana
Norlkaz
Ser Arthur Dayne
BROseidon
MafiaSSK/Bert

these are my null's in the order of towniest --> scummiest

I think Sakura is town.
Norlkaz is pure null.
SAD is null leaning town right now. Bert point on why SAD is unlikely to defend SSK as scum is actually a pretty good point.
BRO was town before, but I have less faith in that read than I did before.
SSK, no clue.
Bert, town.

you thought Bert was town in the Open game.

I did.

then why are you so confident in your read on him this game when he completely fooled you there?

My play there was some of the shittiest town play that I've put into a thread in a very, very long time. I'm pretty aware where I went wrong in my Bert-town assertion there, just like where I went wrong in my you-town and NS-town assertions (posting? town!). I think that the Bert has a certain something that he never really came close to having in BRO-game.

What is Cabd-read on Bert?

and what's that?

I'm unsure, but I've been pursuing him for a while and he hasn't stopped me or voiced opposition to my read on him and he's pretty aware of it so...

this is a pretty late response, but I still don't agree with your read on him and I don't agree with the reasons of why you town-read him.

his pieces of concern are pieces of concern that is very easily crafted, and nothing to far off from what I've seen him do.. I think
His aggression in him making you see the black-list tell isn't all that potent, nor is it all that great ( and I can't really find any comparisons to him and Mutters/bert in Wingate)

the genuine paranoia is... ok, I guess and him fluidly going from on person to another RE suspicion does seem kinda townish, but this is about the only thing that I can see as possible town-points and it really isn't even a whole lot of it.

[MC Maraca]

My EARS said "WORMSIGN" while I was reading Nacho's #4410.
I had to look around and make sure that wasn't somebody's ringtone or something.
The post is alarming because the primary purpose seems to be showing us how much work Nacho is doing.
His descriptions are too detailed for a notes-to-self post but too mashed-together for a persuasive post.

Geists being our Official Town Leader is something I approve of.
I would appreciate improved quality controls on your posts so that I can work with you, though.
I selected Norlkaz for this game over Llamarble because Norlkaz generates pristine, beautiful ISOs, which should ensure people actually read my posts.

I still think Casso is town, though that is still something we don't necessarily see eye to eye on

The last time Nacho was able to make a case as scum that resulted in me completely dropping my tunnel was... Never.

his walls weren't really that special, but I can see the genuineness behind it, but the way he broke down the F-16 case is pretty fucking awesome

[MC Maraca]

It's also pretty important to note that Nachoscum is hardly (if ever) a person that catches my attention in games, while Nachotown makes me smile, and laugh, and makes me feel like this game might go somewhere, and Nachotown is able to put reason into my head even when others are unsuccessful no matter how hard they try

[Empire]

Day 2, Votecount 18

Casso the King of Seals (4)

-

goodmorning, DOMO, Norlkaz, Desperado

Desperado (3)

-

Sakura Hana, MC Maraca, Casso the King of Seals

Cephrir (2)

-

Ser Arthur Dayne, F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Ser Arthur Dayne (2)

-

pieguyn, Cephrir

MafiaSSK (1)

-

Bert

Bert (1)

-

KoreanBBQ

Not Voting (5)

-

geists, MafiaSSK, zMuffinMan, Generic, BROseidon

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch! Deadline is on January 11th at 10:10 AM EST (expired on 2014-01-11 11:10:12)

Mod Notes

-

BROseidon is V/LA until January 3rd. Generic is V/LA until Sunday.

Prodding Sakura Hana.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous.

When I played with her, her scum game was kinda crap and whenever she showed that kind of emotion meant she's town. However, I haven't played with her in at least 6 months, likely closer to a year. People change their playstyles, and she could've easily developed the ability to fake that kind of rage as scum *shrug*

His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere).

Yes, I sometimes vote without much of a reason. Yes, I vote a lot without putting a one liner. Again, as I've probably stated somewhere, it means I either really don't have something to add other than just agreeing with people, I just want to add my vote as a pressure, or I want to get a reaction out of someone.

I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town.

I've already stated that I didn't want the mafiassk wagon to go through because there were better wagons. Plus, I may have exaggerated a few things here and there about my feelings towards the wagon, but I still thought it was a crap wagon because it was information-less. I just exaggerated the fact I don't really care about informational wagons that much *shrug*.

His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Are you serious? I've already admitted that I think the claim by mafiassk was really weird, plus when domo claimed that just strengthened my suspicions. The "newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic"? Are you serious. Go back and read the posts of this day. You'll note that I was one of the very first people that indicated suspicion of his claim. I can't really see how you see that as opportunistic.

-That's fair, didnt know you hadn't played with her in a while.

-What were your reasons for voting Muffin and I, then? And the major problem I wanted you to address in that bit was your push on pie (especially your original reasons for doing so), not the whole voting thing.

-You originally said that you didn't want SSK lynched because no good associative tells and said he would be a bad lynch even if he was scum. Tammy questioned you on your associative tells stance, and you go "oh, I will defend lurkers unless they were scumreads", which was an odd thing to say considering the whole "bad lynch even if he's scum deal". You then say you were bullshitting to pull the wagon off him, which was more honest, but would have been better if it didn't have the "scummy lurkers are okay to lynch" exchange in between.

-It feels opportunistic because you struggled like hell to pull a wagon off SSK yesterday when he was ready for a lynch when a deadline SSK lynch would have been worse for scum regardless of his alignment. SSK is a mislynch that's probably going to happen eventually, so lynching him during deadline panic would suck, and getting scum lynched at the end of a deadline panic is generally pretty shitty since it shouldn't happen ever. So, going from protecting the hell out of him yesterday to soft-calling him scum is scummy.

[Casso the King of Seals]

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Spoiler: reads

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

Nacho you've spent pages of back and forth with Muffin, and yet Desperado is your strongest scum read. I don't remember you putting a lot of effort into sorting him. Has your exchange with muffin made your read weaker?

My exchange with muffin didn't make my read on him any stronger, that's for sure. He still hasn't done anything particularly town, but there still isn't anything that makes him particularly scummy, either. Both Desperado and SAD, on the other hand, have done things that I don't like and am happy pushing on.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum.

Or the two of you are Scum together and thus it doesn't matter whether you were actually suspecting him.

Plus, assumption of daytalk.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

Just facepalmed myself because I remembered a game where Nacho failed to pick up on the most obvious cop result crumb I've ever seen in a mafia game. He failed so hard he actually thought the post was scummy and voted the cop.

Retracting the hell out of this.

Interesting he didn't say anything about it.

Geists being our Official Town Leader is something I approve of.

This may be the sanest thing from you all game.

I'm fine with a casso wagon.

vote casso

Why

OH LOOK FFERY I'M DOING IT AGAIN

Special preview from my ISOing work:
SCUM
Casso - I don't know if I can really articulate this, but I am getting badfeels from posts like 332, 335, 366, 368, and I'm going to stop that now because too many posts. I also don't like Nacho's reasoning on me (or Thor's, but especially Nacho's) in 379.

Spoiler: a closer look at this

Nacho claims I start slowly. It's a pretty weak reason to not be that interested in someone, even if it was true.
Here are the games which I played with Nacho (or hydra thereof):
N1305 - I was Scum, replaced in, did not start off slowly in any sense.
MN1420 - I was SK, he replaced in, I'll grant my start there was slow.
O494 - I was Town, replaced in and shot in the same night. No start occurred.
AMURIKA - I was Town, he was Mod, my start was not what I'd call slow.
M189 - I was Town, replaced in early D1, start in that game was both quick and silly.
M217 - I was Town, replaced in lategame, he was Mod, my start in that game was slow and baffled.
O514 - I was Scum, replaced in, my start in that game was average speed.
O519 - I was Town, replaced in early, my start... speed was not the noticeable thing about it.

So tl;dr I'm calling bullshit on speed being a reason not to be interested.

Granted I stopped citing posts after the 300s but there wasn't any reason to make it a page long when it could just be a paragraph.

I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.

"As scum my play looks more like thus and so" is on my list of statements that come more often from scum than town.

NEW SANEST THING

Yeah wow that claim was sketch as hell

wtf

Don't understand Nacho-Cephrir thing.

You are a player who starts slowly and a player who I generally don't get great reactions from pushing early. In the two recent games we played together that I can remember, one was modless mafia where you had a very slow start and probably would have been a mislynch if you weren't obv cop.

The other was the newbie game we played together where you were IC and I'm fairly confident I ignored you for pretty much the whole of Day 1. In masons and mafia, mollie pushed you originally and I only picked up on the read when you began to flail. In the open game where Muffin was cross killed for being obvtown and scary, mollie pushed you originally and I think I picked up the push after she was on it for a while. In the newbie game where you replaced in as scum, you were replacing into a slot that was practically confirmed scum thanks to predecessor play and so I was aiming to cut down your posts and lynch you, not read you.

[Casso the King of Seals]

unvote
vote: casso

omgus is a hell of a drug

No response at all?