Mini 1505: N is for Normal (game over)

[ICEninja]

Hello everybody!

Some things I want to say:

No lying about your role.

This. If you're a VT and you claim power role I will pretty much hate you.

Also note this game has one of my favorite rulesets, being pretty intense about activity. Please do commit to posting regularly, as day lengths aren't super long and nights are quick. My activity level tends to be pretty high.

I really like how this game has advanced so far. I agree with Thor's assessment that Axxle was scum hunting and Guthrie made a bad push against it.

Bastion's point of busing is wrong. If he used the word distancing, he's absolutely right. However, to say that two players are distancing he'd have to have a scum read on BOTH of them, or be looking back at interactions between a living player and a confirmed dead scum. I don't like this allegation one bit.

Vote: Sir Bastion

. Ironically, I'd be OK voting for Guthrie as well, whom Bastion is voting for, but my scum reads on them are independent of each other.

[ICEninja]

I don't have QUITE as much time this morning to address everything that happened considering how quick this game has moved in a short time so I'll address each point briefly, as I see it. I'll comb through everything later to put a more cohesive case together on who I believe are the most likely scum(s).

assuming I dont?

As of post 16 I'm almost positive that a town player wouldn't have a scum read on both of them. DO YOU?

I nodded along with everything zakk said in post 43.

Garmr's response is mostly "lol that's funny!" which I don't like.

I have no idea what to think of Slar's first post, I'm going to chalk it up to satire regarding an earlier FOS.

Guthrie's post 54 is making me twitch a bit. I called him out in that post and he's giving me a town read for it. He also didn't touch on any parts of that post that were directed towards him. Feels like it could be a way to buddy me or something. I can't quite put my finger on it but it's tinging my gut scumdar. The rest of the post was good though.

Macros is making me twitch, too. I'm not quite sure how to feel about his recent posts. I'll need to see a legit case out of him.

For the record I find Thor's call for a speed lynch to be perfectly reasonable. I also think people calling him out on it is perfectly understandable, but I won't because I find it a town move. Thor seems to be trying pretty hard to control and direct town here, but IIRC he's a pretty aggressive player either way.

The game opened yesterday.

Bad excuse is bad. If we all used this then no progress would be made. There are TONS of things worth commenting on.

I iz ninja.

*Cough*

Ok, after a quick re-read i'd be very happy with a Bastion wagon. I still can't get over the fact that he votes me for bussing. Makes no sense, and just seems like he is looking for an excuse to create a wagon on me.

This is really ticking my gut scumdar, too. Something about "oh yeah you guys are right we should totally lynch this guy for something he did on page 1, after a quick re-read of course" makes me hesitate on my current vote.

At a quick thought I'm still fine with where my vote is, though. More analysis less stream of thought to come later.

[ICEninja]

I'm assuming, Thor, that your post 92 was all directed at me.

Macros, as of my original post, had been convoluted and doing weird things because of posting from his phone. Honestly I've posted from my phone before and it wasn't that hard. I used the verbiage "makes me twitch" as opposed to "think he's scum" because I wasn't quite sure what to make of it.

As for your comment about me directed towards Slandaar, I don't like how you said I let him off too easy. Competing wagons are great but it is too early to be calling half the players scum. He reads the scummy side of null to me at this point, and since a lot of what he's done so far seems to be (a dry sarcastic form of) humor, I've long since retired calling someone out as scum for trying to be funny their first couple posts. Granted he hasn't really contributed much and his attack was weak so I'm not liking him for town, but I'm not convinced that I should throw a vote down on him.

Now I actually really don't like Macros's more recent posts. While his observations and points are alright, he outright states two players he's suspecting and yet votes for no one. This reads to me as leaving his options open instead of pressuring players. Bad.

Albert's ISO is really really bothering me though. There's no content, there's no scum hunting, and apparently the only player in this game who hasn't town-told is Slandaar?

Nope, that's really bad. Maxous at least put a reason for his Slandaar vote, but Albert has nothing.

Unvote, Vote Albert B. Rampage

.

Even as I said I don't want to, I find myself being suspicious of half the town right now. Will you town players stop acting like scum, dammit?

[ICEninja]

Actually I went back and read Slandaar's content again more closely. I like his reasoning for his vote. He seems townish to me.

The reasons he give for his vote were better than Thor's when he called for a quicklynch. Just saying.

[ICEninja]

Is'nt it apparent that he has theory differences to you?
And you're still calling him scummy over it?

If you scroll down just a teensy bit and read the rest of my post you'll see where I've explained why his theory better suits scum.

Mod, your vote count has Guthrie voting for Axxle. Can you double check that?

[ICEninja]

Well I'm not voting for either Thor or Slandaar today, this looks too much like frustrated town trying to legitimately scum hunt each other.

Garmr is the easy wagon bait. Possibly town Macros (still unsure, but leaning town now) falls for it then Scumbert the Rampage hops on right on schedule.

More ABR votes please.

[ICEninja]

Now how much I will do 3 and 4 depends on my energy in the game.

Energy is looking low right now.

I contribute with my vote and my gut reads, and you will wait until the game gets serious for me to take a proactive approach.

15 minutes later...

Show me your town games, I want to read your meta.

Funny.

Also, I never said it was a scum trap, it's the easy wagon. Scum jump on the easiest person to lynch day 1, which you've done. I haven't insulted anyone, it can even be good scum play if you can do it without being caught. But you got caught.

Also:

On day 1, explaining this makes scum play better, and

makes it easier for other players to meta me.

Isn't this a good thing when you're town?

[ICEninja]

Thor, don't call IceNinja Iec. It's an insult to Iecerint.

Now you're just being rude.

[ICEninja]

Man it's tough to keep up in this game. Once again I'm going to have to be pretty brief about things.

Garmr is all over the place. He's giving off noobtells left and right, which in a game with lots of experienced players, makes him an easy lynch.

I'm starting to get annoyed by the back and forwards that Slandaar is engaging in. And yes it's you, not Thor, you're the one who is tunneling on his points to you not the other way around. Get your tunnel vision off we're not lynching Thor day 1 unless you can bring up some serious evidence that has nothing to do with anything he says about you.

Bastion actually makes a good point in post 168. I'm liking Macros less and less.

And now I'm gradually developing a scum read on Slandaar.

I'm still pretty much happy about where my vote is though. I still want more people to read Albert's ISO so they can realize why he needs more votes.

[ICEninja]

@Ice - how many times have you played/read town Albert?

Half of a day 1, before he flaked.

I understand the hestitation, but I've noticed you're not calling him town while arguing against the wagon.
what is your actual read of Garmr.

You are correct. I'm having a very difficult time reading him, simply because he IS all over the place. His actions, in my eyes, speak more loudly to trying to figure out wtf he's supposed to be doing as opposed to showing me what his alignment is.

Players like this are very easy to build a flimsy case against as scum, ergo I'm more likely to find people who make an easy bandwagon jump to be scum than the person being targeted.

[ICEninja]

I remember that game but not you.

[ICEninja]

I'll look through it a bit and see if you were this useless in that game too.

It doesn't make him town, but it could suggest that a lot of my reasoning for finding him scum is wrong.

[ICEninja]

Albert was busy and behind for much of the game he linked. I don't feel like this example is particularly helpful in showing how he'd behave in a game that he is incredibly active in, particularly during day 1 which he was more or less absent in the example given.

His play was pretty much useless and contentless later in the game even after he caught up, however, so it suggests that he could play like this as town.

Unvote

. I need to think on this a bit.

[ICEninja]

I'm liking Slandaar less and less. I honestly feel like town Slandaar would have taken my advice and actually started to scum hunt, realizing he was locking horns in a dumb fight.

Slandaar could you make a quick succinct bullet point case explaining why people should vote for Thor? Because I'm simply not seeing any good reasons for me to vote him in any of your posts.

I still, even after reviewing things and thinking about things, don't see ABR's play coming from town. I totally understand holding back one's reads, but the fact of the matter is a significant majority of his "content" has absolutely nothing to do with scum hunting. Reading his ISO just demonstrates that he has so little interest in catching scum. It's simply too much to just chalk up to "this is how ABR plays". Town ABR finds scum.

I'll take a look at some players in more detail this weekend and see what I find.

[ICEninja]

Alright I virtually never say things like this, but I think the activity level needs to take a tiny step back. We have several players with fewer than 5 posts, and Thor with 41. Some of which being fairly hefty posts.

I very rarely struggle to keep up in a game, but I feel like I need to devote a chunk of this time 2 or 3 times a day in order to keep current, let alone spending time going back and rereading.

More than 10 posts per real life day is a bit excessive *cough cough*.

[ICEninja]

Alright so now with ABR's post 219 I finally feel like I'm looking at town ABR. And it's actually pretty convincing. I viewed Thor to be townish but after realizing how much town leading Thor has done while still addressing so little outside of Slandaar (just look how much of his ISO is directed specifically to him, it's insane), I'm willing to consider that Thor might indeed be scum here. I'm not willing to vote for him at this point in time, however.

I'm keeping my vote where it is for now. Not liking Garmr too much. Reading a lot of indecisiveness in his posts and he is all over the place as someone mentioned before... in a post... somewhere around here. The wagon on him is justified and I wouldn't mind his lynch today.

That was me, arguing that people are voting for him being all over the place instead of being scummy. You're incredibly guilty of this, looking for the easiest person to vote instead of actually finding scum. Thanks for finally giving me a read on you.

ABR for instance. I'm gonna sheep ninja on this matter, because i've been thinking the same thing while reading the thread.

You obviously aren't paying attention to his more recent play. He made a very meaningful case against Thor, exactly how town ABR plays, and is in direct contradiction to the reasons you're sheeping me for. Bad bad bad.

Vote TCold

. More from me soon, trying to catch up in pieces will still remembering who is who is hard.

[ICEninja]

As for Albert's post post 252, I'll take a look at Thor's posted games myself and see if this holds true.

If it does indeed hold true Thor probably is scum. I don't even like meta defense as it is, unless it's for something very specific.

As hard as I try to read Slandaar's posts, I tend to gloss over them. This circular argument is starting to piss me off.

Macros is pinging my gut scumdar pretty heavily, particularly for post 224. I'm liking Axxle less and less, and Bastion more and more. Garmr is still the "easy lynch" that scum will try to push and I'm suspicious of everyone voting for him, despite having a complete and total null read on Garmr.

[ICEninja]

See now that just seems weird to me. You hardly commented on ANYTHING in your post 227. You justify your vote on someone using a comment that in fact should prove the opposite, support my case that has since been completely 180'd, then completely echo my opinion on the Slandaar/Thor debacle.

And now you're totally sheeping my opinion of Albert's recent change in play and his point against Thor.

I'm having a difficult time eloquating (I feel like this should be a word. Pretend this is a word.) why, exactly, I feel this is so scummy but I just don't feel any genuine opinion coming from you, just parroting. And now that you're caught up you're still doing the same thing.

As for the 3 games Thor posted, the first one isn't even relevant. He replaced in on page 24, and just looking through it feels like he talked to a lot more people than he has been here. Sure Thor is addressing other things besides Slandaar, but I feel like Thor hasn't really pursued any line of reasoning other than Slandaar=scum for a majority of this game.

Ran out of time to analyze the other 2 games. I'll try to finalize an opinion of Thor tomorrow.

[ICEninja]

So after reviewing Thor's presented meta, I've decided it's pretty much all completely irrelevant. I don't like that he posted things to say "LOOK THIS IS HOW I PLAY", but I simply don't have Albert's experience with him to really say anything about his alignment.

Considering JUST his play this game, Thor is on a scummier side, but not my preferred lynch so far.

However, this game has a lot of suspects and so I am just going to remove myself from the pool later as I am town and this town needs obvtowns at this point. So, expect lots of content on interesting things.

This put Slandaar higher on my scum list.

Actually that's a really interesting catch, Thor. You're absolutely right, Albert very directly contradicts himself.

I'm liking the zakk votes, though, and I'm still thinking TCold could use some rope.

[ICEninja]

I'm saying Thor wouldn't do that as town because it's a generally scummy thing to do.

And I somewhat agree with you. He's on the scummy side.

Um...you do realize I was *asked* for links to my games.

Yes, after you made this statement:

Heck, i literally just had a Newbie end where I did this.
Day 1 *and* Day 2.

i can link if you'd like to continue to claim that you remotely understand how I play the game as town or scum.

I have the intense urge to make posts like this when I'm scum. I've seen others do the same. Being that I find the games you LATER were asked for and linked completely irrelevant to reading you currently, I'm slightly scum reading you based partially on what Albert said about you and partially based on what I just quoted you.

I see. I seem to move up your scumlist everypost I assume I will be #1 soon?!

Continue to make bad posts and yeah. That's kind of how this game works.

Interesting stance to take having both Thor and I as scum.

My reasoning for calling Thor scum is completely irrelevant to my reasons for calling you scum. My reasons for calling you scum are completely irrelevant to my reasons for calling Thor scum. Should one of you flip, that would give further information on the other but for now I don't have that information.

I really really don't like how Thor seems to be addressing every single comment at him with meta. People are saying what you did this game is scummy, and you're responding with things like :

Yes, but why would you presume I'd change my strategy in that way, and why do you know my town style enough to recognize it as a change considering you don't even remember me?

I lol'd.

How about this for fun and games - weigh in on ABR's case. I'm curious. Like, specifically, which parts do you like/not like.
Also, an opinion on the wagon on me and how it formed and why you think it is a town wagon..
Blow me away you sexy pro-town beast you.

I actually would like to see this too, Slandaar.

I'd be willing to bet this game that we've got at least 1 scum sliding along in the shadows trying to be ignored. My vote should indicate where I feel the most likely one is found.

[ICEninja]

Fair enough. In my eyes you've said all you can. If you're town, carry on finding scum.

I don't think I'm going to want to lynch you without some solid VCA anyway, which is largely why I haven't bothered putting a vote on you yet.

[ICEninja]

LOL Albert you crack me up.

[ICEninja]

Oh and F-16 cracks me up too LOL.

I find meta to be a very useful tool and IceNinja's dismissal of Thor's case based on the fact that he is referring to his meta to be a poor argument.

Go back and read it. You'll realize that I pointed out that

every single linked game was COMPLETELY irrelevant

to his play this game.

Also he wants to do a VCA but declines to put his vote down?

I think VCA's are useless but IceNinja clearly thinks that they are useful. With a player who has that mindset, I'd expect him to put down a vote so it becomes easier to VCA him. He is working against what he seems to think is a useful scumhunting method.

You're clearly clueless.

[ICEninja]

The dismissal of my argument without addressing it is scummy as well.

That is because you have no case against me. Your first point is flat out wrong and your second point demonstrates you don't actually understand what VCA is. The meta analysis that was presented was irrelevant. Why the hell would I use it to influence my vote? That would be scummy.

You keep saying I haven't put a vote down, but my vote has been down this whole time, just not on Thor. Because if you actually read things I say, you'll realize that Thor has never once been my primary suspect.

I suppose I can be less of a jerk and actually explain what VCA is though. You seem to realize that it stands for "vote count analysis", but you don't seem to understand that you cannot use it on day 1. The point is after you have at least 2 confirmed players (usually better when you have 4+ and at least one scum, but even 2 townie flips can give you SOMETHING) whose alignment you KNOW for a fact, and therefore you can look at key vote counts to see which player has their vote where and when, and you can determine a lot of scum intent from this.

It is considered by many players to be one of the most useful tools to scum hunt later in the game. Some players, such as Thor, are simply too skilled at the game for me to be able to determine their motives on day 1.

Going to split up this post to discuss other things.

[ICEninja]

OK so where do I start here. This game is all over the place and has made me laugh out loud quite a few times. Mostly because of how ridiculous things are.

The thing that stands out most to me right now is ABR trying to control town with force of personality as opposed to good reasoning or scum hunting. When I first attacked him, ABR overwhelmed me and basically intimidated me out of my scum read on him and I hadn't even really realized it happened. Now he's trying to do the same thing to Thor, and has obviously unbalanced him to a degree (as I've noticed the "flailing" that ABR refers to as well) but I don't think it's because Thor is scum and caught, I think it is simply because Thor is frustrated.

The tone I've been getting a lot from Thor's posts, and a good example of this would be his recent read of me as per F-16's request, is that he's frustrated about how stupid town is that we aren't seeing what he's seeing. It reminds me very much of how I was feeling in my most recent game where it was so obvious to me that a certain player had to be scum based on setup analysis (I ended up being wrong because a fucking VT claimed power role,

don't fucking claim a power role if you're a VT. Just don't.

) and he's frustrated that a player whom he sees are more likely town is not focusing on what should be focused on.

Also, Thor's case on ABR is good.

Furthermore, my other two scum reads of Slandaar and TCold would make a hell of a lot more sense if ABR flips scum as well, now that I think about it. My scum reads of them have been completely independent of each other, but a scum flip of ABR would convince me even further of them. I'll go in to more on this if/when we arrive to the situation.

Slandaar seems to be following a trend of attacking the people who suspect him. I've become an increasing threat to him with my scum read, and as soon as someone else comes out and calls me scum it is safe for him to do so. He even goes so far to imply that I'm an active lurker, which once again is hilarious.

I don't like Tool wanting to lynch Albert as a policy lynch, but I think an Albert lynch is the correct move today.

Unvote, vote Albert B. Rampage

.

[ICEninja]

Maxous makes a good point regarding Garmr, too. It is entirely possible that I'm wrong about TCold being our lurking scum and that it has been Garmr all along.

There are bigger fish to fry today, though.

Oh and one thing I forgot to touch on, Thor the reason I feel like the games you posted to demonstrate your town meta were irrelevant is because the first two you replaced in very late (the first one a few days in IIRC and the second one you didn't bother to read day 1) and the other one you were scum. Which I suppose could be insightful, but we were discussing your town meta not your scum meta. The discussion was attempting to determine if you typically behave this way during day 1 as town. Therefore, on the topic of discussion, those games were irrelevant. Therefore I did not take them in to consideration of my read on you.

To be honest I'm pretty bad at using meta reads as a tool to scum hunt anyway and I stay away from it when possible. It just isn't my forte.

[ICEninja]

You unvoted without voting Albert.

[ICEninja]

Considering the way they voted on me, I would be shocked if that was actually the scum team.
Two I could buy - three seems silly.

I'm not trying to call out an entire scum team here, I'm simply saying who I'm suspicious of, and that a scum flip of ABR would strengthen other scum reads. You're probably right that TCold and Slandaar aren't scum buddies, but I'm not even going to think about that until we've got some bodies

[ICEninja]

Can I just...not read any of Slandaars posts anymore?

[ICEninja]

Well show me this misrep I assume you know what it is Ice.

The existence or non existence of any misrep that may or may not have happened has

zero

implications of my read on you. Now please start being useful or I will seriously just start skipping your posts because you hardly ever say anything new. I seriously cannot believe how caught up you are on shit that happened in the first few pages of the game when there is SO. MUCH. CONTENT. TO. TALK. ABOUT.

God I hope we have a vig...

[ICEninja]

Like, I seriously cannot believe that pretty much 2 pages were dedicated to talking about this.

Thor's suggestion of Slandaar being lynched after Albert flips scum makes a lot of sense to me, as I have already stated that Albert being scum makes Slandaar look like scum too.

[ICEninja]

Thor just stop engaging him. We all realize how insane he sounds.

[ICEninja]

So the answer is no you had no clue and thus it needed attention considering it is Thors entire case.

I glanced over it, thought "This is pretty unimportant, I'm going to pay attention to things that actually matter now", and the more you and Thor went on about it the more sure I was that one of you was scum.

Pretty sure which one it is right now.

What do you think about Thors case on me being completely made up by changing my wording?

That you're oversensitive about having the wording slightly changed to explain why he thinks what you did was scummy. Let me give an example:

Side by side
Thors Version: that might make sense...except he didn't offer a conclusion!
Actual Version: My example was more accurate because yours ends with a conclusion and his posts did not.

Those things are pretty much the same thing, with a spin on it to emphasize how unreasonable you're being. And you call it a misrep (I'm starting to begin to think no one in this game actually understands what misrepresentation is).

OK SLANDAAR I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU.

WHY DO YOU THINK REPEATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN THIS SAME SHIT THAT NO ONE BUT YOU THINKS IS SCUMMY IS GOING TO MAKE US THINK HE IS SCUMMY?

@Ice - Actually, looking at those reads, I'm starting to lean 'not Slaandar' with ABR, really. What do you think about that?

The voting patterns indicate that Slandaar and Albert are

probably

not connected, but day 1 voting patterns I take with a grain of salt until the lynch happens. I don't want to go in to my reasoning as for why I think Slandaar is scum based on Albertscum in case I'm wrong about Albert, I think it's pretty dumb (and sometimes even benefiting of scum) to go too much in to associative tells when everyone involved is alive.

Bastion's summary of Albert's actions in 518 is pretty much spot on. It is quite similar to what I was planning on posting, minus the fact that I would word "appeal to authority" as using sheer force of will/personality to accomplish a goal instead of using logic, which has been a trend sch as his "defense" against my original attack on him. While I know this simply is something Albert does, the fact that he has no good scum leads at the moment (or all day really) and has been using this force anyway to direct town seems to play a lot more to a scum win condition than town.

[ICEninja]

Also, with the VT claim, I'm pretty much happy lynching ABR at this point.

I do want the replacements to have some more time to contribute, however, and TCold really needs some damn attention right now.

We've got a few days, but I don't think day 1 needs to run up to the deadline

[ICEninja]

This was too easy. There's no competing wagon.

I need to think on things, because I don't really like this.

[ICEninja]

Logic is pointing to ABR as scum but this wagon is developing too easily without enough counter. Slandaar really is the only one pushing elsewhere.

The only way this makes sense is if both scum buddies is in Slandaar and [all the lurkers]. Which now that I think about it, could be entirely possible, but still.

I'm feeling uneasy about this.

What are people's opinion of lynching Slandaar today and worrying about ABR later? The biggest reason I can think of to not do this would be that ABR already claimed, but beside that gut is telling me this is the right move.

TCold would still be a solid option too, though it looks like he's going to end up being force replaced, and we did just get a new player. I suppose I'll sit on this for a little. For the record I'm still willing to lynch ABR but day 1 wagons that have so minimal counter push tend to fall on town.

[ICEninja]

There's three votes on Garmr and three on Thor right now. Do those not count as wagons?

Not if you look at WHO the votes on Garmr are.

"I barely remember Thor"
"Thor is so good at scum he can make me have doubts"
"Thor is being so bad and oversimplifying, he is obv. scum."

Flail more.

While I admit I've been nodding along with much of what ABR has said, exactly this kept popping in my head. Honestly, I was this close || to being convinced that I was wrong and ABR is town but he lies about knowing how Thor plays. Repeatedly. And this isn't the drawing people out and gathering reads, this is blatantly lying about what you know about Thor.

Go to MD and look at my playstyle as scum. I broke it down for you.

No, meta defenses like this are scummy. You're certainly too good of a player for it to be that easy to tell.

Barring something dramatic, i'll be voting Garmr or Thor at the end of the day period.
I'll wait and see where the replacements vote etc.

And this actually makes me feel a little better about my decision.

My vote stays where it is. I'm not confident at all here, but I feel like this is town's best bet.

[ICEninja]

You're at L-2. I highly doubt you'll end up quicklynched. I as well don't like all the AtE you've been putting out.

And just to remind people, deadline is actually coming up soon. We've got a few days, but if someone wants to derail this wagon on ABR it had better be right now, and damn convincing.

[ICEninja]

I'm feeling more confident of my vote now.

[ICEninja]

I must be spending too much time on Reddit. I just tried to upvote that post.

[ICEninja]

Hey look at that, zakk posted.

I now strongly feel like this guy is the best bet for our lurking scum.

[ICEninja]

Just a reminder to those catching up, deadline is in 5 days. I really don't want to see D1 run right up to said deadline, so some thoughts sooner than later would be nice.

[ICEninja]

Hey look, Thor665 got the 665th post.

[ICEninja]

I'm feeling a lot better about this ABR lynch based on things like what Maxous just said and how so many people are deliberately avoiding this elephant in the room.

This feels a LOT more like trying to lynch scum. It is HARD to.

[ICEninja]

4 days until deadline, and fitz probably won't post until Monday.

Garmr's vote, while on a player I don't mind having voted on him, is USELESS. An L-6 vote at this point is as good as not voting, and not voting 4 days before the deadline is bad.

*cough F-16 cough*

[ICEninja]

My feelings exactly. How is it pro-town to present a little case, let everyone COMPLETELY ignore it because there are bigger things going on, then proceed to call the main wagon of the day town without saying much about why?

Hint: it isn't. Not that I'm saying you're scummy, Max, but you're definitely not helping town.

[ICEninja]

Basically every time he said, in one way or another "pretty much nothing you've said matters". Which is like 50 times.

[ICEninja]

I've told you time and time again to actually contribute to this game instead of repeating over and over and over (ad nasium) about the same points that

every single player in this game besides you

agree are meaningless.

I'm not the only one frustrated about it. I'm just calling it like I see it.

[ICEninja]

Honestly. Please.

Do us a favor and read your own ISO. I want you to understand the % of your content that is related in one way or another to some misrep that may or may not have happened in the first few pages of the game.

It's overwhelming. You're unwilling to talk about anything else.

Your entire case on Thor is predicated on how he responds to interactions regarding this misrep. You made some pathetic attempt to scum hunt me and then that was it, back to "look how Thor handled this SUPER FUCKING IMPORTANT misrep, he's SO FUCKING OBVIOUSLY SCUM".

Do you even have opinions of players besides Thor?

[ICEninja]

I'm genuinely interested to see if Slandaar is going to do what I asked.

[ICEninja]

@Ice - I wouldn't hold your breath, he's actually trying to pick a random fight with me for pointing out what's happening, and he doesn't even notice that I'm right.

Plus only town would actually benefit from doing it...so...

[ICEninja]

Because I'm quite happy with either lynch. As of this moment, I'm more confident in ABR flipping scum, though not by much.

If town really wanted to swing and lynch Slandaar instead today (as I believe I've alluded to before) I'd be alright with that. There just doesn't seem like much momentum for that.

[ICEninja]

Yeah...pretty much nothing in post 701 makes any sense.

I'm eagerly awaiting some new blood. I feel like I've been unable to get new reads on players simply because new discussion stopped happening 12 pages ago.

[ICEninja]

Because the majority of players are tunneling on me.

Do me a quick favor (just in case you are town). In this hypothetical world, you get lynched today and flip town. Tomorrow a cop clears Thor as innocent.

Where should town proceed from there?

Also Slandaar, while I realize you think I'm scum, I seem to recall every point you raised against me being completely invalid. Care to drop a couple bullet points as to why I'm scum and refresh my memory?

[ICEninja]

Why so, Albert? I've liked his posts so far.

[ICEninja]

That's a more or less decent case for day 1, Max. Why didn't you push it?

[ICEninja]

Well damn. OK. That sucks.

Neither Maxous nor F-16 feels like a vig kill to me. Slandaar would have shot Thor if he was a vig, and anyone else probably would have shot Slandaar.

I'm not going to assume anything, but this feels like either a two-family mafia game or we've got a serial killer.

I'm now having serious doubts about Thor. I obviously can't trust ABR completely, as I still don't understand why he played the way he played, but he might have been on to something.

My current biggest suspects are [zakk, fitz, Garmr, Skelda] because I'm almost certain there was at least one scum lurking throughout that entire debacle, and one of Thor or Slandaar but not both.

Looking at the votes for day 1, I'm feeling like Garmr is a good bet right now.

Vote Garmr

.

[ICEninja]

I want some pressure on either Thor or Slandaar, too. But I only have one vote so...

[ICEninja]

I've never encountered a hider before. It gets fake claimed a lot, so I typically lynch anyone who claims to be one.

If that's the case then yeah Thor should be lynched today. Which makes me feel a lot better about Slandaar.

I agree with Bastion about not quick lynching Thor, though, and I'm quite happy with where my vote sits.

[ICEninja]

Alright I've finally got a bit of time to dig in to things a bit.

I really don't see the Bastian scum thing. ABR didn't really say very much about why he thought he was scum, and if we're already assuming scum Thor, then scum Bastian makes a lot less sense considering the vote count. There was AT MOST 2 scum on Albert's wagon. I feel like our best bet is one of the not voting (though it's hard to say because fitz hadn't even content posted yet at the time of the hammer and zakk was so far behind) and the 3rd is kind of a wild card, but I doubt it was someone pressuring Albert early on.

Garmr feels like the best bet if there were 2 scum on the wagon for a few reasons. One, Garmr was hesitant to jump on the wagon. He was supporting it from the sidelines, and keeping his vote as far away from Thor's as possible. In his 524 he forgot who replaced who, which I've always found a slight scum tell because town needs to pay more attention to who is who in finding scum, whereas scum already knows everyone's alignment anyway.

I feel like the NK on Maxous suggests zakk is probably not scum. Maxous was one of the few people saying zakk is town, and he also laid out a fairly solid case towards the end of the day in post 719. While there's always a lot of WIFOM is trying to analyze the night 1 kill, I feel like scum would do more to prevent the night kill from having any interaction with Thor, and shooting someone who just made a decent case on scum Garmr but didn't push it (and was told by me to pursue it further) just kind of makes sense.

I feel like a scumflip from Thor (and even moreso a PR scum flip from Thor) would clear Elyse, as the hider catch wasn't super obvious to me. I don't think scum would do that to a buddy right out of the gates, especially a strong player like Thor.

I really want to hear from fitz and Skelda though. I had a scum read on both Axxle and TCold, though both are somewhat mild scum reads considering how much the game advanced. I really feel like one of these two is probably scum though.

If I had to call a scum team out right now it would be Thor, Garmr, and one of fitz/Skelda. If I have to pick one, leaning fitz.

[ICEninja]

If Slandaar is town I want to apologize a bit for being so rude on D1, especially since it seems like you're right.

That being said, if you're town, i

very much

expect some new content from you.

I also don't see any reason to lynch tool currently, so that should pretty much cover my current opinions on anyone. Feel free to ask me questions if anyone wants anything deeper on any particular player.

[ICEninja]

Ice you didn't read did you I said I was willing to hammer ABR but didn't want the day to end earlier.

I stand by my theory that you're scum trying to keep your vote as far away from Thor's as possible. Can't have yourself associated with him now, can you? You were pushing the case from the sidelines, which is scummy as hell considering he flipped town.

Also forgetting who replaced in is a scum sign??? That's a really big reach there and doesn't make sense since forgetting things is not really alignment indicative and is more up to the players personality.

I admitted it was a small point, but in order for town to have solid reads on people and to find scum they kind of need to know who is who. Scum doesn't have to pay quite as much attention. Any time a player demonstrates they haven't read things thoroughly it's a small but noteworthy scum tell in my eyes.

Also would like to say Maxous would of been the obvious person to kill by using occam's razor as everyone accepted him as town.

F-16, myself, and Bastian were all considered fairly town at the end of the day. Why him? Also, I brought it up mostly for the town points on zakk, the fact that everything makes sense for you to be scum was just an extra benefit that I realized while talking about zakk.

Most of my case on you is just that you being scum makes a lot of sense. There's also some process of elimination. With 3 dead town, one very very probable scum, and several players I'm pretty sure aren't scum, the logical conclusion is you along with one of the two replacements.

Each point individually is weak, therefore my case looks like a stretch, but as a whole I think you're a damn good bet for scum. I also admit a decent part of my scum read hinges on Thor being scum, so I'd like him lynched before you. But if he flips scum, we've got a lot of people who probably aren't scum. And you ain't one of them.

[ICEninja]

I've never encountered a real hider before this game. Scum fake claim them because they're one of the only town PRs that can't be directly targeted for a night kill.

Obviously if scum claims cop then survives the night, that's suspicious.

I didn't know a hider died if he hid behind scum.

So fitz...do you actually have anything to contribute to this game?

[ICEninja]

And yes I said "if". It's looking pretty damn solid to get a scum flip on Thor but I don't know 100%.

[ICEninja]

I might note that the points against me aren't particularly defensible (unless someone has something specific they want to address). I admit that I was not confident about ABR's wagon most of the time, though certain things made me more or less suspicious of it as it went on. I felt like my pushes elsewhere were warranted, especially with how quickly a decent amount of pressure built up on ABR after Thor's push.

Since I have some time before I'm really on the chopping block anyway I'll do my best to find scum in the mean time.

[ICEninja]

I honestly don't even know what to say to all this. I know a scum flip on Thor doesn't clear me by a long shot, but it seems to me like the only reason anyone suspects me (besides the F-16 thing pointing to me which will obviously be disproven upon Thor flipping scum) is that I was wishy-washy in wanting to lynch Albert yesterday. Which I honestly can't defend because I wasn't confident about his flip and made it clear that I wasn't.

Fitz and Skelda, get the fuck in here.

[ICEninja]

That was referring to ABR's flip, not the night kills. I suppose I should have been more clear about that.

I would also like to point out that since this post:

Alright, I'm finally reading this. I've been putting it off due to lacking motivation, but I'm going to now. Expect a logical post from me soonish.

He has posted 77 times in different threads.

[ICEninja]

Fitz I have no memory of that game you linked me. 2010? Seriously?

Granted, you apparently did a shit ton of research to find that, and I'm kind of impressed. I doubt scum would look so hard to find out if I've encountered a hider or not. I'll toss you in the town bucket for the purpose of today just for that.

Normals are allowed one "semi" normal roll. I forget if there is a specific term for it, but there's an allowance for one roll that stretches a bit the definition of a "normal" game. And I'm pretty damn sure that an every other day hider fits that bill JUST RIGHT. PGO is another "semi" normal roll that isn't explicitly normal but isn't disallowed. I'm 95% sure that normal games can't have more than one of these roles. Therefore there is no PGO. A roleblocker, as well, would not have caused F-16's death, it would have prevented it.

I've seen a lot of "Bastian is scum!" posts and it confuses me. ABR said he was scum too. Can someone give me a quick bullet point case why people think he's scum?

[ICEninja]

Discuss.

That post you linked was years ago and I have no memory of it. By the looks of things, before making that post I read the wiki about what hiders do.

I remembered encountering fake claim hiders before. They're uncommon and therefore unlikely to be counter claimed, and a hider surviving the night is a lot less suspicious than a cop surviving the night. I had no memory of them having informational powers, I always thought it was a survival role (like bullet proof, except requires you to pick the person NOT getting shot).

Hider is *explicitly normal* No, it does not count as an exception.

Hmm. You're right, wiki calls hider normal. I suppose it is just a very rarely used role. Though I must state, lying and being incorrect are different.

I suppose it is

theoretically possible

that F-16 hid behind a PGO, but Thor has already decided to not claim PGO and F-16 made it clear he was going to target Thor. So discussion of a possible PGO causing F-16's death is pointless and probably a desperate reach for Thor.

And Tool I'm right on board with you thinking Garmr should be tomorrow's lynch. Maxous was, too.

[ICEninja]

Excellent! An endorsement!

...From (nearly) confirmed scum.

[ICEninja]

I'm not a funny guy.

[ICEninja]

After the people who suspect Bastian of being scum put together a little bullet point case of why, I think we should all just stare at Skelda until he posts content.

Aside from those 2 I feel good enough about my reads to move on to day 3.

[ICEninja]

I'm about 90% sure this is the first game I've ever actually encountered a hider in. I don't remember how many fake claims I've encountered, probably 2. I also don't remember if I actually actively lynched any of them due to their claim. I have, however, maintained the mindset in recent play that I would freely hammer any L-1 hider claim because I had never (previously) seen the role, and that it's a very solid fake claim.

I suppose saying that I "typically" lynch claimed hiders implies that I've done it before, but we're just talking semantics here.

Let me break down exactly what I said:

I've never encountered a hider before. It gets fake claimed a lot, so I typically lynch anyone who claims to be one.

My first statement was true, as I've said I've pretty much never played in a game where there was an actual hider. I've played in a couple bastard mod theme games that I don't remember very well so it is possible but I'm pretty sure I haven't. I'm also pretty sure I've seen it fake claimed more than once. I have vague memories of being suspicious of it the second time for reasons I've stated but it has been a really long time I could be misremembering.

Anyways as a result, I've adopted a "go ahead and lynch the claimed hider" mindset, which is what I meant by "typically lynch" anyone who claims to be one.

If you think I'm a lying sack of shit who clearly remembers what every uncommon role is and does and deliberately lied about an offhand comment that didn't really matter to anything and am therefore scum then I doubt I can say anything further to change your mind.

[ICEninja]

Jesus I haven't even had a chance to vote and if my wagon is all town I could be quick hammered. Good thing it isn't all town.

So here's my conspiracy theory that makes SO MUCH more sense now that we saw a daychat flip (

NOTE: I have never to memory encountered an encrypter before, but I have not only encountered scum with daychat but BEEN scum with daychat. Therefore I believe that either only Thor was allowed to post and the other read or Thor was able to have a one-on-one with one but not all scum. Otherwise they would just have daytalk powers and the name "encrypter" would not have been neccesary. I believe scum's daytalk abilities died with thor

) I think Slandaar is a very likely scum buddy for Thor.

Think about it. How many players told Slandaar to STFU and he never listened? Even Thor himself had an awkward response in post 462 that really made me make a weird face though I didn't understand at the time. Thor was, through daytalk, pushing Slandaar to push push push and they had this HUGE d1 back and forward. It was the perfect distancing scheme.

How many of you would, as town, do what Slandaar did d1 with such a stupidly weak case? Both Slandaar and Thor damn well knew Thor wasn't going to be lynched d1.

I also suspect that there's a decent change Garmr was taking ques from Thor during d1 to push zakk while still lending support to the ABRwagon, and eventually throwing in his vote. I made a whole case on it during the weekend in a word doc, but one particular post from Garmr kind of throws a loop through the whole idea.

A quick look at vote counts shows Skelda as the most likely partner to Thor, and based literally just on the D1 lynch zakk is the only other possibility if neither Skelda nor Slandaar is scum.

Slandaar is the best bet here. For reasons stated earlier I think zakk is probtown, and while I feel like I have a decent case on Garmr, the one issue I have with that would cause me to hesitate to lynch him today. Skelda would be my second preference, and that's pretty much just PoE from votecounts, as there's virtually nothing to analyze in the whole slot.

Vote Slandaar

.

PEDIT: I was laughing because of how fucking ridiculous D1 was. After a while I just couldn't take it seriously.

[ICEninja]

It's in Slandaar's best interest to lynch this quickly.

That should tell you something about his alignment.

[ICEninja]

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH LEAVE THOR ALONE!!!

If you notice, I wasn't telling you to leave Thor alone. I was telling you to shut the fuck up about a point that was stupid and made no sense and to start scum hunting, because you weren't. This, ladies and gentleman, is actually a misrepresentation, unlike what half of day 1 was arguing about.

I DUNNO WHATS GOING ON I HAVE NO OPINION ON IF THERE WAS A MISREP OR NOT BECAUSE I AM A SCUMBAG WHO HAS NOT LOOKED AT WHAT THOR IS SAYING

Read what I actually said. You'll notice that this isn't even in the same ballpark as that.

YEAH SLAND SCUM IF ABR SCUM!!! HAR HAR HAR THAT WILL STOP SLAND TRYING TO LYNCH MY BUDDY THOR!!!

Actually, thanks for bringing this up. Of course Thor, knowing ABR was scum, would attempt to associate a scum buddy with someone IF AND ONLY IF he knew that player would flip town. That was quite clever of Thor, actually.

HEY THOR IGNORE SLAND PLEASE BUDDY YOU ARE GOING TO GET LYNCHED OTHERWISE

Telling you to shut the fuck up wasn't working. I was willing to say anything FOR YOU TO SHUT THE FUCK UP.

OK ABR CLAIMED VT LETS LYNCH HIM!!!

I have nothing to defend myself from here. This doesn't make me scum.

HRM THIS IS TOO EASY MAYBE ABR TOWN ANYONE WANNA LYNCH SLAND INSTEAD??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK I AM HAPPIER TO LYNCH ABR NOW THAT MY TOWN READ MAX HAS SHOWN OPPOSITION TO IT!

Wagon analysis has become an integral part of my scum hunting. I made the wrong call in the end but my gut was warning me to not lynch ABR. Transparency isn't scummy.

At least with those two things you were actually representing what I was saying in the quoted section. I'm glad your reading comprehension is approaching a middle school level.

LOOK SLAND STOP TRYING TO LYNCH THOR AND DO SOMETHING ELSE LIKE HELP ME LYNCH TOWN ABR

More and more twisting and misrepresenting. I'm definitely noticing a theme in your case here.

PLEASE LOOK HOW MUCH YOU ARE TRYING TO LYNCH MY BUDDY THOR!!! I STILL DONT UNDERSTAND THIS MISREP STUFF!!!!

And more.

Honestly if anyone actually reads what he's quoting in context you'll realize how much bullshit this is.

[ICEninja]

Are you guys kidding me right now?

Someone take your vote off me. No town player should be ready for a lynch at this point, and no town player should be demanding a claim at this point.

[ICEninja]

Garmr's vote on me is awful. Read his day 2. He says this in regards to Thor asking people to lynch me after he flipped "town".

The vows a little bit stupid through as in F16 case he knew he would die if you were scum and it was a crumb of his night actions your vow on ice isn't anything to do with your actions?

Clearly Garmr would only be suspicious of me had there been evidence that F-16 hid behind me.

Then I make a case against him, and he obviously doesn't like it.

Now day 3 he votes me, citing this:

I think it obvious ice is scum. The hider thing makes me shiver.

How does that make ANY sense considering his day 2 actions?

I'm calling it right now, Thor/Garmr/Slandaar. That's the team.

Tomorrow I'm going to go through and post the case on Garmr I made last night, because now my doubt is gone.

PEDIT: Yeah, because the things people were pressuring Garmr for on the first 10 pages were stupid. Go look at the early case against him. My thoughts were that scum were jumping on the path of least resistance, as most of what Garmr looked bad was simply his posting style. Since then, he's done legitimately scummy things (most notably now his vote).

[ICEninja]

Funny how zakk was JUST calling me town.

[ICEninja]

What new information are you even talking about? I seriously don't see how me never having encountered real hiders before except as fake claims (and learning that they're often used as fake claims) but not really understanding how they work make me scum.

Because I read the wiki article 3 years ago and apparently knew at some point?

I still haven't seen anyone point out how me pretending to not know what a hider does would make any sense as scum ANYWAY.

[ICEninja]

You're cute when you're pretending to be self-righteous.

that is only a misrep if you are town and I knew you are town

Exactly. Thanks for pointing out to town why I said this in the first place.

I am ready and I am town thanks.

You really sure are trying to insist this a lot, aren't you?

I have shown a game

That's nice. I've already said in this game that trying to defend yourself via meta is scummy. Especially trying to point to one example? Please, I've done completely different things in every game I've played as scum.

That is pure profits for scum. Also ABR was already dead he was never surviving the make a case up stuff so my lynch was worth infinitely more.

Trying your best to lynch scum on day 1 instead of town is also pure profits for town. At that point ABR was trying to fight tooth and nail to stay alive, and I was having doubts. There was no guarantee that ABR was the lynch at the point you are referencing.

Most of the rest of that you said sounds like a yippy dog barking. You do realize that Thor calling for a lynch wasn't ACTUALLY calling for a lynch, right? Whereas you are.

I also find it funny that Slandaar isn't including the other scum, Garmr (I'll explain in a bit), in the scum team. He isn't willing to take the risk that once I flip town and Garmr scum that people are going to remember that I called out the whole scum team on day 3.

The only way scum can win is to lynch 2 townies in a row, pretty much. So long as everyone takes the time to really digest the information and look at where Slandaar's motives have been all game, town will close this one out.

[ICEninja]

All right as for Garmr, I actually get the feeling that he didn't know what was going on between Garmr and Thor. He was frustrated about it too. Therefore I believe daytalk was just between Thor and Slandaar.

As a result, Garmr tried to keep himself as disconnected from Thor and Slandaar as possible, but was still offering support to his "leader" as subtly as possible. Here are a few examples of what I'm referring to:
Here is Garmr's first time calling out ABR on anything. It is very mild.
Here, he starts pushing zakk while keeping ABR as a scum read for what pretty much looks like because ABR had voted him.
Post 222 is something I missed my first time through, and is huge. Let me highlight the slip here:

Well I made my vote earlier before I really looked at the wagon deeply and that was around the time I was asked to look onto my wagon. I was and still am having trouble deciding which wagon to place my vote down. Zakk is not posting much at all and bit of pressure may make him pick up his game. But Albert is posting more and a

wagon on him and is more likely to slip.

VOTE: Zakk

This very clearly demonstrates that Garmr is more interested in pushing a wagon than lynching scum. He practically admitted to wanting to push the easier mislynch here. This kind of slip screams newbscum, which Garmr seems to fit the bill nicely.
This post felt really contrived to me. There could be two likely reasons for this, one he was really hoping ABR would claim power role or two he was faking frustration. Town simply doesn't get that upset when someone claims VT at a perfectly justifiable moment.

Then right after we have this:

I said you were scum yet I think zakk is the better lynch because he is. But I'm quite qilling to lynch you to. If you are VT town you screwed up town play if your scum your going for the safe claim.

Your tipping my hand to vote you.

Now he's expressing willingness to follow Thor.

I interrupted it that way. But why would you think that. Sure i feel like your scum but i got 8 days to place my vote. 8 days is allot of time to gather more information and make my case against Zakk. Zakk>You Also placing you at lynch one would be stupid since people will herpaderp hammer you.

More pushing from the sidelines. This is a LOT scummier than what Slandaar is accusing me of.
this post is absolutely awful. He hasn't pushed zakk except for this post (which was the ONE nagging piece of information that makes me feel Slandaar is a better lynch for today just in case I'm wrong about Garmr), is sitting at an L-6 vote, but still supporting that ABR lynch. Bad bad bad.

Then day 2, this gem:

At the end of the debate I decided Slandaar was town and Thor was Town the Thor read changing today because of the night actions.

He really wanted to read both Slandaar and Thor as town, that's for sure. Pity he couldn't give Thor a town read anymore.

[ICEninja]

Finally, let's look at this:

Vote Count 1.21

havingfitz

(0)
ICEninja (0)
zakk (0)
Garmr (2) Skelda,

Maxous

toolenduso (0)
Sir Bastion (0)
Slandaar (0)

Thor665

(2) Slandaar,

Albert B. Rampage

Elyse (0)

Maxous

(0)

F-16_Fighting_Falcon

(0)

Albert B. Rampage

(7)

Thor665

, toolenduso, Sir Bastion, ICEninja, Elyse, Garmr,

F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Skelda (0)

Not Voting:

havingfitz

, zakk

Here are a few assumptions I feel safe making for the purpose of day 3's lynch:
1) There was

NOT

a whole scum team voting for ABR here.
2) Due to Elyse flat out ensuring Thor's death at the beginning of day 2, it is safe to say she is not scum.
3) Scum having directed BOTH of their night kills to people off the ABR wagon suggests that there are probably 2 scum on the wagon.

Number 3 especially makes sense considering the people OFF the wagon who are still alive is a grand total of Skelda, Slandaar, and zakk. Zakk is a weak town read because I don't think scum would have wanted to kill the only guy calling him town.

Slandaar tunneled Thor unbelievably hard the entirety of Day 1. There's NO POSSIBLE way that town Slandaar could have known from that retarded misrep debacle that Thor was scum. He was SO SURE. Because he WAS sure. Duh.

As for the last scum, it makes sense for them to want to help the lynch but be as far from supporting Thor as possible, as discreet about it as possible. I've already made it clear who fits that bill.

The team of Thor, Slandaar, and Garmr just makes so much sense.

[ICEninja]

ICE, how many games have you played in?

If my signature is up to date and accurate, this would be my 29th.

No one has, of yet, come up with any reason why me pretending to be ignorant of what a hider would benefit scum. Is it really that hard to believe that I stopped playing mafia for a while and didn't remember a lot of things?

This comment from the wiki is the basis for my theory:

"Note that including an Encryptor in a Mafia faction that has two members is equivalent to simply giving the faction daytalk outright. "

It implies, though doesn't state outright, that a 3 man mafia will not all be able to communicate freely. However, tool just linked a game where it looks like the encryptor being alive gives the entire team daytalk, and killing him removes it.

Either way, regardless of how the encryptor works, I believe that killing Thor prevented scum's daytalk. There seem to be 3 possibilities here:

1) Scum have 2 "Mafia encryptor" roles that share a QT (how I interpreted the wiki)
2) Thor being alive granted scum daytalk, Thor's death closed the QT. (the game tool linked)
3) Thor was able to send messages to scum buddies freely who could not reply (least likely, just a possibility)

Based on what the wiki says I don't believe all 3 scum have free day talk regardless of who is alive or not.

PEDIT: Slandaar, I've played with you before. You were neither a dick nor an idiot that game. Quit with the excessively condescending tone, it's starting to really piss me off.

[ICEninja]

[quote=Slandaar"]
Can you explain the bolded please?
[/quote]
You called out a remaining scum team that is (I think) all town.

[ICEninja]

God dammit, the ONE time...the ONE time I don't preview my post is when I fuck up the tags.

Mod, do me a solid?

[ICEninja]

Anyways, I'm feeling pretty confident in my reads. Even if you guys lynch me today, you're going to pretty much be forced to go back and read what I said which will put scum in a pretty bad spot.

Make your own decisions, town.

Skelda is in my possibly lynch pool and looking at the vote counts a Skelda/Garmr team makes some sense, but I'd REALLY much prefer a Garmr lynch over a Skelda one.

[ICEninja]

I don't see Slandaar tunneling a scum buddy on day 1 under normal circumstances.

HOWEVER with daytalk it just makes so much sense. There really wasn't much risk of Thor being lynched and come on, who the fuck was Slandaar going to convince with the case he was pushing anyway? Thor was telling him to do it, and had Thor not been lynched and Slandaar instead been lynched (no encryptor flip) then Thor would have won the game. I wouldn't have likely voted for him, period, without setup information.

As per Skelda, I don't know. If he hates scum and replaces in to a game as scum, I can totally see him brushing off this game, but that makes me wrong about probably Garmr.

I suppose if I am indeed wrong about one of them, the thought of taking Skelda in to mylo is indeed terrifying, but I'm just so damn confident about Slandaar and don't want to vote for anyone else. If there's no way I can get a Slandaar lynch, I suppose I can resort to Skelda.

But if we're wrong you guys better damn well listen to me tomorrow.

And I saw another post by you that gave me super strong town vibes so you are off the docket today methinks.

*Facepalm*

[ICEninja]

then they get a solid thumbs up from me for how well they are playing off each other.

And the rest of you get a very solid "FUCKING TOLD YOU SO".

[ICEninja]

You seem very upset. Why are you so upset?

Because I'm right and no one is listening.

Slandaar, everything between you and Thor was "You did this" "nuh uh" "yeah huh" and it was such a beautifully crafted smokescreen that it makes so much sense that clever scum using daytalk did it.

My case on you isn't "Here are a bunch of points that suggest Slandaar is scum", my case on you is "Look how much sense it makes for Slandaar to be scum considering these circumstances/vote counts".

You've said all you can to defend yourself and apparently its worked because I don't see any realistic way of getting you lynched today.

[ICEninja]

It is indeed entirely possible that I'll be lynched today. I mostly have to hope that people will take my words seriously tomorrow.

[ICEninja]

Tool's theory makes absolutely no sense to me. I simply don't follow any of it.

The scum team is Slandaar and Garmr, and they've never let up on me today. Town players are the ones having doubts about me.

I'm a VT

. And I've said pretty much all I can to defend myself. Scum has outplayed me this game, i just pray to God this is true.

[ICEninja]

Tomorrow is mylo, if any PR has anything they want to say to save this game they should do it now.

[ICEninja]

I also want to apologize to town. I'm very rarely in this situation, I must have played poorly this game.

[ICEninja]

Do you believe that genuinely?

I've been suspicious of Slandaar ever since Thor flipped encryptor. His retarded push on me had nothing to do with it.

I've actually been suspicious of Garmr even longer than Slandaar. Take note of my vote during day 2. Also take note that Garmr's suspicions of me began with my suspicions of him.

If I'm wrong about one of them (and I'm so confident that I'm not wrong about both) then the other is Skelda. I suppose MAAAAAYBE zakk could have been the scum lurker all game.

If Bastian or Elyse is scum then town loses, which is fine because at that point scum deserves the win.

If you guys work with a lynch pool of [Slandaar, Garmr, Skelda] I'd give it a 45% chance for town to come out of this winning.

Do what you can.

[ICEninja]

The quoted segment shows that Skelda had even less understanding of what a hider does than I did, and I don't believe has anything to do with daytalk.

[ICEninja]

Well we have more than 10 days until deadline.

Just be aware that this game is on hold until you do something.

[ICEninja]

Slandaar I was lurker hunting. The activity disparity in this game was disgusting and I was hoping to kick it up a notch from players refusing to play. Hardcore lurking during day 1 is indeed scummy, so that one thing Axxle posted legitimately gave me a scum read on him for the purpose of day 1.

Why are you still even bothering to scum hunt me? You already know my alignment but you've fooled enough people.

Anyways my reasoning for Elyse town is her first post RIGHT out of the gates of D2 100% ensured Thor's death that day, and was posted like 10 minutes after the thread was open. I highly doubt they had time to daytalk about that. Trust me, they would have daytalked about it before doing it.

Bastian has been posting consistently town ever since page 10 or so and I can't find a single vote count that incriminates him as scum. Tool is similar.

It looks like I have very limited support for a Slandaar lynch today. Can I get any support behind this?

Unvote, vote Garmr

.

[ICEninja]

Does this look like some possible scum slip?

It could possibly be. Good catch.

What exactly did Axxle say which made you scumread him again?

He prod dodged without providing content shortly after, if I recall correctly.

Find one that incriminates me.

I have, and explained in depth. No I'm not going to repeat it, no I'm not going to link you, because you already know exactly what I'm talking about and I'm really tired of your antics.

Thor did the same thing.

What, call out the entire scum team? Because that's what I did. If I can't lynch one of them, what good am I to town?

I'm perfectly happy lynching either Slandaar or Garmr today. I'm less enthusiastic about lynching Skelda because

if I'm right

about the scum team then I'll have a difficult time convincing anyone to lynch the actual scum tomorrow in mylo. If it really comes down to me hammering Skelda or being the lynch I'm honestly 50/50 because I feel like unless I can prove to you guys that I'm on to something, I'm a bigger liability to town than Skelda is for mylo.

[ICEninja]

I'm really torn right now because I can't decide if I am wrong and Skelda is scum then which between Garmr and Slandaar is scum and which is town.

After the Halloween festivities are over I'm going to go back and read through all their stuff with confirmation bias that one of them is town and see what I can come up with. Maybe a new perspective will help.

[ICEninja]

At the moment I still think Skelda is more likely to be town than scum. Is we lynch Skelda today and he's town, then I'm on the chopping block tomorrow.

I'm trying to figure out a way for town to win this despite being wrong about me.

[ICEninja]

ICEninja, do you actually think Slandaar is scum, or are you just being a survivalist?

Seriously? I've been pushing an apparently hopeless case all day. If I was a survivalist I would be pushing Skelda, who is probably the only alternative lynch that could possibly happen today. Like I said earlier I need to go back and see if there's any wiggle room for me to be wrong about Garmr or Slandaar because honestly depending on how sure I am I'd almost prefer myself be lynched than Skelda because if Skelda is lynched today and is town then town loses because I'll be the lynch tomorrow.

Sigh ice your just digging a bigger hole. You don't hammer people you think are town. tell me what was running through your head when you said that.

Refer to my response from zakk. That's almost exactly what was running through my head.

Slandaar, you "caught" Thor because he said you misrepped someone when you didn't feel you did. This isn't grounds for tunneling super hard on someone the entire day. You made up a bullshit case and kept your vote on him

because he fucking told you to

.

Also note that my current vote is on Garmr, someone else whom I've called scum.

Regarding my lurker hunting, I obviously didn't have a strong scum read on him. I was trying to pressure him in to posting. Since when is THAT scummy?

The sheer fact ICE suggests Thor was never being lynched shows he had NO conviction in his vote when he made it.

You're right. I never had a hugely strong scum read on Thor, just a mild one when ABR made his case. I honestly had no idea what to make of anything when ABR came back and was like "oh jk".

I'm going to be pretty solidly busy all day today, and I still want to go back and look more intensely at Garmr and Slandaar with different bias to see if I could be wrong there but it is going to have to wait until tomorrow.

I would appreciate if no one lynches today and gives me some time to do that.

[ICEninja]

Well, I want to say that N's modding was fantastic and on point. In the dead thread he was worried he didn't handle the self vote very well, but I feel like his choice was the best way to deal with it.

In the future

, I'd recommend mod-editing posts saying "this vote did not count due to ____". Beyond that, I want to give you 2 thumbs up for being exceptionally attentive in game and responsive to PMs sent to you. Replacements were quick, I liked the rule set, and the game ran quite smoothly.

I want to congratulate both Elyse and Thor for fantastic scum play. Also great PR use by Falcon. The fact that Elyse crucified Thor before even having a chance to daytalk about it blew my mind. That probably won you the game. Nice gambit.

Bastian and tool both played quite good town games in my eyes. It sucks that I got lynched but oh well. My scum hunting seemed pretty sub-par this game but that's fine I've been on fire lately I can't be right every game.

Slandaar, I'd appreciate it if you avoid queuing or replacing in to games that I'm already in.

[ICEninja]

I agree. ABR nailed scum but was lynched on day 1. That pull back of the case not only got you lynched but my reaction to it apparently got Slandaar to tunnel on me all of day 3.

In retrospect I agree we should have just lynched the shit out of Thor right away in day 2, especially since it would diminish scum's ability to pick a smart N2 target. Getting our rolecop was brutal.

[ICEninja]

Good summary. I agree with a significant majority of what you said.