Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I want you to look at everyone else and figure out what

your

thoughts are. I then want you to communicate those thoughts to all of

us

.

Well, duh, obviously. It's still going to take me a little while.

(Besides, Thesp is scum.)

[Mgm]

I'm not feeling the CDB wagon. If someone actually posted a reason for it, it didn't stick with me as making logical sense.

MGM: If Ether were lynched as a pro-town player, where would you want to look next? What if she were lynched as a scumbag?

If Ether was a scumbag, I'd definitely look at Thesp next because of Ether's decision not to hammer him. If he was innocent, I'd have to change tack (which in this case might take a bit - not much - of the heat off Thesp).

If an Ether lynch isn't happening, I will jump back on the Thesp wagon since his death will give us the most information about the people who tried to lynch and save him.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

ChannelDelibird: 3 (Thesp Glork Fritzler)
Thesp: 2 (CES ChannelDelibird)
Zindaras: 1 (Patrick)
Ether: 1 (Mgm)

Not voting: Ether MrBuddyLee Nightfall Zindaras

We only need 5 for a lynch!

[Zindaras]

No. If I held "whenever somebody pushes a lynch on a pro-town player," I'd want to lynch like eight of the other ten players right now (though incidentally, there are more players than usual that I find to be scummy). The differences come in the manner, timing, and reasoning of a push on a pro-town player. You're intentionally oversimplifying this to try to make a point... and it's not working.

So you believe that making a PbPA and actually bothering to re-read Thesp's posts (which I don't believe is something common among the Thesp-voters) is scummier than just voting someone and insisting he is scum throughout the day?

642 is a completely neutral statement. Saying that your gut feeling had gone away does not equate to saying that you think somebody is pro-town. Your "I read Adele in isolation and think she is pro-town" statement came in 788. Though I now realize that you meant to call her pro-town in 642, you were far too ambiguous in that post. At any rate, it seems to be a moot point now.

Saying you don't think someone is scum does equal saying someone is pro-town.

[Mgm]

Glork, since you posted a whole bunch of questions I'll put you to work with one to answer of your own. What does your current suspect list look like and why?

[Glork]

I'm not feeling the CDB wagon. If someone actually posted a reason for it, it didn't stick with me as making logical sense.

If ever there were a completely contrived post, this is it.
"If someone actonally posted a reason for it, it didn't stick with me as making logical sense."
How can you both be unsure whether somebody posted a reason ("

If

somebody

actually

posted....") yet simultaneously think that said reason (which you aren't sure exists) doesn't make logical sense?
Thinking that somebody's reasoning does not make sense necessarily implies that somebody posted reasoning, does it not?



Also, to answer your question to me:

Probably Pro-Town:
MBL
Thesp
Fritz
MGM
Glork

Probably Scum:
CDB
Zindaras

Possibly Scum:
CES
Patrick
At most one of Ether/Nightfall. (Leaning towards Ether, though.)

Reasoning found here, here, and here. If you'll notice, my sentiments haven't changed much since then. I'm still a bit wary over MBL's "I think Ether, Zindaras, CES, and the trio on Thesp are all suspicious" comment is very out-of-place, and he may get knocked down a notch when CDB turns up scum... but other than that, it's pretty accurate.

So you believe that making a PbPA and actually bothering to re-read Thesp's posts (which I don't believe is something common among the Thesp-voters) is scummier than just voting someone and insisting he is scum throughout the day?

No, now you're not only twisting my argument, but falsely labeling the attacks of Thesp's other attackers. Several player made arguments with more logical content. But to halfway answer your question: Sometimes. Re-reading a player's posts does not make you less likely to be scum when you make your argument. It just means you're trying harder. Like I said, there were other reasons -- timing, mannerisms -- which contribute to my sentiment. The fact that you made an entire PBPA which basically amounted to "let me label all of Thesp's good posts as "Argument." or "Response to X" and let me focus on what I can drag out that's scummy" without supplementing that attack with a vote until a week later when you could wagon Thesp to Lynch -2 sends up red flags.

Saying you don't think someone is scum does equal saying someone is pro-town.

I disagree. But this appears to be a semantics/wording argument which I don't think will go anywhere... so there's really no point in continuing it.

[MrBuddyLee]

he may get knocked down a notch

when

CDB turns up scum

Early morning slip of the wrist?

FOS: Glork

[Glork]

he may get knocked down a notch

when

CDB turns up scum

Early morning slip of the wrist?

FOS: Glork

Quite intentional, actually.

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't know what you guys mean by "slip of the wrist", but where I come from it has a very specific meaning...

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

FoS: Glrok

[Patrick]

Don't worry Stoofer

[Mr Stoofer]

I do worry. I don't want this sort of thing going on around my dining room table. And I don't want you guys to go blind...

[Mgm]

I'm not feeling the CDB wagon. If someone actually posted a reason for it, it didn't stick with me as making logical sense.

If ever there were a completely contrived post, this is it.
"If someone actonally posted a reason for it, it didn't stick with me as making logical sense."
How can you both be unsure whether somebody posted a reason ("

If

somebody

actually

posted....") yet simultaneously think that said reason (which you aren't sure exists) doesn't make logical sense?
Thinking that somebody's reasoning does not make sense necessarily implies that somebody posted reasoning, does it not?

Hence the use of the word 'if'. I don't remember anyone posting a reason and that's the very reason I don't like the CDB wagon. If someone posted a reason that had merit I would've remembered it.

[Thesp]

Hence the use of the word 'if'. I don't remember anyone posting a reason and that's the very reason I don't like the CDB wagon. If someone posted a reason that had merit I would've remembered it.

Let me post a recap of reasons I have given for suspicion of ChannelDelbird.

I'm still most uncomfortable with ChannelDelibird, particular with his actions D1 (following a townie's bandwagon with support and little other contribution, and deliberately not reacting to something he knew was to elicit reaction).

I still think your silence on D1 while a townie was being run up (which you'd put your vote on early, then did not detract from nor push for) is notable, and I'm surprised no one else is jumping on it.

What I find disconcerting is that he jumped on a bandwagon of a townie, then contributed nothing to continue the bandwagon nor anything to dissuade it. He contributed practically nothing except his vote. I haven't seen that from anyone else, if you'd like to point it out on someone, I'd love to see it, as they'd be worth looking at, too.

If I had reacted to your continuous claims that I was scum, my reaction would have been along the lines of "WTF? You're accusing me for no reason". Your 'accusations' looked to me like scum trying to deliberately incite a defensive reaction, so I was pretty sure that if I did react, you'd have pounced on it.

Why would the only possible reaction be defensive, as you seem to imply here? What was it about my "accusations" that made them appear to be scum trying to incite reactions rather than town trying to get reactions?

Town should not be calling for someone to die so repeatedly and vehemently on such a lack of basis.

What do you think of Cogito Ergo Sum? A cursory scan of your posts shows no substantive pressure on him, yet his activity in the thread would epitomize the idea you're putting forth here to attack me.

Further FOS: ChannelDelibird.

Why are scum more likely to be adamant and vocal? My experience has been the opposite, particularly because scum know the particular wagon-victim is town, want to push it along, but don't want to be associated too strongly with it. Your behavior D1 is consistent with this.

"I wouldn't do that as scum" = WIFOM.

You need to be taken to task for this. You are unfairly using the brand WIFOM with little actual basis.

Let's examine the form of the argument here.

CDB: I think Thesp is more likely to be scum because he exhibits A.
Thesp: In my experience, scum are more likely to exhibit

~A

(Not-A), which I have seen

you

doing.
CDB: Thesp, you are using WIFOM, which is scummy.

I think this would be a fair characterization for your attack.

If this is the form for WIFOM

, WIFOM is useless to the point of absurdity. In the first, I am not using A as a defense, as I know fully well I could be deliberately countering known or perceived scum tendencies. (I've long thought defenses are largely overrated, much because of this possibility.) In the second, I am using it to attack you, as I believe you are exhibiting tendencies scum frequently exhibit. It is ludicrous to suggest that an attack on you so phrased is WIFOM. Consider the above example, substituting for A, the concept, "is named Thesp". (In my experience, I believe I have been scum less than statistically likely to be scum, so people who are not Thesp are more likely to be scum. Yes, it's a terrible argument, but look where I'm going:)

CDB: I think Thesp is more likely to be scum because he exhibits

being named Thesp

.
Thesp: In my experience, scum are more likely to exhibit

not being named Thesp

, which I have seen

you

doing.
CDB: Thesp, you are using WIFOM, which is scummy.

The form is clearly absurd. (Note that it doesn't terribly matter what A is, this is purely for examining whether or not WIFOM is used here.) What you are doing is taking a disagreement over what scum are more actually likely to do, and trying to pin it on me as WIFOM. You are looking for excuses to vote me rather than looking for who might be scum, and

that

is scummy.

...

ChannelDelibird is exhibiting the classic characteristics of scum silently pushing terrible wagons, showing up only when called on. This must stop, and lynching him is the way to do it.

Also note that ChannelDelibird has been

incredibly

active on the site other than this game.

Vote: Thesp Same reasons I had yesterday.

Welcome back. Care to elaborate a response to my last post directed at you? I'd particularly like a response to my accusation against you of your hypocrisy in ignoring CES while pressing me, and of your flippant, irresponsible use of WIFOM.

Perhaps you overlooked some of this, and a re-read may provide insight. Otherwise, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the lack-of-merit of the presented case.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Thesp, calling on CDB's hypocrisy wrote:

That's not hypocrisy, that's having double standards. :teach:

(Besides, CDB knows I play like that.)

And the one before last is essentially misrepresentation. CDB has not been particularly active in any of his games. Sitewide, sure, but that's hardly relevant.

[Nightfall]

Speaking of CDB,

CDB you still here?

[Mgm]

Thesp, it's more a case of merit for other players than a lack of merit of the CDB things you posted. The things you've recapped can be scummy, but there's better candidates out there.

[Glork]

Thesp, it's more a case of merit for other players than a lack of merit of the CDB things you posted. The things you've recapped can be scummy, but there's better candidates out there.

You're insane. Two of the three players currently voting CDB have

extensively

written about why they think CDB is scum. I don't think I've made a single positive comment about CDB's play, and Thesp just lined up numerous reasons to beleive CDB is scum. Nobody else is willing to jump aboard. The fact that this "wagon" has stalled at 3 votes and nobody is willing to explore it further is probably testament to the fact that there are a few wary townies, and that both of CDB's scumbuddies are figthting (or, at the very least, patentedly avoiding) a lynch on him.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: ChannelDelibird.

I've spotted something very naughty. I suggest the rest of you read his posts with a fine-toothed comb if you already haven't.

[MrBuddyLee]

That's L-1 by the way. And yeah, he's

definitely

the right lynch today.

If CDB turns up town and I die tonight, go after the people who pushed his wagon for certain. Do NOT let them off the hook.

If he comes up scum and I'm dead, look into Nightfall, CES, Zindy and eventually MgM later in the game.

[Glork]

I'm glad you finally saw the light, MBL.

[Glork]

Hmm... actually,

Unvote

.

I absolutely plan on lynching CDB today. But I want to finish my analysis before the end of the day, just in case I end up dying overnight.


I really do hope you folks look at it carefully if you haven't already. I'd like to think that there's a lot of useful stuff in there.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one but if I'm not, Fritz or Thesp is taking the fall, not me.

Seriously, everyone who checks this thread should reread CDB's posts carefully and give their thoughts. There's something significant in there but I missed it the first two times through.

[MrBuddyLee]

ohoho, now wait a minute. Was that L-1 too close for comfort? Did I call your bluff on your bus attempt?

I'm going to hold you to that promise to lynch CDB regardless of how things play out. I've seen this play before in Light's Out and it didn't end well there. And before you ask as usual if I'm being dense, the answer is no.

[Glork]

MBL, you're jumping at shadows.

I

will

see to it that CDB is lynched today. I'm sure that won't change in the final part(s) of my re-read. I just want to throw down some more analysis before I potentially die overnight. (And yes, I find it far more likely that I'll die overnight than you will. Come to think of it, I think it's more likely that any one of about 3 players will die, rather than you.)