Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Yosarian2]

The main thing that happened during the crash was that a huge wagon started up against Bird because of MBL's theory that he posted a lot at the start of the day because his scumbuddys "nutkicked" him into participating more during the night. It was a fairly weak theory, and MBL didn't even seem to think it was worth accomplaning with a vote when he made it. Nonetheless, several people jumped on the rapidly growing bandwagon and voted for him in a very short period of time, most notable Pooky, Phoebus, and Twomz, all basically with no logic behing their votes, pretty much just bandwagoning blindly in a way I thought looked quite suspicious.

That's about all I remember.

[Glork]

Smashy: I'm still around. If you have any specific questions you want answered, ask away. Currently I think that either MoS or Yos is probably scum (and leaning heavily towards MoS at the moment), and I think LL might be scum. I think I had some other lingering suspicions, but I really don't remember a whole heck of a lot right now. I need a re-read of this game at some point or another.

[LuckayLuck]

EXECUTE ME, BABY!!
If I appear townie, then you know for a fact that I strongly legitly believed that pablito, glork, and petroleumjelly are townies.
Do it
You know you want to

[pablito]

Umm, LL if you're executed and you show up town, then how in the great name of logic does that clear the three of us as townies? I'd like that and all, but that's not helping your case.

[Glork]

EXECUTE ME, BABY!!
If I appear townie, then you know for a fact that I strongly legitly believed that pablito, glork, and petroleumjelly are townies.
Do it
You know you want to

You also strongly indicated that you thought Pooky was a townie. Look how well that turned out.

Basically... what Pablito said.

[pablito]

As much as I want LL to be a townie, I fear that's a resignation post. He must be resigning from being "Chief Executive Proxier".

Ahhhh, LL, still love ya. You proxied me well in mini 368 fwiw.

[LuckayLuck]

I fear that's a resignation post

I never resign as a mafia
that wasn't a resignation post either, it's a post of reality and clarity

just saying...if I happen to be executed today, please don't execute any of pablito/glork/pj/smashy for the next 3 days, it's the wish of a confirmed townie after I die

Also, why bother to be in the game if you're going to be so apathetic about it?

you're right. I'm apathetic. As much as I want to win, and yeah, I play all mafia games to win...my actions in this game haven't been done with that intention, because I'm apathetic. Sorry. It's just that...I see myself playing this game continuing on for another year and I want to cry that's the honest answer

you won't be doing the best move possible by executing me because I'm a townie, but I will self-admit that I am an apathetic townie and I don't have the heart to get a replacement since that would be cruel, I feel. It's extremely likely that I will continue to be apathetic, so I will probably have to be executed at one point or another, so...might as well do it now. I feel terrible for not defending myself as a townie like this, but, meh

[Der Hammer]

The main thing that happened during the crash was that a huge wagon started up against Bird because of MBL's theory that he posted a lot at the start of the day because his scumbuddys "nutkicked" him into participating more during the night. It was a fairly weak theory, and MBL didn't even seem to think it was worth accomplaning with a vote when he made it. Nonetheless, several people jumped on the rapidly growing bandwagon and voted for him in a very short period of time, most notable Pooky, Phoebus, and Twomz, all basically with no logic behing their votes, pretty much just bandwagoning blindly in a way I thought looked quite suspicious.

That's about all I remember.

This seems quite suspect. I'll take alook at this and see what I think. Im still working on top 3 suspects...more soonish.

[petroleumjelly]

Bleah. I hate it when people offer themselves up for lynches.

Also, Luckay, I will agree with most everybody else. I doubt your ability to read me (as well as Glork or Pablito) would be in any way consistent; I am fairly sure I could get onto your "townie" list as scum fairly easily with little to no effort. I am an experienced player, and I know how to make agendas which favor scum seem to favor town (see: the last two days of 2-Headed Mafia as an example). And I would expect much the same from both Glork and Pablito. As interesting as I find your playstyle, I honestly don't think it is an effective way to play.

That said, I

do

often-times find it helpful to work backwards if I am at a loss; by starting with who I think is town, and then trying to determine the most likely scums based on that information. But the jumps you are taking here -- by calling three very experienced players town [without really explaining in a way

I

understand] and basing all of your 'opinions' based solely on our suspicions -- looks like a strategy doomed to failure as town, and an awfully easy way to shield yourself as scum.

Regardless, your martyr-ish post struck me as being fairly sincere. >< So...

Unvote: LuckayLuck

for now. I'll try to read your posts collectively soon and decide whether or not I think you've been apathetic as you've claimed to be, since I had personally thought you were one of the more "excited" players in the game up until this point.

[LuckayLuck]

I'll try to read your posts collectively soon and decide whether or not I think you've been apathetic as you've claimed to be, since I had personally thought you were one of the more "excited" players in the game up until this point.

thanks mate
I was "excited" near the beginning-ish, I think I fell into the valley of despair somewhere when I realized that I'm not fit to replace in this game :p I mean, I could do it, but I missed 3-ish months of drama, it definitely threw me off. I've been following the 2/3/4 people I've thought most of as townie mostly throughout.

the last thing I want to do is be thought of as a martyr, I'm a terrible townie in this game and deserve to be executed. I really have no way to clear myself other than committing myself to following "those 4" - when they come up as townie, I might be slightly more clear, and when I follow them correctly onto scum without hesitation I might be slightly more clear, but it's gonna be too hard to prove myself as a townie long term probably. So hit me if you want!

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, just skimmed your posts. You certainly

came

into the game very excited while posting (which is probably what was stuck in my mind), but I agree that you seem to have drifted off towards being 'inattentive' (which you even used to describe yourself a couple of times) and 'lazy'. And I think everybody has pretty much been doing the same: I've probably been disinterested in this game for about a month, so I don't think that's something anybody can hold against you.

While I'm thinking about it, could you link me to any finished games where you were mafia? I probably won't be able to read any of them for a while given real life, but even if I don't, others will be able to.

Also, I'm interested (noticed this while skimming your posts). In your original list of townies, you said (edited for focus):

~spectrumvoid: [9.5/10 Town] STRONG townie tell

[...]

~Yosarian2: [9/10 Town] A LOT!!! Of Townie tells, not WIFOM

Over a month later (where I would expect suspicions to have changed slightly in any case), we have (edited for focus):

unvote all

~ Proxy opinion to PJ + Glork + Pablito combo.
Strange that all three share no same target. I'll pick the one I like best from each of them. Don't put too much stock in my choice,

these match my outdated beliefs from a while ago.

[...]

Vote: Mert, Spectrumvoid, Yosarian

~ Proxy Spectrumvoid vote, as well as reasons to vote Spectrumvoid to PJ
~ Proxy Yosarian vote, RELUCTANTLY, from Glork's list which I must say I don't like very much. Two months ago(?) I stated that I like MoS and nightson both. I have not had the opportunity to re-evaluate if I still like them yet so my belief here is actually very dangerous since I really don't have much against Yos especially after the Pooky-Yos thing which I only briefly skimmed over. But still, I trust Glork a great deal. So I go with Yos.

1.) Did SV lose "townie tells" after you had made that particular post? If so, when did this happen, and why didn't you mention it up until your SV vote? Was this particular vote based solely on the fact that I myself suspect SV?

2.) This makes me wonder at your "order of operations" when deciding who to vote, so to speak, especially since you claim that these votes "match your outdated beliefs" (which does not seem to be true, since both SV and Yos2 were deemed as "town" in your excel post).

I'll keep my question hypothetical, though.

Suppose you think X, Y, and Z are "strong townie". But then X and Y turn around and suspect Z. Does this in turn make you vote Z? Or do your "townie tells" still hold up? Or is this dealth with on a case-by-case basis?

[pablito]

LL, the fact that you keep coming back and saying something, even if it isn't the best defense, well, that's comforting me. I'd unvote, and all, but PJ's unvote just isn't putting me at complete ease and I'd rather wait things out, first. If it weren't for salmonella destroying the entire panhandle and making the jerseys new, you know?

[petroleumjelly]

If it weren't for salmonella destroying the entire panhandle and making the jerseys new, you know?

What is it with you and coming up with completely nonsensical sentences?

I'd unvote, and all, but PJ's unvote just isn't putting me at complete ease and I'd rather wait things out, first.

Would you mind explaining this?

[LuckayLuck]

Have 3 games on this site so far: 2 Townie, 1 Scum (Godfather)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4365 - Godfather

1.) Did SV lose "townie tells" after you had made that particular post? If so, when did this happen, and why didn't you mention it up until your SV vote? Was this particular vote based solely on the fact that I myself suspect SV?

To be honest, I may have "forgotten" that I had put a townie tell on SV when I made that particular post. I probably thought that I didn't have any tell on SV and I was just following you.

I'll keep my question hypothetical, though.

Suppose you think X, Y, and Z are "strong townie". But then X and Y turn around and suspect Z. Does this in turn make you vote Z? Or do your "townie tells" still hold up? Or is this dealth with on a case-by-case basis?

case-by-case, but if I think it's a STRONG townie, I don't vote Z, I defend Z, I tell X and Y to work together with Z because Z is a townie

[pablito]

What is it with you and coming up with completely nonsensical sentences?

Dunno. Something about English not being my first language.

PJ, I still suspect you, something about gut. Not tripe, but gut. And you unvoting LL, well, it just feels off to me. It either means you're actually pro-town or you're actually scum trying to look really townie. But unvoting LL at this particular juncture, well, it makes you look townie. And your logic makes sense and all. But it also looks like it progressed unnaturally.

Also, I just realized that I have the order of events wrong. You unvoted and then skimmed LL and then asked questions. I remembered wrong. I thought you had skimmed, unvoted, then asked questions.

So maybe I'm reading you wrong with an unhealthy anti-PJ bias.

Either way, I support keeping LL alive. I think he could be arsed to care about this game. And I think he can be arsed to make a contribution rather than proxying. Just give him time. He's a good kid at heart, he just knows how to pick out people that look pro-town. If we train him, I'm sure he'll develop the skills necessary to succeed.

And finally, tripe is good if you season it right.

[pablito]

Bah,

unvote: LL

forgot to do that.

Like I have the memory of a hemmorhaging peanut.

[petroleumjelly]

And you unvoting LL, well, it just feels off to me.

It either means you're actually pro-town or you're actually scum trying to look really townie. But unvoting LL at this particular juncture, well, it makes you look townie.

And your logic makes sense and all. But it also looks like it progressed unnaturally.

Also, I just realized that I have the order of events wrong. You unvoted and then skimmed LL and then asked questions. I remembered wrong. I thought you had skimmed, unvoted, then asked questions.

Oh, not the "too townie" arguments again. Two things struck me in your post (other than that), though.

1.) This post almost seems to entirely gloss over the possibility of LuckayLuck being scum. And if he

is

scum, I can guarantee you I won't look "townie" for having unvoted him directly before a looming deadline. Even besides that, your mindset just reads wrong in that post... you seem to be more concerned over whether I "look town" over whether or not you think I "am scum".

2.) What are the differences between {unvoting, skimming, questions} and {skimming, unvoting, questions}? I'll admit I'm not immediately seeing how one would be any less "natural" than the other, as I could easily see myself doing either.

[pablito]

Yeah, my issue is the flow of the progression. It feels off.

I'm not trying to invoke "too townie" or at least I didn't try to, because honestly, I haven't been exposed to it before.

The difference is skimming=research. What invoked the research plays heavily into the progression.

I originally thought you did research->unvote rather than unvote->research. Scummy is #1, townie is #2. Because researching and then unvoting shows that you prematurely wanted to convey that you knew you were going to unvote and wanted to present evidence to support your point. Unvoting then researching shows that you unvoted off of some sense, maybe we might want to call it tripe, we might want to call it gut, we might want to call it something else, but whatever LL did made you rethink things. But I'm not going to call it logic, because LL hasn't presented any explicit logic in defense. I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying that whatever LL did to make you unvote him has more to do with how he appears/behaves than what he just said. But whatever happened it caused you to skim him over and ask him some questions. That shows pro-town curiosity. I still haven't figured out if it's a pro-town healthy assertive curiosity, but the progression looks better than what I originally remembered it as.

And yes, I'm not feeling LL as scum too much anymore. He feels right, but my logic tells me he's done so much wrong. And I think I'd rather think of him as townie.

Also, I don't like guarantees.

So, I don't know how I appear in my last post, but mostly it's just rambling and crap. Stuff like that there. Maybe I'm just pushing your buttons.

[spectrumvoid]

I'm around to answer any suspicions. I'm pretty sure I've already explained myselves regarding my various actions thoroughly when earlier questioned, but feel free to go ahead.

For today's sappy nice day, I'll refrain from direct accusations. I just find something weird about LL and me appearing on the list, and all of a sudden people unvoting LL left right centre.

[olio]

Have 3 games on this site so far: 2 Townie, 1 Scum (Godfather)

Unrelated info. I think LL is playing gambit with his "lynch me". Lynch him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm feeling a little better about LL, but not much.

[Lowell]

Just picking up what I think was a prod. Or a general prod. King, kill someone. I have nothing to add at the moment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lowell, have you given us your suspicions yet?

[RafK]

Smash:
Your summary accords mostly with my own own view of various people (Yos being the glaring exception), so that makes me feel better. Of the named, I definitely favour an SV execution ahead of the others, but I wouldn't exactly hate a LL or CES execution or even at this point DoS since either he's scum or it should help us catch scum.

The only thing I'd add besides "Re-read Yos" is to do with your comment on KScope. There apparently was something major when he was bird, but- crash, and us replacements have only other people's words for what was said, which sucks because from what survives, it appears Pooky was involved in the argument. I see Yos (of all people) has covered this too.

Well, the other thing is that I think you can be more positive about Glork. Bussing as a tactic is overrated, and especially when it's unnecessary bussing.


LL:
Man I hate that "you may as well lynch me", and I've seen it from scum and town both so I can't even use it to help decided what you really are.

[Mastermind of Sin]

LL, why are you more suspicious of Yos? You explained somewhat why SV went from very townie to getting your vote, but so did Yos. Why did that happen?