Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Mgm]

Tonight, I'm a bit preoccupied with other stuff, but I'll take this moment to

FOS

everyone who had a chance to hammer Thesp and didn't do it.

You might not think he's scummy, but a no-lynch is more harmful than any lynch could be. Especially when the chance he's got a power role is very very small.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Thesp: 2 (CES ChannelDelibird)
ChannelDelibird: 1 (Thesp)
Zindaras: 1 (Patrick)

Not voting: Ether Fritzler Glork MgM MrBuddyLee Nightfall Zindaras

We only need 5 for a lynch!

[Thesp]

Tonight, I'm a bit preoccupied with other stuff, but I'll take this moment to

FOS

everyone who had a chance to hammer Thesp and didn't do it.

You might not think he's scummy, but a no-lynch is more harmful than any lynch could be. Especially when the chance he's got a power role is very very small.

I'm not sure this is accurate, particularly given that we had an even number yesterday.

[Patrick]

I think that's an incredibly lazy assessment Mgm.

[Mgm]

A lynch would've given us useful information whereas the murder of Adele tells us nothing we didn't know already. A lynch would've given us the chance to analyse the wagon.

[Glork]

Alright, thoughts as I progress:

Page 1-2: Glork+Thesp mutual defense of "pro-town"ness. Not much to say about that... I didn't really get the reactions I was hoping for. The closest I got was "I thought Glork buses his scumbuddies, not defends them" from Patrick.

Page 2: Early miniwagon on Thesp. CES and Zindie make a pact to go after Thesp and then SV. This kind of behavior is pretty typical of CES... not so much for Zindie.

Post 45: AndrewS's No-Lynch suggestion. Ugh. What a terrible idea. He rightfully picked up some suspicion for that one. CES, Zindie, Adele all FoS/Vote him. Patrick calls it "interesting" and SV asks if he's new (in case he didn't know why No Lynch D1 is a bad idea, I presume). (Ensuing posts, Page 2-3.)

52, 54: MBL calls Patrick town, Glork scum, switches to Glork.

56: AndrewS defends himself by saying he assumed that nobody would slip up and make a mistake. "Apparently I was wrong." Yeah...

SV switches to Glork in 57, Thesp affirms his vote for Andrew in 59, Glork asks MBL why he's scum in 61.

Post 65 is interesting. Ether votes for AndrewS... but not for the suggestion itself. She votes for him because he wasn't expecting to be FoS'd for it. That seems a little awkward to me. Ether, did you actually find AndrewS

scummy

for not expecting to be FoS'd?

71: AndrewS looking for reactions. He doesn't say anything about what he expected his reactions to be, though. Maybe this is what Ether was hitting on. I don't find "not expecting FoSes" to be scummy, though. Just moronic.

CDB jumps on the FoS: AndrewS wagon in 73. Adele doesn't particularly like the "I was looking for reactions" excuse in 74. Patrick is neutral towards AndrewS in 76.

Thesp accuses CDB of being Andrew's scumbuddy in 79. Could you explain this, Thesp? I'm not seeing what you were apparently seeing.

Glork puts AndrewS at 4 votes, IH pops in to put him at 5 (noting lynch -3). CES makes it -2 and tells Zindie to join him. This is something I *do* find a bit alarming. CES, did you want Andrew lynched at that point? If so, why? What did you think of the wagon on AndrewS at the time? What did you hope to accomplish if you didn't want him lynched?

MGM votes for CES for being talkative in 84. Why a random vote at that stage?
Okay, not random as indicated in 86. Calls CES more lurky as town, more active as scum. I tend to disagree with that assessment.

Zindie balks at voting AndrewS, saying he wasn't going to follow CES wherever, and he didn't want to quicklynch him on Page 4.

AndrewS moves to Adele in 92. He also grills CES on why he would propose such a plan other than for information-gathering. CES objects by merely pointing out that it's completely counterproductive to even suggest such a plan. Andrew accuses CES of avoiding the question, CES indicates fishing for investigation as GF, "pretend to" incite reactions, says he doesn't think Andrew's intent is relevant. AndrewS basically OMGUSes him for that last comment.

99: IH basically says "wow, Andrew, nothing but WIFOM here. 'Why do it if it's so suspicious?' Dislikes Andrew's plan." Adele reaffirms her position in 100.

Post 101: Ether moves to IH, after summarizing the interaction between Andrew and those who attacked him. Ether also points out that she is "watching" MGM/Adele. She doesn't seem to see the WIFOM (though it is clearly there: "Citing a horrible plan and thrusting myself into the spotlight is a horrible idea as scum. Why would I do it if I were scum?"). Appeals to SV for thoughts, citing 53/57.
Now... this doesn't make any sense to me. Ether first votes AndrewS because he didn't expect people to be suspicious of him. When he 'explains himself' by saying that he thought that because scum don't do silly things like that (WIFOM, and pointedly wrong), people accuse him of using WIFOM and... being wrong. Yet Ether

doesn't

like those reactions? That's something of a 180, it seems.

Zindie points out the WIFOM in Post 104. He also says that actually pursuing a lynch such as the one on AndrewS likely hits a townie. Nevertheless, he never even considers the possibility that if this is a fast wagon on a Townie for shoddy reasoining, there

just might be scum on that wagon.

Pro-town Zindie, in my experience, is usually much more observant and forceful. I would think that Zindie would include something along the lines of "and if this wagon is bogus, there's probably scum somewhere on it." Nothing, though.

Post 106: MGM doesn't understand why Zindie's "I think it's WIFOM" does not lead to "I think we should lynch Andrew." Sadly enough, many townies use WIFOM logic, too. I don't see how Zindie did anything wrong there. He also tacks on an FoS: Andrew in Post 107.

Post 108: Patrick thinks Andrew is more likely to be pro-town, based on the wagon. He also asks a question to the wagoners/attackers about why AndrewScum would vote No-Lynch. Like Zindie, though, he fails to address any potential scumbags who might have fueled this bad wagon.

Glork votes CES in 109. Andrew joins in 110, SV jumps on in 111 -- SV expands by saying "I think the people who attacked AndrewS are likely scum."

Zindie, 113: "Town also use WIFOM" to MGM.
Patrick, 114: "I think the WIFOM-callers are probably scum." Agrees with Ether, effectively. That's a strange conclusion with which to agree.

116: MGM, quoting Patrick's "I don't like hte AndrewWagon speed," steps out and defends CES due to wagon-speed. Note that the second two voters -- AndrewS and SV -- were both pro-town. This reminds me

VERY

much of a scenario that happened in Lights Out 1. A very quick wagon formed against JSexton (Pro-town), and Glork (Pro-Town) noted it and jumped on one of the wagoners (Logicticus, Scum). Draygn_Mage (Scum) steps in and makes

this post

, effectively saying "But the wagon on Logic popped up, too!" That's

disturbingly

similar. Possible MGM-CES connection has been logged and noted (yes, despite MGM having an innocent investigation on him... we know there's a GF out there somewhere.)

CES's reply to SV in 117 does not make me happy. His defense is "if you don't like Andrew's attackers, why are you voting me? I didn't attack him." So CES is basically saying "I just jumped the wagon 'cause I could." That is not any better. In fact, it just maybe worse, because if a mislynch on Andrew happens, players can cite the attackers and not CES.

119: Thesp cites a prime example of scum suggesting no-lynch, getting attacked, and getting out of it "because scum don't ever do that." Strangely applicable.

Glork suggests No-Lynch, votes No Lynch, says that night actions help give the town info. Glork was joking, but some players: Adele believes him, Patrick asks why it's helpful, CDB says he doesn't think Glork is being helpful. (Posts 120-128)

In Post 128, CDB also jumps on AndrewS, citing the WIFOM. He seems to be a little late joining the wagon, and he accuses Andrew of being scum for it

after

a few players pointed out how townies use WIFOM a lot, too, and how it's probably a non-tell. Strange, at best.

IH pops in with a few points: Nightfall needs to post, Glork's making a point, he disagrees with "No Lynch suggestion is a null tell," doesn't like Ether's 102. Basically, he makes a really good post when I look at it now. Hindsight, etc.

134, MGM votes Glork for the No-Lynch suggestion. Glork OMGUSes him "for not paying attention" and cites IH.

IH and Andrew spar for a bit, through the end of Page 6.

Hum. Post 150 by Patrick bothers me. Patrick asserts that he said opportunistic scum were on AndrewS's wagon (which he never made explicit, as I pointed out). Yet through this time, his vote continues to sit on Thesp -- a vote which was

completely random, as it was the very first post of the game.

Furthermore, Patrick never named Thesp at all... I will grant that Thesp did say "the WIFOM argument is crap," but he backed it with solid evidence of why this is true, citing an example from a game in which experienced scum did exactly what he was accusing Andrew of doing.

Immediately thereafter, though, Thesp continues to go after AndrewS for basically the same thing that Patrick just called scummy. Now I'm getting conflicting suspicions. Patrick seemed a little lazy to me just now, but I understand the point he is making, and Thesp pushed this lynch quite hard. I could actually see Thesp+CDB as a scumgroup right now. CDB put that post-wagon wagon vote on Andrew, and Thesp kept fueling the fire by attacking Andrew incessantly. Thesp, figuring he was going down, could take the opportunity to do a little distancing. I'll have to think on this theory.

161: "I agree with Thesp." Still seems to think I was serious with my NL suggestion.
IH agrees with Thesp, too.

Post 163, Nightfall adds another FoS to Andrew. Claims he hasn't been able to follow the thread properly.

Ether's next post is 170. She affirms the neutrality of her stance towards AndrewS, says that people who voted him did it "for bullshit reasons." She says something interesting -- she wants IH to explain how voting for No Lynch equates to an actual No-Lynch. I would argue that, unless you make it clear that you are not serious (Page 1-2, my NL vote, etc.), a vote for something is an indicator that you want that something to happen. In games which have had mayorial elections, voting for the Mayor means "I would support this person as mayor." In most game situations, a vote for a player means "I want to see this player lynched." Similarly, a vote for No-Lynch would seem to indicate "I want us to No-Lynch" unless (or until) indicated otherwise. The second half of her post seems to be spammy responses to comments by other players.

In Post 173, MGM joins the "Andrew/Glork wagoners are scummier than Andrew/Glork."
...

Post 174 interests me, too. He goes from Thesp (WIFOM attacker of Andrew) to IH for "cruising" and for

sucking up to Thesp.

I've seen the "I think X is scummy, but I also think Y is scummy for sucking up to X" attitude before, but I don't like it. Patrick also goads MGM into looking at IH, by saying "if you think Andrew's wagoners are scummy, you should look at IH."



So there are my assorted thoughts through Page 7. I will sum up my own personal suspicions/conclusions in a bit, and I will continue with my analysis of the game later this evening. Right now, I have a Scrabble game to play. I haven't tried to keep this "objective" per se, but I think I've tried to separate "X says blahblahblah" from "I think this is scummy."

Read and enjoy.

[Mgm]

Worse, Patrick's was on MGM, and Patrick checked in to discuss but chose not to move his vote. His attempt to coast past that error on his part without an apology makes him AND Thesp look a little suspect, and makes Zindy look a little less suspicious. I would expect the difficulty finishing off Thesp if there were two scum laying off his wagon end of day yesterday.

Why would I apologise for it? What error am I supposed to have made that I'm trying to coast past?

You might have had doubts about Thesp's guilt that made you decide not to vote him - scummy in my eyes, but opinions differ. What's really scummy is keeping your vote on a cop-investigated player (aka me). Keeping your vote there wasn't helping in securing a scum lynch.

Vote:Patrick

for not using his vote to help secure a useful lynch (any lynch other than myself).

FOS: Fritzler

. I agree with MrBuddyLee that not hammering is decidedly non-Fritz-like.

[Mgm]

I still got my eye on Thesp and Glork by the way...

[Zindaras]

There's a godfather in this game and we know it? Damn, I just know I should've read this all more carefully.

Glork, I do do things like I did with Cessy. For one, because it's funny. For two, because it incites reactions.

Post 104...yeah, I probably should've asserted that. You'll note that when I finally get aronund to rereading the game and I post a big post, that I do actually point out the three-posts-three-vote wagon on AndrewS.

What I also find odd is that you did a lot of 'wagoning Day 1, and I remember you saying that you wanted to get reactions and stuff, but I don't see that in your little analysis.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES makes it -2 and tells Zindie to join him. This is something I *do* find a bit alarming. CES, did you want Andrew lynched at that point? If so, why? What did you think of the wagon on AndrewS at the time? What did you hope to accomplish if you didn't want him lynched?

Dude, I saw a bandwagon, so I hopped on. If you really want to know, I certainly wasn't a fan of the whole no lynch suggestion(for corroboration, I went after Channel over a similar suggestion in Open 10), so I felt Andrew would make a pretty decent lynch. Of course I didn't really want a page 4 lynch or anything, but this town is responsible to the extent that I can just do whatever I want anyhow.

Calls CES more lurky as town, more active as scum. I tend to disagree with that assessment.

His assessment, although faulty, does make sense. Based on his experiences with me, it's a fairly understandable one, I'd say.

[Nightfall]

*Want an answer before moving on*

1>

Hm. I take it there's no mason group if Adele's claim holds true.

Unvote, Vote: Thesp

Really? If there are masons in this game, you think Adele would have to be one?

[MrBuddyLee]

I find it intriguing. I don't think Fritzler is scum (in particular, in your initial paragraph for both of us to be scum would require unusual interaction in thread).

Would you be referring to this interaction:

I still think he's town for other outweighing reasons that I don't care to divulge.

or one of the interactions where Fritz says you're a terrible lynch? Please clarify, Thesp, cause your comment looks like the kind of flippant thing a partner of Fritz would say to brush past his blatant protection of you if you're both scum. I see no unusual interaction between the two of you that indicates there's no way you're aligned.

I also think "difficulty finishing me off" yesterday may be attribued to townies having genuine concerns about not lynching me, timing, or a combination thereof. Also note while you argue there might be "difficulty finishing off Thesp if there were two scum laying off his wagon end of day yesterday", inversely it would have been easier for scum to have finished me off

if they weren't already on it

. (I doubt scum would have gotten much serious attention yesterday if they'd placed the final vote on me, using the need fir

some

lynch as an excuse.) Notably, that notches down a bit of suspicion of Ether for not voting me.

OK wait. So the most reasonable explanation is that you're town and all three scum were already on your wagon, and the remaining five or six townies all had genuine doubts about your guilt to the point of foregoing a lynch altogether? (Making them look FOSable in the process) Cause the way I see it, it's much more likely that you're scum and your scumpartners weren't willing to pile on. Ether in particular REALLY tried to make it sound like she was all set to hop aboard your train, and then just inexplicably DIDN'T. And Fritzler and Patrick appeared so paralyzed by the situation that they didn't even bother to move their votes off the cop and her confirmed innocent because they had two alternatives:

1) Move off and onto YOU.
2) Move off and onto someone we had no chance of lynching, which would make them look nearly as bad.

Town wouldn't worry about appearances as much and would move the vote, imo. One of those two could be an accident, TWO in the same 48 hour span is WAY too coincidental, which would imply that you're scum with at least one of the three of them.

We're talking about players here who hammer for a living, and often for kicks. The fact that they didn't, and behaved the way they did, stinks to high hell, which does not reflect well upon you, Thesp.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Nightfall, the town gets 3 non-townie roles. Spectrumvoid filled the first slot, Adele the second. As you need 2 masons to make a masonry, the town doesn't have a mason group.

[Nightfall]

Nightfall, the town gets 3 non-townie roles. Spectrumvoid filled the first slot, Adele the second. As you need 2 masons to make a masonry, the town doesn't have a mason group.

Thank you.

With that I will give a big

FOS: Fritz

The only reason I didn't press more on fritz the other day was because I thought he made a hint at a mason claim.

[Patrick]

You might have had doubts about Thesp's guilt that made you decide not to vote him - scummy in my eyes, but opinions differ. What's really scummy is keeping your vote on a cop-investigated player (aka me). Keeping your vote there wasn't helping in securing a scum lynch.

Vote:Patrick for not using his vote to help secure a useful lynch (any lynch other than myself).

FOS: Fritzler. I agree with MrBuddyLee that not hammering is decidedly non-Fritz-like.

This is nonsense. Are you suggesting that if I had taken my vote off you (and done nothing else with it) you would be happier about me? Yes I left my vote on you, but not because I planned on lynching you. At that point, there was no real difference between not voting, voting you, voting MBL, voting Glork, voting Nightfall, voting CES or anyone else who was never going to be lynched anyway. It was just that I wasn't sure I wanted to vote for Thesp. It's also interesting that you're not voting or FoSing Ether for this. I went to bed about 2 am (7.5 hours before deadline if I remember correctly) and I was actually expecting Ether to hammer Thesp. I'm not saying it's especially scummy than she didn't, just that I found it surprising. Please explain why you've voted me, and FoSed Fritz, yet you've said nothing about Ether and MBL. Yes, MBL could also have hammered. And now he pops up and is critisising others for not doing so.

MBL - Please explain ASAP why you're critisising people who didn't hammer Thesp, even though you didn't hammer him either. Your Ether vote was pretty useless; it's not as if she was ever going to be lynched when it was within her power to hammer Thesp.

[Patrick]

Hum. Post 150 by Patrick bothers me. Patrick asserts that he said opportunistic scum were on AndrewS's wagon (which he never made explicit, as I pointed out). Yet through this time, his vote continues to sit on Thesp -- a vote which was completely random, as it was the very first post of the game. Furthermore, Patrick never named Thesp at all... I will grant that Thesp did say "the WIFOM argument is crap," but he backed it with solid evidence of why this is true, citing an example from a game in which experienced scum did exactly what he was accusing Andrew of doing.

Ok. I think your first complaint here is nitpicking. Even if I didn't say in big red letters "There are oppotunistic scum on Andrew's wagon," I think it was pretty clear what I was thinking. I don't see it as a big deal that my vote stayed on Thesp for a while. Do you have a problem with my waiting a little and deciding where to put my vote? I observed the wagon, then decided I didn't like IH.

I wasn't particularly suspicious of Thesp at that point. As has already been noted, he always seems to play this way. I don't like his ideas about pretty much killing the first guy you become suspicious of in double quick time, but it's not scummy if he's always like that. I also generally find ppl who just hop along for the ride scummier than ppl who start attacks with actual reason.

[MrBuddyLee]

Please explain why you've voted me, and FoSed Fritz, yet you've said nothing about Ether and MBL. Yes, MBL could also have hammered. And now he pops up and is critisising others for not doing so.

MBL - Please explain ASAP why you're critisising people who didn't hammer Thesp, even though you didn't hammer him either. Your Ether vote was pretty useless; it's not as if she was ever going to be lynched when it was within her power to hammer Thesp.

This looks REALLY bad, Patrick. I could ask you in a pedantic manner to explain the differences between the various failures-to-hammer, but it's so flagrantly obvious at this point that I won't beat the dead horse.

As for my own failure to hammer, I'm a conservative player and would generally prefer to no-lynch rather than hammer a good player I'm not certain enough is scum. I tend to believe that scum will be caught by more aggressive means and not by HOPING a lynch is successful. If Thesp is town, he'd be a valuable asset to lose, and that factors in as well.

My Ether vote useless? That's positively laughable and a pretty downright scummy thing for you to say, Patrick. Considering that Ether was the 2nd leading vote-getter at the time, you'd have to be implying that in general, everyone should abandon the #2 to pile on the #1 wagon at the end of a day or else their vote's useless and scummy. I'll also note that Thesp slipped onto the Etherwagon end of day, which could have easily been distancing in case he got hammered as scum, AND Ether avoided hammering Thesp even though she said she probably would.

Useless vote? Hugely disproportionate, reaching attack by you, Patrick. To insinuate that I lose my right to attack by not hammering OR that the various failures to hammer are equivalent in any way is bizarre.

[Patrick]

As for my own failure to hammer, I'm a conservative player and would generally prefer to no-lynch rather than hammer a good player I'm not certain enough is scum.

Same here. I'm not getting what I'm supposed to have done wrong.

My Ether vote useless? That's positively laughable and a pretty downright scummy thing for you to say, Patrick. Considering that Ether was the 2nd leading vote-getter at the time, you'd have to be implying that in general, everyone should abandon the #2 to pile on the #1 wagon at the end of a day or else their vote's useless and scummy.

I'm not implying that in general everyone should abandon a number 2 wagon near the end of the day. I said that Ether was not going to be lynched if it was within her power to hammer Thesp. Pretty simple really. I would say the chances of an Ether lynch at that stage were negligable.

Useless vote? Hugely disproportionate, reaching attack by you, Patrick. To insinuate that I lose my right to attack by not hammering OR that the various failures to hammer are equivalent in any way is bizarre.

Not really an attack in the sense of find you scummy. But I don't agree with alot of your observations today. You haven't shown any huge difference between my lack of hammer and yours, and my reason is pretty much the same as yours. Fritzlers lack of hammer doesn't strike me as remarkable; he was repeating over and over again that Thesp was a terrible lynch. Why would he hammer him? Ether differs in the sense that she said she'd hammer.

[Glork]

Well I got wrecked in Scrabble. Flooded with vowels for the loss. Only managed one bingo, with "DESCENT."

Okay... so CES, Zindie, Thesp, Patrick, Ether, MGM, and CDB have all done things that are noteworthy as possible scum-actions in my mind.

I see a potential MGM-CES link, Thesp+CDB link. Zindie and Ether probably seem the scummiest overall to me, right now.

**EDIT** I should point out that I do ask specific questions of some players. No, I am not bolding them or making them stand out in some way. I expect each and every one of you to read through my analyses and find the questions yourselves. After a few days, I will repeat unanswered questions and accompany them with a summary FoS, or quite possibly a vote. You have been warned.

Now, moving on to Page 8...

The first line in Post 175 looks strangely pro-town. The rest of it is rather meh.

182 by Fritzler is pretty useless. Go figure.

192 by IH might be worth looking at. Points out Ether's staunch defense of AndrewS, reiterates his stance towards the AndrewWagon, IGMEO Thesp and MGM.

Post 195, Nightfall questions Andrew again, but moves to Ether -- also doesn't like her defense of Andrew. He still FoSes Andrew, though.

Glork FoSes IH in large, underlined letters in 196 -- keeping with the "Thesp is infallible" theme. I really should have cut that out by now.

197, Thesp still seems to think that CDB is Andrew's scumbuddy. He still hasn't named a single reason for it. This perturbs me. He also calls Nightfall scum for "Deflecting the AndrewS wagon."

199, Patrick agrees with Thesp with regards to Nightfall -- also feels Nightfall misrepresented Ether.

201, IH thinks Ether is scummy only if AndrewS is scum. Glork explains in 202 that scum will often defend townies very staunchly to get brownie points (both with that townie, and with the rest of the town later on). Thesp says basically the exact same thing in a virtual simulpost.

MBL finally steps in again in Post 206. CES more active than usual (because he smells blood), Andrew's behavior is mostly null, notes that CDB is late to join the "WIFOM Wagon" on Andrew (something I noted in Part 1 of my re-read), also says CDB "avoided" the wagon earlier. I'll have to check on the accuracy of that statement, but it sounds about right. Patrick "reaching," but then sounds pro-town. SV "suspect" protection of Andrew (Ether did same -- possible MBL-Ether link noted). However "Thesp strings up Andrew in the guise of a lesson" sounds remarkably accurate to me. Notes Glork's protection of Andrew, says I'm not "in flippant mode." IH town until reaching against Ether (protecting Ether? more possible connections...). Supports/Agrees with Ether. (Interesting.) Interesting interpretation of MGM -- claims that MGM assumes Glork/Andrew to be pro-town. Mind explaining this, MBL?
"Thin" contribution from Nightfall. I find it odd that he says Nightfall votes Ether for protecting Andrew without indicating whether he thinks either is scum. He VOTES for Ether and FOSes Andrew. What the hell do you

think

he's thinking?
Only one note on Adele, none on Zindie.

Glork votes Ether in 207. MGM unvotes Glork in 208, tries to make something of a peace with Andrew.

Patrick's 210. IH suspect, sucking up to Thesp. Odd stance on Thesp -- agrees with "string up under guise of lesson" but does not think Thesp is scum. Thinks SV flip-flopped, doesn't get MGM, wants to know where Ether-hate is coming from (names Glork specifically). Glork flatly refuses in 211.

Re: Thesp, Post 217: Whatever happened to Nightfall as the last scum?
CES asks who the second one was (CDB), Patrick points out that Thesp has named four people, CES goes after Patrick for the "Nightfall is scum" comment. Odd interaction.

Post 224, Zindie's summary post. SV scum, Ether Scummy but then less scummy later on, blahblah... but Zindaras doesn't substantiate these suspicions or votes of support very well. He even calls CES and MGM town based on being Dutch, which shows a

distinct

lack of interest. MGM had picked up several votes, and CES had a short mini-wagon and some mild suspicions. Zindaras, can you go back and pick out some of the reasons you had these early-ish impressions? I find your contributions disturbingly lacking

Post 225, Patrick points out that Zindie's "Patrick needs to post more" stance is both hypocritical and flat-out

incorrect.

Post 226, Thesp explains his Nightfall/MBL as the third scum thing and states that he's got "an alternate thory" which also involves AndrewS being scum. Even though both of these theories turned out false, I am

very

curious to know what this other theory was. Thesp, explain, please.

IH's Post 235, he points at MGM -- wishy-washy, keeps "misreading" the game.
He expands in Post 242. I think he makes some very good points. Interested to see MGM's response.

Nightfall also presented "at least one scum of Ether/AndrewS," for which Patrick asks clarification. Nightfall not sure about Thesp, but seems intimidated by Thesp as indicated in Post 248. Odd.

Post 253, Ether agrees with my FoS of IH -- odd, considering my FoS was a complete joke based only on him IGMEOYing Thesp. (I think I pointed this out at the time, though.) Doesn't like MGM, but likes IH less. Reasons, Ether? Reasons are always nice. The wording "loathe Andrew's wagoners more than I loathe Andrew" seems strange... doesn't like Andrew, but likes the wagoners less. An awful lot of middle-ground being taken here.

Thesp, Fritz want day to end in 256/257. Glork die-rolls in 258, rolls again when the dice pick Thesp, votes SV based on die-roll.

MBL climbs aboard in Post 261, stating that SV is avoiding doing anything significant. Says he may be back on MGM. Adele hops on in 262, Zindars in 263. Guarantee you right now that one of MBL/Zindaras is scum. Currently leaning towards Zindaras.

Glork pokes at Zindie in 265, 266. Zindie defends himself from 266 in Post 268, saying "wagoning like this is scummy except this time." Uh huh. Right.

Quick note on my 270. MBL's post made me lol because it's techincally true. After a string of deaths within one night of entering a game, I have tried being intentionally useless early so that I can survive later on to do some analysis. This is that analysis.

More CES pointless wagoning in 271. Now that that game is over, I can say that this is starting to remind me of how he behaved in Space Monkeys. CES may do this "reckless wagoning" thing all the time, but I think I smell a rat this time.

The town's bandwagoning based on a random number Glork pulled up? Apparently so. It's odd how somebody with just an iota of suspicion could recieve FIVE votes in the span of like TWELVE posts. Glork, Adele, MBL, Zindaras, CES. Adele was pro-town. I could

easily

see two scums among MBL, Glork, Zindie, CES. Possibly just one, though. Suggest lynching Zindie.

Post 278 by Zindie doesn't make me any happier. We know that you think SV is scum. You've said it multiple times. Yet, to my knowledge, you NEVER stated

WHY

you thought SV was scum. Go back and look at her early posts and explain to me WHY you thought she was scum back then.

Ether's 284: Defends her stance on Andrew, attacks MBL's Post 261. Not sure what to make of that one.

End of Page 12, SV basically votes Andrew out of self-preservation.

MBL to Patrick in 303, offers no reason when Patrick asks why.
Glork offers an explanation in 307.

309, Patrick trying to be "realistic" in not getting an IH-lynch in three days. Postulates MBL+AndrewS as a scum pair.

Glork doesn't find Andrew all that scummy in 315.

>>SIDENOTE: I'm getting lazy. I'll finish D1 and call it a night. I probably need to check some of my other games anyway.<<

IH's 322, asks some questions of Nightfall. Response should be interesting.
He votes SV in 332, asks for claim, still wants to lynch MGM, though.

MGM goes to Andrew in 333, joining the wagon he "like

best."

Nightfall promises post tomorrow in 335, in response to IH. Andrew doesn't like that he says "I'll post <<later>>" too much. Valid point, I guess.

MBL seems to be reaching a bit in 343, when he goes at MGM. He also asks Andrew what Andrew thinks of SV.

Glork goes to Andrew, says to vig IH (224). CES to Andrew in 225. CDB: "Should have been joining Andrew to begin with" in 226.

253: Patrick asks why Glork voted Andrew if he didn't think Andrew was scum. Glrok replies by saying he wanted to wagon somebody.

>>This is the second time that I've done something completely ridiculous, only to have players fall in line right behind me. I sortof wonder if I was being set up by the wagoniness there. Granted, the AndrewVote was pretty bad. I think I'll look at who went after me early in D2 and see how I feel about those players.<<

Thesp wants SV to vig CDB in 358.

Still

no reasoning as to why CDB should die.

360, Zindie laments not killing SV for dumb/spammy reasons (this is beginning to annoy me, Zinds), asks if there can be SKs. Combine with his recent "wait, there's a GF?" post, and he is either not paying any attention to the setup, or he is doing a very good job of pretending not to pay attention.

Glork to MGM in 364, still wants IH vigged.

365: MBL points out apparent flip-flop from Ether.

Post 366: Nightfall waltzes in with post analyses on Adele, AndrewS. IIndicates that he wants to do everyone's posts. I like that style. Mass reading/interpretation is good (in case you didn't notice). Read the post yourself, I won't bother summing it up here; it'd take too long.

368, IH being wagoned/vigged "for no reason." Moves to MGM.

MGM is also not paying attention in Post 375. This seems to be a running theme for both him and Zindaras.
Adele points it out, MGM explains that he looked at the deck but not the initial post. I can accept that for now.

Adele/CES have a spat about what the Vig should do as far as choosing/announcing a target. Glork supports CES, says he'd be okay with vigging Adele.

SV announces she will vig IH.

394 by MGM is a pretty big misrepresentation. The town is clearly undecided on anything at this point, so his "IH is being vigged because he is second in line to be lynched, so this is what the town wants" explanation is complete and utter crap. I'm not giving up on him being the GF possibly because MGM has looked bad to me. I donno yet, though. Still contemplating.

395 sent up a flag, and I'm not sure why. He finds IH scummy on a vibe, thinks that IH's earlier "igmeoy:thesp" was to satisfy Pat's "you're sucking up to Thesp" notion. I think Patrick overpresents his "case" against IH.

Zinde onto IH in 396. Apparently he doesn't notice that IH is slated to be vigged. Not a helpful post at all. He's lazy and not paying attention.

MBL inserts his support for an IH killing very vaguely in 397. Says he's not being "aggressively insightful" as usual, and calls him "flippant," "mealy-mouthed." Still prefers MGM, and says IH/MGM are probably not scum together.

Fritz's 402 dosen't make me very happy.

Hmm... If you are reading these posts, please post "I like ____" in your next post, filling in the blank with whatever you think is appropriate. I am curious to see who's actually bothering to utilize my gigantic analysis posts.

403, Nightfall has PBPAs alphabetically through Glork.

Ether to Nightfall in 407, saying she doesn't get his new posting style. Ether: Posting summaries of what people are saying is almost always helpful, as long as it's accurate and reasonably complete. It aids greatly in re-reading. I personally will be referring to these posts of mine as long as I'm alive in this game, because I don't want to sort through the entire thread unless I need to, as new information arises. I would assume at this point that Nightfall would want to give analyses/thoughts of players as he finishes his PBPAs. I don't get what's

not

to like about it. An interesting quote from the end of this post:

(Aside from that, I don't really like Andrew's behavior and I'd hammer him at deadline if it came to it.

Sound reminiscent of D2 when she said she'd hammer Thesp? Hmm.

***Patrick-IH spat continues in 412. I'm getting tired of reading at this point. I am asterisking this post solely so that I can read over it in detail. This is really more a note-to-self than anything else.

413, Patrick not convinced by case against MGM, and he takes a brief look at CDB, calling his efforts "underwhelming."

Thesp "fairly uncertain" regarding MGM in 414.

Zindie/CES still arguing semantics/purpose of voting an alleged vig target. I find this distracting and uninteresting. It is not helping to find scum. There have been an awful lot of Zindie-CES interactions. I wonder if something might be up between them.

Fritz, 425 -- "posts too long," though he "tried to contribute."

426: Actual analysis from Nightfall (on AndrewS). Lots of words, nothing really profound (says the pot to the kettle). Definitely indicates that he thinks Andrew is lessthangood.

Glork hammah's in 434 (note to self: Page 18).



Okay, so right now I'm digging Zindaras the most, along with CES.

Vote: Zindaras, FoS: CES

for now. More to come tomorrow, or possibly later tonight if my mind clears up a bit.

[Glork]

Holy crap, that post took an hour and a half to write.

[Fritzler]

Based on the fact that she told us she investigated mgm, I think she investigated mgm.

:faceplant:

sorry im a retard

[Fritzler]

Fritz, you hammer, it's your thing. Why the hesitation to hammer Thesp?

FOS: Fritzler

. I agree with MrBuddyLee that not hammering is decidedly non-Fritz-like.

With that I will give a big

FOS: Fritz

The only reason I didn't press more on fritz the other day was because I thought he made a hint at a mason claim.

normally you guys are whining about how im too lynch happy and im trying to play better, and become a better less shticked player, and you want to punish me? That's like lynching a lurker for actually trying to contribute. It should be rewarded.

[Glork]

But there's a difference bewteen being lynch-happy and letting a deadline run out because you don't want to lynch.


Just answer these few questions for now, Fritz: Did you prefer No-Lynch over lynching Thesp? If so, why? If not, why did you not hammer near deadline?

[Patrick]

To comment on a few things concerning me then.

Patrick's 210. IH suspect, sucking up to Thesp. Odd stance on Thesp -- agrees with "string up under guise of lesson" but does not think Thesp is scum. Thinks SV flip-flopped, doesn't get MGM, wants to know where Ether-hate is coming from (names Glork specifically). Glork flatly refuses in 211.

I believe I've repeated my meta stance on Thesp more than once in this game. I have often seen Thesp go after players like that, as though he doesn't realise that sometimes pro town players may use flawed logic as well. So while I disliked the way he went about it, and found it to be close to bullying at times, I didn't find it scummy.

395 sent up a flag, and I'm not sure why. He finds IH scummy on a vibe, thinks that IH's earlier "igmeoy:thesp" was to satisfy Pat's "you're sucking up to Thesp" notion. I think Patrick overpresents his "case" against IH.

Whatever. Newbie 289 is the game in which he did this as scum if you're interested. Can't really reply to your red flag.

[Fritzler]

But there's a difference bewteen being lynch-happy and letting a deadline run out because you don't want to lynch.


Just answer these few questions for now, Fritz: Did you prefer No-Lynch over lynching Thesp? If so, why? If not, why did you not hammer near deadline?

yes, cuz he's not scum and you guys are retarded