NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Casso the King of Seals]

Mara, I don't agree with your reasoning for pushing Tammy and I assumed that it was scum motivated. Naturally, I pushed you for it. The reasoning I provided was much the same that Tammy did. I agreed with her reasoning and conclusions. I pointed this out before. She explains it in her 779. We were clearly both wrong about your affiliation.

I also want to respond to this:

I haven't noticed anyone do more than handwave about the past 20 pages or so. I totally TOTALLY disagreed with his push on Maraca, and I thought he made too much of a deal about Tammy being some delicate flower whose day 1 effectiveness could be completely destroyed by a scumread. She's capbable of taking that kind of thing in stride and using it to advantage. I've seen her do it.

I think you misread my intentions because I certainly think Tammy is a big girl that is capable of using things like this to a town advantage. I merely agreed with her assessment of herself that scum would want to throw her off-balance and connected it with past experience. She elaborates on it in 779. This isn't something I deduced by myself.

@ BERT, I never agreed with your read on Geists. I thought it made you town because it came from a town place. Unless you are claiming that I should believe town are always correct, it doesn't follow that I should follow your vote on them. I think you are both town.

@ Generic, I find your stance very scummy. You seem to posturing yourself to vote me based on Mara's certainty despite earlier saying that you were townreading me. Mara and I have played one game together and we didn't interact a lot in it either. You and I played in one game where we interacted a lot. Why would you trust her read over your own?

So, far out of the people that voted me, I find MC the most townish - even without the Mason claim, I think Mara obvtowned herself. I am inclined to believe GoodMorning is the other mason as it matches with MC's read on her and other's thoughts about it. I find Casso extremely scummy. Partly because Nacho is hanging back while Thor troll-votes anyone and everyone without regard to who is town or scum or has any reads at all. Most of his posts are alignment neutral but the fundamental difference is that I believe town-Thor would play to win. As of now, it doesn't seem like they are helping town win. The others on the wagon are null besides Bert who is town. Off the wagon, I am even more confident in my read on Geists. I am getting slightly paranoid that GIF thinks ffery is scum and he has lot more experience playing with her but I evaluated their slot to the best of my ability and still read them as town. Pieguyn's latest posts also re-affirm my previous townread as do Desperado's and Korean BBQ's.

TOWN

:
1) Tammy
2) Geists
3) Desperado
4) Pieguyn
5) Bert
6) GoodMorning
7) MC Maraca

YET TO BE SORTED

:
8) zMuffinMan - Leaning town
9) KoreanBBQ - Leaning town
10) MafiaSSK - Null
11) DOMO - Null
12) BROseidon - Null
13) Norlkaz - Null
14) Cephrir - Null
15) Sakura Hana - Null
16) Ser Arthur Dayne - Null
17) Generic - Leaning scum

SCUM

:
18) Stuffed Crust
19) Casso the King of Seals

I think Casso is scum likely with Stuffed Crust, and possibly a couple of people in my null pile, Generic being a person of concern at this moment. Casso's vote on me is especially suspicious because Nacho knows how to read me really well. He's played plenty of games with me, I've asked for his advice on how to improve my game both in PMs and in public etc. If that slot has a read on me, it would be Nacho's and if they had a scum read, he would attack me extensively. Nacho sitting back and letting Thor throw in a troll vote doesn't match up with his town meta. Nacho also wouldn't be indifferent to having a read on me or let Thor take the lead.

Then there's this, which would be Falcon swinging full tilt against me when he just got done tunneling the hell out of you after you claimed mason. I know it's generally townish to attack high hanging fruit and scum occasionally attempt to do it, but holy shit this would be ballsy if Falcon-scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Ok? You agree and I can stop now?

[Bert]

Thor mentioned in his readlist that you said that regarding me.

Also I kinda want bert to list his full readlist.

Ugh OK but it'll be Bert's gut, not Bert, because Bert is home for the holidays and isn't doing anything other than sit on the couch and watch sports mostly

Gut Town:

Arthur Dayne (his defending SSK wagon tonight after being listed as a scumspect if SSK lynch does not go through - town motivated IMHO)

Nacho - although I'm toying with him still, he is kinda townie since he joined the hurrah last night - however, his choices for targets are all super easy lynches and it's really lame, but he did this lame thing in Chosen Mafia too and is also coming off a terrible performance in 534, where he pushed Mario4 for days and a few other lurkers...why are we following him, again? Oh right, he has proven himself. Thor is freakin sarcastic and I Didn't realize that about him until yesterday night, so my read may have been way off as I just assumed the posts were mostly Nacho, hence that big ol scumread.

Sakura - after the AtE which I expect her to be decent enough to not to do as scum.

Null-

GIF is hard to read and is a sleeper.

SC - is too out-there and then lurks, which annoys me, and the attitude of Varsoon annoys me, and it's hard to read someone so annoying in tone (sorry it's true).

Falcon - I want to call him town, but I'm holding back after seeing his scumgame in 247. I want to wait in case his scum-true-colors show up and he goes after me crazily or shows some serious doubt at ANY point of the game. If he ever does that to someone he reads so well, then that's a scumclaim for him pretty much.

Null-scum:

Bro annoys me, so does

Muffin. Partly their reputation as scum, and then Muffin's play has been sketchy. Bro's has to at points where he released reads. I rely on what they think of me as well, their progressions, and Bro's made no sense. Muffin just pings. They are in the null-scum category because I am not familiar with either player. They don't expand broadly enough for me to ever feel comfortable with them.

DOMO - cutesy way of interacting with me rubs me the wrong way. Terrible logically, but also has that tinge of perennial-lynchbait.

Maraca - Mara shot down my townread of Cabd tonight, and her absolutely terrible read on me and explanation why. Was giving her the benefit of the doubt after the mason claim, and how I've seen them lynched easily, but man oh man that is bad tonight. This wreaks of the terrible scum-logic Mara had in 534. And then the claims remind me of 1489 Wingate, OH IM CLEARED LOVER, except its Mason this time. This is on par with how she wanted me dead and had an antagonist (me) with Nacho around in Wingate.

Don't like and I'd like to bring to the GRAVE BABY:

Geists - listed three friggin large BIG reasons why Sakura could easily flip town, yet went after her as a primary suspect. C'mon. That, and gut feelings from 1436, but I don't think I've ever read her as town ever since that game and probably won't ever recover from it anyway. But still gut screams scum, and this is Bert's gut y'all! Maybe they'll lead a wagon and show some guts sometime, but until then I'm unconvinced.

Desperado - interactions with DOMO seem off gut-wise (Desperado, if you want to say this is dumb, please just save it and assume it has already been said <3)


I'll finish this in 20 minutes after I get off the phone.

Don't remember enough about

Tammy hasn't been here enough since I came into the game for her to go super town on me (only a drunkposting extravaganza and a showing last night, that's it, so it's TBD).

SSK - don't know anything about him/her, vote on him/her is totally a sheep the herd

GM - is apparently a mason with Maraca, and weirdly I don't remember anything about him/her. I don't read stuff that happens before I got here, well skim ISO's maybe once or twice but nothing more will happen

Not everyone who's scummy can be scum, so it comes down to who is MOST scummy.

[MC Maraca]

but, if Tammy and Falcon are both town then I have to bring someone from my null-list (and possibly from the lower tiers of my towns) down.

the thought of having to touch any of my town-reads at this point, scares me and I'm kinda worried about my scum-read on Desperado because I did have him as town earlier today. He's got brought down because of his stance on us, his reaction being off to what I expect and because both Cabd and my mason buddy disagree on that read

what do you think about the people I placed in my null's and the order of them?

[Bert]

con't

Oh, wow sorry guys, that wall looks like I vomited. I'm sorry! Also, null-scum doesn't mean I want to kill them, it's who I don't feel good about. I need to come up with better categories.

Take that as a towniest to scummiest ladder please. I hate when people say YOU HAVE TOO MANY SCUMREADS/TOWNREADS/or NULLS. That's what I got subconsciously as I was typing a wall.

Looks like I forgot Norlkaz (Llamarble)

Null -

Norlkaz (Llamarble) - did some weird reads in the game when coming in, and explained nothing, and then ran away. I wanted him dead in Wingate and he got NKed N1...so what do I know

Town:

Ceph - playstyle change confuses me, and so arrogant in terms of professing reads as compared to Hard Boiled, which makes me very uncomfortable. However, confidence that he will be able to get a strong read on me read as super genuine.

Null-scum

I want to give him/her a chance because I have scumread him/her in every single game I've had with him/her. The play change (that and MUFFIN's and BRO's - as mentioned by a few other players) is something that leads to concern logically. However, Thor's concern, other people's concern.

This is a TOWNIEST-SCUMMIEST ladder pretty much. I've never had to categorize 20 people. TWENTY!

[pieguyn]

I said that I could easily defend people that I am familiar with based on a meta basis. Most people who aren't absolute shit as scum can competently make a case as either alignment. Does that mean you never trust cases because they can make cases as scum? No. It means you take into account the merit of a case and actually look into it when a case is provided.

I don't trust myself with meta, so basically I'm following GIF's meta read. especially bc I have a townread on BBQ, I feel way more comfortable with GIF's read and thus I think there's a real chance you BS'ed your meta towncase. if I thought I had the ability to verify either way, I would ><

pieface, if you can link me to an old game of yours where you replaced into a town slot, and you catch up in this manner, I'll drop this attack as fast as I dropped the flawed town tell on F-16.

it's ongoing so I can't cite it .-.

[pieguyn]

also, I just realized smth

Good to know.

Thor this game is supposedly not really caring about anything and just wants a lynch right?

if he doesn't feel like putting any effort in, why would he be interested in doing a meta dive on me? such a thing takes a lot of time and effort. so it doesn't make sense 0.0

vote: Casso

anyone up for a flashwagon here?

[Bert]

EBWOP: That last description was about the null-scum category description. As I said, null-scum doesn't mean GRAVE-bound, it means I am not feeling good about you and would definitely consider pressuring you and potentially lynching you. And I'm pretty powerless anyway, so that list is mostly talk.

I'm also very confused about

pieguyn

, who I didn't mention. However, please know I've scumread him/her in every single game I've been in with him/her. So yes I called him/her scum/scummy, but I have my doubts, especially after I pulled a Pick&Ban and got JKed by Sakura and scumread by Nacho. She/he is definitely null TBD.

What else do you want from me, GIF?

[MC Maraca]

no

nonono

we aren't going to flashwagon Casso, you don't have enough support to do it

I'm more than ready to defend them again, and attempting to lynch them at this point is FOR SURE going to lead us into a nolynch

[geists]

also, I just realized smth

Good to know.

Thor this game is supposedly not really caring about anything and just wants a lynch right?

if he doesn't feel like putting any effort in, why would he be interested in doing a meta dive on me? such a thing takes a lot of time and effort. so it doesn't make sense 0.0

vote: Casso

anyone up for a flashwagon here?

How in bloody fucking hell are you discounting the tremendous amount of effort that Nacho has put into this game. He got a wagon to L-1 and then fucking dismantled it because he started to see town glimmers.

There's absolutely no way that makes sense for scum-Nacho to do.

If you want to know why I suspect you this game, then this stance right here epitomizes it. It's like you wouldn't recognize town motivation if it rared up on its hind legs and slapped you across the chops.

[pieguyn]

holy crap my miss
sry, I don't have enough time/energy atm to follow what's going on >_<//I basically just saw "sakura wagon -> L-1 -> massive AtE/outburst/w.e happened -> it got disbanded -> SSK wagon" 0.0

how many votes are on SSK?

[MC Maraca]

like, 6

[pieguyn]

ok thx

vote: SSK

[Bert]

GIF that's as close as you'll get to a full reads list from me since it's holiday break and desktop access is unavailable late at night

[Bert]

Ceph

Ceph

Ceph

Ceph!

Ceph

Rir or irir

Rrrrrrr *rolls r*

[Cephrir]

Why is SSK scum other than his fucking strange trajectory on me?

P-edit: Sup.

[Cephrir]

OK I'm officially fed up with myself enough to start doing this, but I prolly won't finish tonight,

[Bert]

I only skim brief bits so you already hve done so much more than me!! Be proud

[Bert]

I'm just voting him because Nacho is

Yeah.

[Sakura Hana]

Desp is another good wagon methnks.

[Cephrir]

Even though I have technically read most of the posts between the last time I was really caught up and here, I'm going through them again.

I have no scumreads. From the entire day, I developed 5 solid townreads (Tammy, Bert, Geists, Pieguyn, and Desperado). That is less progress than I hoped for but I am fairly sure that there is no scum there. I'd prefer to lynch outside that pool, preferably someone useless that just pops in from time to time to complain about how behind they are (this should put them out of their misery), and preferably someone my townreads want to lynch. I'd like to hear Tammy's updated thoughts after she gets back.

As it is, I am looking at the following possible scumreads from the above players (I crossed out the ones I won't lynch):

Tammy: MC Maraca,

Giests?

Bert:

Geists, Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665), pieguyn

, Ser Arthur Dayne, DOMO
Geists:

Pieguyn

, Sakura, StuffedCrust
Pieguyn:

Casso,

(please provide your other options, Pieguyn)
Desperado: StuffedCrust, maraca,

geists,

domo, dayne

Tammy says Dayne is town, I am leaning pretty heavily town on DOMO and he isn't a viable wagon anyway. I'll likely go with StuffedCrust. The thing that bugged me about them was 2306? I don't like the timing of it. Just shortly before, in 2273, they had me as town but quickly change to apparently agreeing with the suspicion on me. Then, they vote MC Maraca who I was pushing. I don't like it because they seem to pick a side between me and MC based on who was going down. They townread me when everyone else does and scumread me when everyone else does.

Taking this much care/detail with this list looks pretty good to me. When I can read this guy's posts without my eyes glazing over I tend to like them, but that's rare.

Cephrir would be an easy target for a mislynch if he wasn't part of the scum team.
He's had a lot of questionable and awkward play that I'm surprised hasn't been exploited to leverage a lynch.
Why not?
Because the scum doesn't want his lynch.
Why do you think scum wouldn't want his lynch?
1. Because he is scum,
2. Because they are sure of victory,
or 3. Because they are clueless?

-V

It looks like I never commented on how much this post is basically a scum claim. So yeah, this sucks.

Tammy:

I'm voting who I think is scum; not who I think is getting way too hot and bothered because "omfg how dare they read me wrong don't they know I'm innocent child" You can take your burden of proficiency at reading you onto your plane with you. And lose it in the luggage sorting area. In the great words of andrius, "The only innocents are bodies"

Cabd - You have no idea what my mindset actually is if you think that burden of proficiency of reading me is the problem. You have always attributed it far too simplistically.

Nobody should think they can actually get a read on me by being rude and crossing lines to see if I'll get pissed. Because to think that is to not actually know anything about me.

You want to know something about me? You want a meta tell you can take to the bank? Go read my first few posts. I'm never that happy to be in a game as scum. I'm never just having that much fun with the game as scum. THAT'S what I can't fake. And no I don't enter every game I'm town in that happy, but if I am that happy. I'm town.

I won't pretend to understand exactly what mara did with you; and I personally think it was a bit over the top; but this is a game. Anything and everything that helps me, or my partner, get a read is fair game to me so long as it falls in the game's rul

Well congratulations. Bully for you! How'd that work out for you guys, eh? You got to call me town because I got pissed at someone being rude, oh yay, but oh gosh now I'm a scum read and the result is it caused a distraction and 88 pages later it still reeks of shit and gave me another person I have no desire to play with. Wow that sounds like that worked out so well for you guys. Well, if you're scum it worked out marvelously. If town, no so much.

I don't know how people feel about Tammy right now but between this post and where I am now I see people still having some reservations on her being town and all I can say is WTF WHY WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU

helped the scum.

This ought to be good. Expand on this.

Based off your attacks, Tammy has been running at less than full steam, or at least, not as smoothly as she was in Empire's last game. The fact that you attacked her as a sort of reaction test shows that you know she would likely get upset. You intentionally wanted her to get upset so you could get a read or pretend to get one and move on. The ultimate effect of what you did was scum-sided although I am not fully sure if that was your initial motivation. Perhaps you actually thought as town that you could rile her up, develop a read and move on, with no effect to the gamestate. That brings me to the question: what exactly was your intent at the beginning. What was your ideal outcome?

Questions like this seem townie in motivation, but somewhere in the execution I start wondering "why would you even care about this?" This is a common trend.

You were attacking Cephrir. Then you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. We attacked you because we didn't like how you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. You said "why attack me if I was attacking one of your scum suspects?". Answer? It doesn't matter who your suspects are when 1) Cephrir is a Thor-suspect who is vetted to be town by me.

This is still weird. On the one hand, I know you're a pro at reading me. On the other hand, others who are pretty decent at it too I think were scumreading me at this point, and I think they were correct in doing so. In addition, you know that you suspecting me pretty much earns you my vote on the spot, so it wouldn't really be a good option for you as scum anyway.

[Cephrir]

I know I'm responding to ancient stuff, I'm doing it for my own benefit as much as anyone else's.

[Cephrir]

UNVOTE

Mac how much game experience with F16 do you have?

I see where you're going with this, but i'll stand behind the line for now.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this. I hardly ever do.

+1 townie brownie as if you even need more townie brownies at this point

you are basically swimming in brownies

okay not really that's an exaggeration but still that is a good number of brownies

ffery said "you are in luck because I am town" in our newbie together 1436, so that sounds town in my skewed logic ways FWIW lol...

im totally doodling but i am about to skim

P-edit yes that would help

+1

yeah, KoreanBBQ's ISO feels fake as heck. I just looked at who that hydra is.

GIF what is wrong with you, hope all those posts were Nero or else we will have issues?

+1


I know I said I didn't have a strong read initially, and I still don't have nearly a Hard Boiled level read, but feeling good here upon reading along with the thread rather than iso skimming.

This trend proceeds to continue. Someone who has played with Bert more than once, is he any good at faking the demeanor at all? Otherwise I'm just about ready to call him town [this is based on everything from his entry to page 100, not just up to this point].

Also my subconscious tells me to discredit bert's gut.

What is even the point of this post.

Someone answer my question about what the relevant content for me to read over the past 30ish pages is.

You have recent scumteam experience with zmuffin. What do you think of his play?

His apathy is coming off town to me, if anything. :/

Why is that? Why do you think scumMuffin wouldnt be likely to pull the apathetic card? I can see where he wouldn't have direction this game, but I have trouble seeing him regard the game way that Thor currently is because he has the tendency to pick up on the cooler things going on.

Agreed, I've thought Muffin's apathy was town. Perhaps this is related to my own apathy though.

If I'm not trying to sort you, what the hell are we doing now?

wow. you are scum, aren't you?

I don't see how those words could possibly bother you!

I've seen enough.

and I've thought this over.

VOTE: f16

if He does so happen to be town, I'm probably already in alot of trouble

My personal townlist is already big enough so that, I can somewhat start doing PoE. I don't see why you can't do that, either

nyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

and, I had asked cabd if you had a reason to think he was able to read you correctly. There isn't, so you not being impressed by him because he "got your alignment wrong" is absolute shit and reeks of trying to get on his good side.

Why haven't you asked me if I had a reason to think Cabd can read me? I'll answer anyways. Cabd has read plenty of my games, and has even said once that he pegged me as scum in a game after it ended. There is a large enough variation in my town and scum games that someone like Cabd should be able to read me very easily. This is very blatantly my towngame. I am not this skilled as scum. My scumgame amounts to lots of lurking. My best scumgame was where I replaced into an autowin situation and twisted my scumbuddy's meta to call him town and held myself together for 4 real life days in 5P LYLO, so it wasn't even a big deal at all. Bert and Nacho know about this. All other scumgames are much worse. You should check my wiki or ask someone like Tammy, Nacho, or Bert who actually know what my scumgame looks like.

I am actually interested in hearing how accurate this is.

[Cephrir]

is he any good at faking the demeanor at all?

I guess what I really mean is "is he very good at faking the demeanor". It's not as present as it was in HB but is very much here.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I've skimmed the past 15 pages but I'm going back to read in detail.

F-16 3247:

I have no control of Thors actions. My read on you hasn't been upgraded to a strong townread until my most recent posts, so I haven't walled like crazy about it yet. I never told him to take the lead, but he did. Meanwhile... I have strong townreads on you and Stuffed Crust. I would like a better lynch so that neither of these things go through. Sheep me or find something better, please.

So, you are convinced now that Sakura is town and I am leaning that way as well. What's the Nacho reads-list looking like at this point?