Hydras in mini normals

[Zachrulez]

I just watched a player get pulled out of their sign up for a mini normal game because they expressed a desire not to play with hydras. This bothered me, since I have a long held notion (probably unexpressed to this point.) that hydras shouldn't even really exist in normal games. (They don't occupy a player slot in a normal way.) Have we reached a point where we're outright favoring hydras in games over individual players regardless of the game type? I do think there needs to be a line for hydras, and I think generally that line is drawn with normal, newbie games. The remedy proposed for the player was to sign up for the next game, but what if a hydra ins to that one too, and the game after that?

I probably feel the same way about hydras in large normals given that they're much less complex then theme games generally. I do think that players should have refuge from being forced to play with hydras at least in the confines of normal setups.

I'm pretty sure we don't allow hydras in newbies and for good reason. If this is wrong feel free to correct me on that, but if it is wrong, then be prepared for me to rant about that too.

[Zachrulez]

I was under the impression it was a mod-dependent thing. The mod can disallow hydras if they feel they are not meant for the game environment, but can also allow it. (Outside newbies.)

That's the way it works now. I think they should be banned for normal games entirely though. Themes are fair game.

[Zachrulez]

My feelings about them being banned from large normals are less strong, but I think they should be out of mini normals.

[Zachrulez]

The preference is mod-based.

The player was pulled out of the game because he signed up after the hydra did; it is a matter of chronological priority in sign-ups.

I get that the preference being mod-based is the current policy, but I think it needs to be examined, paticularly when it comes to mini normals. Many of the mods who mod mini normals are doing so for the first time and might not have even given as much of a thought to the idea of hydras signing up for their games or even how they'd want to handle it. I'm sure it's the case presently that a player has no idea what the mod's policy is for a mini normal game (Probably holds true in general as well.) on whether or not they allow hydras and that's something at the very least I think should change not only for mini normals but with all moderated games in general.

A lot of players can't do that solo.

This is terrible mindset to be in and you should feel terrible.

Your hydra partner isn't some backup player that picks up the pieces when you flake from a game.

Both hydra players should read the entire game, and discuss fully before making posts that have game content.

Yes, it should take more time and effort to play as a hydra than it does as a solo.

Hydras can be played in various ways. Sotty and I have done it the way you've said, and we've also done it to reduce our individual burden in a game we both want to play, so that one of us can focus when the other is busy and vice versa. We'll both run posts by each other and post individually, depending on our mood.

[Zachrulez]

The mods are aware they should sign off about their hydra preferences in the queue thread, Zach. I inform them of such when I tell them that their game is up for sign-ups, though the moderators are not required to state it openly. Furthermore, the players can simply ask in the thread if hydras are allowed or not.

It could be right in there in the game signups for a particular game. Like right under the title of the game there could be a little spot that says

Hydras: Yes/no

[Zachrulez]

A hydra partner is a very strong weapon to have at your disposal.

It is another player who has looked your role PM and shares your win con; someone who can be absolutely trusted. (do you know how rare that is in mafia?)

I don't know why hydras on this site degenerated into a "buddy who picks up the slack when I'm busy", but in no way they should be simply be treated as a normal player.

Actually when Mith ran California trilogy, that was one of the things he actively encouraged getting a hydra partner for if memory serves me correctly. (The game also had a modkill mechanism for inactivity so that did necessitate having someone else to post if you couldn't.) Of course that was a large theme game, and hydras were not commonplace at that point.

[Zachrulez]

@Tierce:

I think that's good, but potentially creates another problem if the majority of games are good with hydras (which I assume they are- could be totes off base), then players not wanting to play with hydras have to watch like a hawk for games that fit their taste. I suppose they could check the queue for mods with no hydras and pre-in, though.

But I think rolling back one step is more important first, because I had forgotten I wanted to initiate this thread myself a couple months ago:

That was my concern when I saw this. I don't actually know how prominent hydras are but I don't think I've played a normal in recent memory that didn't have any.

Are hydras

Normal

?

As an off the cuff thought experiment, would you consider a game with 13 hydras Normal? (Assume it formed organically and was not advertised as a game for hydras- I believe that was shown to be not normal/violating player limits.)

When I considered the question some time ago, my answer was no.

[Zachrulez]

I don't mod and rarely play normals, but: this seems entirely blown out of proportion.

Hydra signed up for game, mod allowed it as mod allowed hydras.

Player signed up for games, said, "I don't want to play with hydras."

Player was told that the hydra signed up first.

End of story.

This exact same mechanism would occur if two players that don't like each other and don't want to play with each other both signed up for the same game.

Well he said no hydras please and then was removed from the queue without the option to out himself... but yeah ok.

Pulling hydras into it is just conflating two issues. I get that you don't like hydras, Zach, but trying to spin this as an issue for your crusade to remove them from Normals is disingenuous at best.

If you think I don't like hydras, you really don't know my history with the site. (I've actually played many hydra games in every queue except for newbies, mini normals, and large normals.) I just don't think they belong in normal games and part of the heart of the issue is in fact whether hydras actually should be considered normal.

Let's not freak out on the hydra support end of things here either. Banning them from normals would

not

endanger their existence on the site. (Heck I'm even willing to mod otherwise normal games in the theme queue if people really want to hydra in those kind of games.) They are quite popular and will remain so regardless of what is or is not done here.

[Zachrulez]

Saying, "I don't think hydras should be in Normals" is fine (I don't agree, but fine). Saying, "Hydras are killing people in the

streets

sign up queues and taking the

jobs

slots of

true blooded Americans

non-hydra players" is where the dissonance comes in for me.

I like the system that says it's mod preference.

I don't see anywhere that I made the latter argument. I did make a point that it's probably difficult for players that dislike hydras to avoid them, and that's a point that I think does have some merit.

I'd actually be curious to see what the current ratio of games with hydras vs not is at present.

[Zachrulez]

Right, exactly. I don't even really consider myself necessarily to be anti-hydra, but I just do not like the way 95% of players approach it. And, Zach, I've got to say, you and Sotty were guilty of such a crime.

That said, I admittedly have pretty high standards for players in games (standards that, on occasion, I regrettably don't even live up to myself), and, as FakeGod here is saying, it goes doubly so for hydras. I can count on one hand the amount of hydras I've played with that haven't, either inadvertently or not, sidetracked the game due to frivolity.

I'm well aware that I'm in the minority in this, but I don't want a hydra slot to be person A

and

person B. I want it to, as much as it possibly can be, be "one". So, no, I don't want to see your signature, I don't want to know what's going on in your hydra QT and I don't want anything else to get in the way of that illusion.

That game never happened.

Though technically Sotty didn't play that game. Would have had to have made a single post in the game for that.

In fairness I was never make an argument that hydras should play to Fakegod's standards... though I do have some hydra specific scumtells I do like to rely on. (Some of them are basically everything I did in the game you linked.)

In terms of hydra accounts being one, even me and Sotty kind of had conflicting views on that, as did various players in games we played. There were various players that wanted to know which one of us was posting what at all times, and Sotty was pretty big on signing posts, and I wasn't.

Also that thing Saul posted a while ago about a hydra doing something suspicious and then the other head coming in and dismissing it as the other head being silly. Lynch that, with fire. Hydra scum will only get away with hydra conflicts if you let them.

[Zachrulez]

I've gotten hydras lynched before. It's not impossible.

Granted I was in a hydra for most of them, but I think not doing so as much solo has more to do with encountering fewer hydras.

[Zachrulez]

I always get a kick when people complain about the distracting baggage of hydras, and most of the things are things I have refined into hydra scum tells.

Also a mod allowing hydras into a game is explicitly saying it's not cheating.

This thread is meant to be about whether they should be considered normal though.

[Zachrulez]

I always get a kick when people complain about the distracting baggage of hydras, and most of the things are things I have refined into hydra scum tells.

All those things I mentioned: done by town hydras.

Players that look scummy can also turn out to be town. There isn't really a difference in that regard, just that the dynamic is different.

Also a mod allowing hydras into a game is explicitly saying it's not cheating.

It is a sign that the mods involved don't particularly care about the balance of their game.

I've yet to see hydras drastically affect the balance of a game. I can point you to games where Sotty and I being in a hydra was not enough to tip the game in our favor in the end.

This thread is meant to be about whether they should be considered normal though.

I'm 100% with you that hydras shouldn't be in normal games. I just want to take it a step further.

I'm not sure how you can argue for their removal from theme games, especially given that the mod might want to specifically use that aspect for a game, and have in the past.

[Zachrulez]

It's funny, but I've only played in one KK game, and it was also memorable and depressing. (If you've ever tried to argue with a brick wall before that's what the game was like.)

[Zachrulez]

It's funny, but I've only played in one KK game, and it was also memorable and depressing. (If you've ever tried to argue with a brick wall before that's what the game was like.)

Could be worse. Could have been 2 bricks walls.

It was. I think maybe even more than two.

[Zachrulez]

no need to make that set in stone. More experienced mods will now and then make games that people ask for. The more people that ask for no-hydra games, the more they'll come up. MD is a nice forum to voice such an opinion.

True.

I think I may be biased against Large Normal games. I don't like the current culture for Large Normal games. Mods feel the need to make excessively large games with multiple power roles and multiple factions. It is no surprise that some of the record holders for largest games or longest days come from Large Normal games. Hydras only make that effect worse.

I appreciate testing the NRG's boundary for normality, but not every game has to be ridiculous. Although, I think that is the current culture for every sub-forum currently. Big, complex, long winded.

What's the average size of a large normal game?

I did an 18p with 4 scum and a serial killer with 5 town power roles. (2 of the scum had power roles, the SK had some abilities to help out his disadvantage, and one of the town power roles was specifically to help find the SK.) 8 vanilla town for a game that size seems about right.

Does a game with an SK even count as multiball? It got thrown in with that game because I believe an SK was suggested by Sotty instead of a vig and it stuck.

Edit: Looked at the current 6 games in the New York forum and the average number of players is just over 20. (20 and 1/3rd) That seems relatively reasonable to me.

[Zachrulez]

My current moderator policy is banning hydras in mini, micro, and large normal games and permitting them in themes/opens (depending on whether the open is "normal" or not I guess.)

[Zachrulez]

"Normal" is completely arbitrary in that it is based only on what the community expects/considers standard. Breaking or not breaking the normal rules means nothing because the rules can always be altered to whatever the people want them to be. For example, the only reason that Cults aren't normal isn't that they go against the normal rules, it's because the community has decided that Cults generally suck and should pretty much only be seen in specialized games.

Does the community at large think that

hydras

generally suck and should pretty much only be seen in specialized games? Probably not, but there's room for debate, hence this thread.

Perhaps a poll is in order? Although, you'd only be polling people who visit MD, so there would be some bias. (I would guess it would be against hydras.) The mods could make it a global announcement, but that's purely up to them.

I would have created a poll for this thread had I thought to at the time. I don't think it would get a good sample editing one in now.