Mini 1505: N is for Normal (game over)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Hi guys. I skimmed through this game but will re-read in more Detail tonight.

I am unsure about the debate between Albert and Thor. I have read one game of Albert's (the one linked on the "A beautiful guide to focussing on scum and getting them lynched." wiki article. My thoughts were that Albert's pushes in that game were a lot more forceful and pushy as opposed to his push on Thor here where I get a more laid-back feeling. It could be circumstantial considering the impending deadline in the other game. I'll double check with other games to see if there is a common pattern. I've played two games with Thor but haven't picked up on any meta-tells that were useful. I'll read the posted games to verify whether Albert's case is accurate.

I think IceNinja is likely scum. A lot of his earlier posts gave me a bad gut feeling. I don't like 326 or 331 . I find meta to be a very useful tool and IceNinja's dismissal of Thor's case based on the fact that he is referring to his meta to be a poor argument. 331 where he essentially says "fair enough, carry on" is terrible. Also he wants to do a VCA but declines to put his vote down?

I think VCA's are useless but IceNinja clearly thinks that they are useful. With a player who has that mindset, I'd expect him to put down a vote so it becomes easier to VCA him. He is working against what he seems to think is a useful scumhunting method.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Albert, why Axxle?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

VOTE: IceNinja

The dismissal of my argument without addressing it is scummy as well.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Thor, what do you think of ICEninja?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

By "distraction," I assume you read him as town. If so, why? None of the things you have mentioned read as town to me.

I am unsure about Albert and here's why: You and him are two most experienced players in this game. If he is scum and you town, you are his one biggest threat and possibly his only fear. I don't see the scum motivation in initiating an attack on you and putting himself in the spotlight when he can just as easily push on one of the weaker players in the game and safely nightkill you. I can see him possibly pushing for your mislynch based on the "thrill of mislynching Thor" which would be the kind of mindset I would ascribe to someone with his personality - although that wouldn't be optimal for his wincon. I need more time to figure him out.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Here's the ABR scum case in a nutshell for you not noticing this.

1. He presents a scum case on me.
2. I call him bad and the case worse and provide evidence of such.
3. He reiterates the strength of the case.
4. I call him scummy for how he's pushing it and vote him.
5. He reiterates the value of his case.
6. I call him and everyone who looks like him terrible and still point out the holes.
7. He admits he was making up the whole thing.
8. He still suggests I'm scum.

Hint: #7 and #8 actually don't make sense when added together...y'know, considering he made up the case on me! So, y'know, what have I done at that point to look scummy? Oh, right, I called him a liar and said he should be lynched...which should tell him that MY READS ARE GOOD. Instead he's all like, lulz, just "showin' ya"

Anyone who doesn't comment on that I'll just presume is his scumbuddy.

If you were scum, you would still push him and refute his case, wouldn't you? That doesn't make you obvtown from his POV.

Also, can you explain this:

I can think of quite a few.

from your post 360.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Albert, if you still think Thor is scum, why are you looking for other scummy players? It seems to directly contradict your stance on your wiki about how you lynch scum:

On not losing sight: You must realize that suspicious players are inter-changeable in this step. You cannot lynch more than one player at a time, so only pay attention to one target at a time. Do not implicate anyone else with your target. Your concentration can and should shift smoothly from one player to another when your suspicions die off or peak to an all time high. Once you have reached the conclusion that someone is mafia, you poke, nudge and harass until you get what you want.

Do not get into a logical debate with your target. This always ends with “I have my views, you have yours”. Only reply to what is necessary. Build the tension until your opponent feels the heat, is ready to explode, to give up and surrender at your feet. Everything your victim does at this point will lead to one of two things that MUST be pointed out and formally written for the town to see your thought process:

You see them act scummier and scummier.
They convince you that you are wrong.

Based on your responses, Thor clearly didn't seem to convince you that you were wrong and you still seem to be unsure about whether Thor is town or scum.

The only pro-town motivation I can see for making up a case like that is to see how your target and others react and develop reads on them, but you don't comment on any of them.

Also, what are your thoughts on ICEninja?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

UNVOTE:

I

really

like ICEninja's analysis on Thor in 395. It captures what I feel perfectly. I lean town on Thor based on his defense against the wagon on him which I felt was genuine. I'll re-evaluate other reads later tonight.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What are you talking about?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I want Albert to respond to my post. There are enough votes on him and I'd rather not rush.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Maxous, can you explain your townreads?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Mod, I'll be V/LA till Friday.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

A few points I want to note on a re-read (mostly on the Thor/Slandaar/Albert interactions):

I mistakenly assumed that Albert initiated the pressure on Thor. A re-read shows that Thor was the one who called out Albert in post 60 and then follows it up with more questioning in 65, 67, and 70.

Simultaneously, Thor questions Slandaar in post 60 and 75 and it seemed as though Thor would push on Slandaar soon. Albert then comes in at post 83 and votes Slandaar. So, Albert here is following Thor indirectly by voting the player that Thor was questioning.

Thor continues questioning Albert in 150 and 153. The

only

time where Thor expresses agreement with Albert is in 201 and it was not forceful or enthusiastic in any way, just a simple agreement. I feel that Albert is blowing it out of proportion in 581 calling Thor the friendliest. Albert then takes a stance in 206 saying that Slandaar's exchange with Thor isn't scummy. This comes after a lot of tunneling from Slandaar and Thor on each other. Albert puts up a case in 219 saying Thor is scummy.

I feel that Albert's jump here was opportunistic. Thor had shown at least mild suspicion of Albert so it is not Albert who is initiating suspicion but rather reacting to Thor who was already suspicious of him. Add to that the fact that Thor was then completely busy attacking Slandaar and had his hands full. This shields Albert from immediate attacks from Thor since Thor was so busy trying to lynch someone else.

Elyse's 561 seals the deal for me. I find Albert's response to her post in 581 inadequate. It doesn't address the points raised and Albert tries to write it off as a disagreement. I also don't like 582 where he says "

You lynch me, and say I turn up scum. Who do you lynch then?

" That doesn't even make any sense. If he flips scum, good. We can work it out from there. Scum lynches trump lynching for information.

Albert's appeal to Slandaar in 254 and subsequent explanation is interesting. I'll quote it for reference:

Once he gets 4-5 votes, it's not the time to have second thoughts.

We might not ever build the necessary momentum to lynch him again, if we miss our chance.

This shows a good understanding of how wagons are formed and how they break down. Albert knows that if a charismatic player dodges a lynch, it would be quite difficult to get the votes back on them again. Based on that, I really dislike this post:

I will unequivocally represent a real and dangerous threat to scum, if left alive. If they don't lynch me now, it will be hard for them to do so later. Don't let them have this lynch.

As Albert himself shows, it goes both ways. If Albert is scum, it will be difficult to get a wagon back on him later on (possibly with Thor dead and Albert's detractors mislynched or killed). Albert's now a strong scumread. I want to lynch him today once Skelda and HavingFitz post their thoughts.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I just realized the reason why. The post numbers had a space after them which takes you to the first post of the game instead of the post referred to in the link. Fixed it here.

["In post 656, F-16_Fighting_Falcon"]

A few points I want to note on a re-read (mostly on the Thor/Slandaar/Albert interactions):

I mistakenly assumed that Albert initiated the pressure on Thor. A re-read shows that Thor was the one who called out Albert in post 60 and then follows it up with more questioning in 65, 67, and 70.

Simultaneously, Thor questions Slandaar in post 60 and 75 and it seemed as though Thor would push on Slandaar soon. Albert then comes in at post 83 and votes Slandaar. So, Albert here is following Thor indirectly by voting the player that Thor was questioning.

Thor continues questioning Albert in 150 and 153. The

only

time where Thor expresses agreement with Albert is in 201 and it was not forceful or enthusiastic in any way, just a simple agreement. I feel that Albert is blowing it out of proportion in 581 calling Thor the friendliest. Albert then takes a stance in 206 saying that Slandaar's exchange with Thor isn't scummy. This comes after a lot of tunneling from Slandaar and Thor on each other. Albert puts up a case in 219 saying Thor is scummy.

I feel that Albert's jump here was opportunistic. Thor had shown at least mild suspicion of Albert so it is not Albert who is initiating suspicion but rather reacting to Thor who was already suspicious of him. Add to that the fact that Thor was then completely busy attacking Slandaar and had his hands full. This shields Albert from immediate attacks from Thor since Thor was so busy trying to lynch someone else.

Elyse's 561 seals the deal for me. I find Albert's response to her post in 581 inadequate. It doesn't address the points raised and Albert tries to write it off as a disagreement. I also don't like 582 where he says "

You lynch me, and say I turn up scum. Who do you lynch then?

" That doesn't even make any sense. If he flips scum, good. We can work it out from there. Scum lynches trump lynching for information.

Albert's appeal to Slandaar in 254 and subsequent explanation is interesting. I'll quote it for reference:

Once he gets 4-5 votes, it's not the time to have second thoughts.

We might not ever build the necessary momentum to lynch him again, if we miss our chance.

This shows a good understanding of how wagons are formed and how they break down. Albert knows that if a charismatic player dodges a lynch, it would be quite difficult to get the votes back on them again. Based on that, I really dislike this post:

I will unequivocally represent a real and dangerous threat to scum, if left alive. If they don't lynch me now, it will be hard for them to do so later. Don't let them have this lynch.

[/quote]

As Albert himself shows, it goes both ways. If Albert is scum, it will be difficult to get a wagon back on him later on (possibly with Thor dead and Albert's detractors mislynched or killed). Albert's now a strong scumread. I want to lynch him today once Skelda and HavingFitz post their thoughts.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

FIXED

A few points I want to note on a re-read (mostly on the Thor/Slandaar/Albert interactions):

I mistakenly assumed that Albert initiated the pressure on Thor. A re-read shows that Thor was the one who called out Albert in post 60 and then follows it up with more questioning in 65, 67, and 70.

Simultaneously, Thor questions Slandaar in post 60 and 75 and it seemed as though Thor would push on Slandaar soon. Albert then comes in at post 83 and votes Slandaar. So, Albert here is following Thor indirectly by voting the player that Thor was questioning.

Thor continues questioning Albert in 150 and 153. The

only

time where Thor expresses agreement with Albert is in 201 and it was not forceful or enthusiastic in any way, just a simple agreement. I feel that Albert is blowing it out of proportion in 581 calling Thor the friendliest. Albert then takes a stance in 206 saying that Slandaar's exchange with Thor isn't scummy. This comes after a lot of tunneling from Slandaar and Thor on each other. Albert puts up a case in 219 saying Thor is scummy.

I feel that Albert's jump here was opportunistic. Thor had shown at least mild suspicion of Albert so it is not Albert who is initiating suspicion but rather reacting to Thor who was already suspicious of him. Add to that the fact that Thor was then completely busy attacking Slandaar and had his hands full. This shields Albert from immediate attacks from Thor since Thor was so busy trying to lynch someone else.

Elyse's 561 seals the deal for me. I find Albert's response to her post in 581 inadequate. It doesn't address the points raised and Albert tries to write it off as a disagreement. I also don't like 582 where he says "

You lynch me, and say I turn up scum. Who do you lynch then?

" That doesn't even make any sense. If he flips scum, good. We can work it out from there. Scum lynches trump lynching for information.

Albert's appeal to Slandaar in 254 and subsequent explanation is interesting. I'll quote it for reference:

Once he gets 4-5 votes, it's not the time to have second thoughts.

We might not ever build the necessary momentum to lynch him again, if we miss our chance.

This shows a good understanding of how wagons are formed and how they break down. Albert knows that if a charismatic player dodges a lynch, it would be quite difficult to get the votes back on them again. Based on that, I really dislike this post:

I will unequivocally represent a real and dangerous threat to scum, if left alive. If they don't lynch me now, it will be hard for them to do so later. Don't let them have this lynch.

As Albert himself shows, it goes both ways. If Albert is scum, it will be difficult to get a wagon back on him later on (possibly with Thor dead and Albert's detractors mislynched or killed). Albert's now a strong scumread. I want to lynch him today once Skelda and HavingFitz post their thoughts.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Maxous and Slandaar seem to oppose it. I've been pretty clear I support it. Skelda and HavingFitz need to catch up and post. I think Garmr supports it as well based on his posts and just doesn't want to put Albert at L-1 before the replacements catch up. I'm assuming you are talking about Zakk.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I'll vote when I want to. I made my opinions pretty clear and stated when I would vote and who I would vote for. I don't like you planting seeds of suspicion for "not voting" without regard to the gamestate. It is one thing to vote someone who isn't getting lynched. Quite another to state a willingness to vote for the leading wagon as soon as we hear from the replacements.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

If a majority of votes is not reached before deadline, there will be no lynch for that day.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This is a good wagon, likely on scum. I don't like ICEninja's constant efforts to subtly dismantle it. I am pretty sure Albert will flip scum and ICEninja is his buddy. If I die tonight, go for ICEninja.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

before ICEninja pulls up more crap to try and dismantle it. HF and Skelda can post tomorrow.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, that's a hammer. I've heard enough to see that more discussion is likely to dismantle this wagon which will only help scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

In particular, this is BS.

You're at L-2. I highly doubt you'll end up quicklynched. I as well don't like all the AtE you've been putting out.

And just to remind people, deadline is actually coming up soon. We've got a few days, but

if someone wants to derail this wagon on ABR it had better be right now, and damn convincing

.

He wants the wagon derailed but doesn't want to accept responsibility.

Because I'm quite happy with either lynch. As of this moment, I'm more confident in ABR flipping scum, though not by much.

If town really wanted to swing and lynch Slandaar instead today (as I believe I've alluded to before) I'd be alright with that. There just doesn't seem like much momentum for that.

He keeps his vote on the leading wagon while posturing to switch to Slandaar is the opportunity shows up.

That's a more or less decent case for day 1, Max. Why didn't you push it?

Wants Maxx to push a case against someone other than Albert.

He is positioning himself to look good upon an Albert scumflip while posturing to remove his vote at any point.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Albert, if you really are town, I think Thor is the person town should look into if I die tonight.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Good game and good modding N. Elyse had me fooled until I saw the spoiler PM. As for Thor and Albert, I think I said it in the dead QT but the "made-up" case convinced me much more than Slandaar's case did and Albert should have never retracted it. I think by "made-up," you were simply exagerating your confidence in it. That's fine. I think Thor did excellently with the fake emotion/frustration. Tool's book was hilarious to see. Fun game overall.