Consulmaker - Carthage wins!

[Kison]

Vote for Tribune : Cheesefan

[Kison]

Panzerjager - I don't quite believe the claim either. Such a claim could easily be a play for Tribune election. It would be quite easy to pull off, as well, because he could simply never use his second veto to confirm his role by claiming he disagreed with town appeals when the second execution rolled around. In addition, it would only aid him further to have the two Consuls support his unwillingness to veto, as they'd be required to vote in order for him to have reason to use his veto power.

I'd support Mole or MoS, however, I have yet to see much content from either of them. Therefore, I'm going to hold off on my vote for the time being.

[Kison]

Primate, why are you trying to help someone who would inhibit your powers twice instead of once? Someone in your position has nothing to worry about as far as the wrong person getting lynched. You can veto any executions set out by Zindaras, and would only have to worry about getting around two Tribune vetoes instead of three.

Also, just because he has two vetoes does NOT mean he's not scum. It may be uncommon for scum to claim early, but if he is scum, with or without this ability, as I explained before, he could easily play it off once elected. Remember, the only way for him to be in a position to use his veto power is to have the Consuls setup an execution. By waving that ability, he actually has gained the support of the Consuls because he'd have been aiding their execution.

[Kison]

Kison: I'm not saying that because he has 2 vetoes, he's scum - I'm saying that I find it dubious that he does, indeed, have 2 vetoes.

I wasn't trying to imply that you said that. I agree that it's dubious, yet I also believe that even if he is telling the truth about his role, it's not guaranteed that he'd use it to our advantage.

[Kison]

At the end of the first week, the two players with the most votes are elected Tribune.

We can only have two Tribunes per day.

[Kison]

Exactly. Panzer doesn't need to be Tribune to have a veto.

Are you sure? I thought he said he only got an extra vote when he was elected Tribune...

Either way, I don't think we should be electing him.

[Kison]

To be honest, I don't think Tribune vetos are as important as you're making them to be. I doubt that one extra veto will really help the town.

It wouldn't be a huge benefit early on in the game as there are far more townies than scum. I'd say this role would have been better to use later in the game. Unfortunately, the role was claimed, so he'd probably be a target before then.

can we even be sure this is a protown role? i mean it could be a scum role that is used to protect their own...
BM

No, that's what MoS and I have said already.

[Kison]

Alright, back on topic.

I think that I can summarize the argument against Panzer quite easily. That is such:

We can reasonably assume that the chances of both consuls on a given day being scum are slim to none. We can also assume that on most days, the consuls chosen will be reasonably good players. Ergo, for as long as we have 2 consuls, we have at least one super-tribune - IE, one person who has unlimited veto and cannot be executed. This, of course, changes when we reach dictatorship, but that's on down the road a good bit.

Therefore, is that second veto

really

going to be that useful this early in the game?

Furthermore, there is a major question here to consider. In regards to veto, is quantity or quality of the veto more important? No offense, Panzer, but you are newer to the game and I'm not exactly sure that your powers of scum-hunting are going to be as good as, say, MoS'. That ability develops with experience.

Right now, I'm honestly leaning towards a pro-town Panzer at the moment. That doesn't mean that we should elect him Tribune, however.

QFT.

I'm leaning towards an MoS tribune vote, for the experience factor, obviously, but also because I've liked what I've seen from him so far.

While I don't think Raffles is scum at this point, I don't really see much reason to elect him.

[Kison]

We're already halfway through this week and we've barely got one relevant wagon. Mos is legit. We should already be looking for our second.

I concur.

Vote : Mastermind of Sin

[Kison]

BM : Cut the crap. I swear, every post of yours is pointing out scum tells that are completely non-existent. Do us all a favor and calling your own shadow scum.

My vote stays with MoS.

[Kison]

EBWOP :

BM : Cut the crap. I swear, every post of yours is pointing out scum tells that are completely non-existent. Do us all a favor and

quit

calling your own shadow scum.

[Kison]

Do yourselves a favor and ignore the arrogant ignorance of our... townsman... BattleMage.

[Kison]

EBWOP: Then again, I've never seen him as scum yet.

There's always a first...

[Kison]

Kison-why is it that you feel the need to back up reasonably thought out arguments with mindless insults, yet you dont feel the need to contribute to the actual game?

1) Whether you interpret what I said as an insult, I still stand by anything I said about you.

2) I have contributed to the game far more than your conspiracy theories have

3) I'd hardly call your theories "well thought out"

Notice how no-one agrees with anything you ever say?

[Kison]

At the very least, Mole needs a prod.

[Kison]

*shrug*

I don't have any hunches now, either. A lurker works for me, I suppose. I want to re-read a little bit, first, so I'll get back on that.

[Kison]

And to me, your support of a EOM execution looks like OMGUS.

Also he never says he thinks that Cephrir is innocent, just that you're scummier.

QFT.

BattleMage, have you ever thought that just because people attack you, that maybe they have a point and therefore could possibly

not

be scum? Every time someone says anything that contradicts your plan or theories, you seem to go OMGUS on them and name them scum. That looks incredibly bad. But not only that, it flaws your contribution. So if you're unable to contribute, and you look scummy, why should we lynch an inactive over you?

[Kison]

Ok, although I myself lean towards an Ubertimmy lynch, seeing as he hasn't posted at all in this thread from what I can see, yet is active elsewhere on the sight, I don't at all like the wording of Panzerjager. If a prod brought Ubertimmy around, then I would see what he had to say. So I'm going to hold off on voting Ubertimmy because I think that was a rather offensive move on Panzerjager's part.

[Kison]

you are both wrong, Ubertimmy has posted. A quick look at the votecount would tell you that.

Fair enough, I guess I missed those. Ironically, though, his posts make me want to lynch him more.

Vote : ubertimmy

Reason: He did not want to participate in the election of the tribunes. That's fine. But he came out of nowhere and placed a vote with no explanation. Not fine.

And now that I see that, I can see where Panzerjager is coming from, even if I don't like his tone.

[Kison]

No new content worth commenting on, just more BM logic.

[Kison]

Well the reason I mentioned a BM lynch is that he is about as useless as a lurker. None of his theories ever fly. None of his comments are ever productive. He also gives off the scummy vibes everyone's used to even when he's town, and OFTEN, making it more difficult to tell when he's REALLY scum.

I am content with a lurker lynch, though, because they are of no use either.

[Kison]

Oh god, BM as consulmaker...we'd be so screwed...

Quoted For Flawless Truth.

I am content with the proposed execution.

Awaiting Execution: ~N9V~

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

livingod - 5(

Primate

, Panzerjager, HackerHuck, Raffles, ~N9V~)
Cephrir - 3(AndrewS, Battle Mage, Toaster Strudel)
~N9V~ - 1(

Zindaras

)
Battle Mage - 1(Cephrir)
TheEyeOfMordor - 1(ubertimmy)
Ubertimmy - 1(Kison)

[Kison]

Vote : Primate

He did fine yesterday.

[Kison]

I almost wonder if BM was hoping to get elected tribune by a bunch of people thinking they were voting to lynch him?

Quite possibly the funniest thing I've read all week.

I did not find Battle Mage's comment particularly scummy, though, just for the record.

[Kison]

I don't really think voting Twito for Tribunes is such a good idea. He lacks internet access, so he says, and therefore would be less reliable than some other people.

[Kison]

I don't think it's necessary to elect him. He seemed somewhat desperately interested to be elected yesterday. Secondly, just because he has two vetoes, doesn't mean they're in our interest. If he's scum with two vetoes, that's doubly bad for us. Thirdly, yesterday went without much incident.

With two tribunes and two consuls, that's four with veto powers. Adding a fifth veto doesn't do much good. In fact, I'd argue that it doesn't do any good, even. If the tribunes have used their vetoes, and a scum consul desperately wants to execute a townie, there are countless others to choose from.

[Kison]

I'm not sure that there's a limit on Consul vetoes, but (normal) Tribunes can only veto one execution per day as the rules state.

[Kison]

Would not have mattered anyways. I am happy with these two as Tribunes as they did fine yesterday.

Will the real scum now please stand up?

[Kison]

Twito, I'm going to be honest here. If you're only halfway done with a reread when you've not had internet access for as long as it's been, and now you're saying that you'll be on vacation, I think you need to consider replacing.

[Kison]

Any theories on that one?

[Kison]

Day Vig. So he can kill people during the day. Looks like he hit a bomb or something.

[Kison]

April Fools joke? Good.

[Kison]

I'd like to hear what our two Tribunes and Consuls have to say, since they're ultimately the decision makers.

I, personally, am at a loss right now. On one hand, I could go with a Livingod or Rand al'Thor vote because they seem to be posting just for the sake of posting. However, I've noticed the same trend in other games(less so for Livingod), so it's not necessarily indicative of their alignment.

[Kison]

I don't see how my lack of theories is any worse than the fact that we lynched a lurker because it was day one and there were no

plausible

theories to go on. I'm not going to lie, even at this point I am at a loss of where to turn next. That is why I asked for the the opinions of those in power, so that we can have somewhere to begin. However, only Zindaras has responded, and he just listed three names with no reasons provided.

Additionally, the fact that the targets for the day are people who are lurking kind of emphasizes the fact that we as a town are a bit direction-less at the moment.

[Kison]

I asked the Tribunes and Consuls what they think about today, and I never got a solid answer. It's a double standard to accuse me of lurking when they're the ones we

depend on

to get anywhere today.

As for Battle Mage, as everyone knows, the guy uses little to no reasoning. Often, his reasoning is absurd. I don't think it's anything extraordinary that he gave a reason about you, Zindaras. The thing you need to watch for with him are inconsistencies; that's how we caught him in another game.

Well, let's get his opinions down so we know where he stands.

Battle Mage

, you always have an opinion. Who do you think is most likely scum at the moment?

[Kison]

A number of other people have put together lists at differing times, but you haven't.

I have not put together a list because I

personally

am at a loss for who to bring up a case against, and I clearly stated this when I asked the Consuls and Tribunes for their opinions so that we could get the day started. The person who I'd consider scummiest would be Panzerjäger, but we exhausted that avenue yesterday. I didn't get much of a read on anyone else.

You're also not the only person I've called out about lurking

I never said I was the only person that was pointed out.

and you've managed to accuse ubertimmy and livingod of lurking yourself.

Yes, I did. They have posted nothing substantial. I would have to argue that I have provided more input than the two of them.

It's absurd to state that we should be the ones leading the town. The consuls are the judge, jury and executioner. The town should be convincing us of who they think we should lynch. We're just like a hammer vote that can be placed at any time.

I never said you should be

leading

the town. To attempt to downplay your role as Consul is what is absurd. You are hardly "just" a hammer vote. It is

your

opinion which matters most, because you are the final deciders. If you disagree with our judgements, you, and the Tribunes, have the ability to prevent any such executions from happening. At the same time, you, as Consul, have the ability to initiate such executions. You are hardly "just" anything. Cooperation between Tribunes, Consuls, and the town is the most important thing, and that is why I asked for your opinions, because it would be best to start with the suspicions of those in power, as they are the final deciders.

Isn't it a bit of a double standard to ask BM for his opinions when you don't seem to want to give us yours?

I never said I didn't

want

to give my opinions, I said I was "at a loss" of where to turn for the day.

Do you have anything else to sidetrack me with? I asked Battle Mage a question so that we could move on. You may see this as an attempt to downplay suspicion on myself, but what's the "case" against me? Lurking. Do you want me to stop "lurking", or do you want to cast more doubt on me? Because if the latter is all you want, then I'll just stop trying to participate and let you go at it.

[Kison]

To Zindaras : I'm not at all trying to defend Battle Mage. What I was pointing out was that he is not necessarily scum based on his method of accusing you. I don't think it's a question of whether or not he should be able to get away with being scummy, but more of whether or not executing him would be worth the potential loss over potential gain.

Honestly, at this time, I don't see why not. However, I'd like to hear from him first. The more the guy talks, the more opportunity he has to slip up.

[Kison]

Kison, i think you should be more concerned with helping yourself, rather than looking for 'slip-ups' that cannot exist.
i will reread the thread in a bit because i can barely recall most of Day 1.

Why should I be helping myself?

[Kison]

because, by all accounts, you seem to be a popular lynch target for today.

Kison, i think you should be more concerned with helping yourself, rather than looking for 'slip-ups' that cannot exist.
i will reread the thread in a bit because i can barely recall most of Day 1.

Why should I be helping myself?

The only mention of my execution is based on me "lurking". I've said all that needs to be said on the subject.

Shanba AKA Panzer, would you mind telling me how I am trying to pin everything on the Consuls when I clearly stated that I was asking for their opinions as a place to begin the day?

[Kison]

Ummm... that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's not just down to the consuls: it's up to us as a town to draw attention to things we think are scummy. In the end, the decision is the conuls but we can't just sit here waiting for them, as that's counterproductive. Do some digging yourself, instead of sitting there waiting for the consuls, as that's a sure way to stall the game.

How is asking a

question

as a means to

start

the day saying that

everything

is up to them?

[Kison]

It's a removal of responsibility. Find something suspicious and go from there. We do not

need

the opinions of the consuls to start the day.

No, it is not removal of responsibility, it is merely a method of how to start the day by working with the suspicions of those who will make the final decision. Just because they are Consuls does not mean they cannot help do the looking.

However, I don't think the Consuls even have a clue, so I'll take second best.

Vote : Livingod

Whoops, forgot about this game.

His "absence".

I'm down with an N9V execution. (Takes out popcorn)

His "contribution".

Nothing more until day two.

vote Primate

Day two Tribune vote. Zero reason.

Only other post was commentary to the April Fools joke.

[Kison]

It's a removal of responsibility. Find something suspicious and go from there. We do not

need

the opinions of the consuls to start the day.

No, it is not removal of responsibility, it is merely a method of how to start the day by working with the suspicions of those who will make the final decision. Just because they are Consuls does not mean they cannot help do the looking.

However, I don't think the Consuls even have a clue, so I'll take second best.

Vote : Livingod

Whoops, forgot about this game.

His "absence".

I'm down with an N9V execution. (Takes out popcorn)

His "contribution".

Nothing more until day two.

vote Primate

Day two Tribune vote. Zero reason.

Only other post was commentary to the April Fools joke.

For us "not having a clue", you managed to take my entire thoughts on Livingod as the basis for your vote.

Livingod has been noticeably lurking the entire game, and whether or not you wish to take that statement of mine offensively, I came to the same conclusion myself during a reread. The "not having a clue" does not have anything to do with being able to spot lurkers, but instead the lack of concrete missteps that any player has made during this game, and the lack of cases made against them based on that.

I'll post my Battle Mage + Raffles analysis tomorrow.

[Kison]

RAFFLES

~~Day One~~

I basically agree with Raffle's response to Panzerjager's claim. I was suspicious of the claim myself, and didn't quite see the point of his need to claim so early simply to get a spot on the Tribunes.

His response to the rapidity of MoS's Tribune wagon was also what I'd consider to be pro-town. Picking the best player available when there's no time to decide is one thing, but he had gained four votes in less than 12 hours.

Goes missing for a few days but not unannounced...

~~Day Two~~

Suspicious of why Zindaras picked N9V instead of one of the other lurkers on the Livingod wagon. Votes him for Tribune anways.

Votes Twito for Tribunes.

Changes vote to Twito after I state that Twito is inactive due to lack of internet access.

Votes Livingod(to lynch) in hopes of getting him to speak up.

Not sure why Zindaras picked three lynch candidates.

Dislikes the fact that Zindaras has decided to execute one of his three choices without discussion. Have to agree here, wtf?

Raffles in my book is

strongly town

.

~~Opinion~~

Agree with him most everywhere, and I view his opinions as being in the interest of the town. Doesn't want things to move too quickly and without discussion. Can't be a bad thing.

Raffles is

very likely town

.

TEH BATTLE MAGE

~~Day One~~

Battle Mage - Seems overly defensive and quick to call Primate and Zindaras scum based on the mock execution. Votes Raffles for Tribunes, no reason given.

N9V votes Battle Mage for Tribunes. Battle Mage then votes himself and asks for Raffles to do the same

. This I did not like much at all. Changes vote back to Raffles once his wagon loses steam.

Suggests Panzerjager's role may not be pro-town. I also agreed with this.

Along with Raffles, he is also suspicious of the wagon speed of MoS. Stupidly argues about MoS's playing ability not mattering because he can't witness it himself. Makes stupid arguments about how he won't read through all his games.

~~Day Two~~

Dislikes the Tribune choices, but gives no indication on why. Still pissed off about the mock execution?

Tries to vote Twito for Tribunes. Claims that scum are the ones who try to campaign against him(BM) most.

Makes himself out to be a good Tribune candidate. Why so determined to be elected?

Has no idea at this point that N9V was even scum.

Manages to get his vote for Twito bolded this time. Lectures Twito on staying active.

Gets fake killed by Santa MOD. Thing that gets him points here is the fact that he said "go town". If BM had honestly thought that he was killed off, and he was scum, wouldn't he have said, "go scum"? Not sure if he was in on the joke before hand or not, but that is something to keep in mind.

Suspicious of Raffles because he changed vote to Twito "in order to provoke discussion." *smack BM*

Gets into the debate with Zindaras about being a book. Nonsense.

~~Opinion~~

Typical Battle Mage drama. I didn't like his pushing for his own Tribunal election at all. Though some good points made on day one that I'll have to give him credit for. Not seeing any self-contradicting statements, either.

Battle Mage is

likely town

.

[Kison]

60% of his early game posts were attacks on my logic, yet in his analysis, he claims that i have made alot of valid contributions to the game.
If its ok, Kison can you please reference me to where i made good comments, because you certainly havent mentioned them before?

I believe I mentioned some of the good things you've said. I've also mentioned some of the utterly annoyingly misleading things you've said. Doesn't make you scum. None of your behavior corresponds to the time I saw you as scum, but there were a couple of red flags I mentioned. Well, more like orange flags.

[Kison]

BM, please post your analysis again? Even if it is just a summary, it's better than us having to go off of imaginary posts.

[Kison]

Raffles is in your list? Why...?

[Kison]

After rereading Kison's posts, I don't find his posts as lacking in content as I originally thought.

What a fluke!

but I would have preferred to see him take a stand against someone, rather than fob it off to the consuls.

Oh yeah, because, you know, asking for the opinion of the Consuls as a means to start the day is quite the scumminess. Or perhaps you didn't like the fact that I didn't allow you verbally abuse the proposed tactic and instead showed you my point of view. Sorry, but if that's the best you can come up with, then I'll be happy to be executed, because hell, mate, who wants to live in Soviet Rome?

[Kison]

I'd prefer Soviet Rome to Monarchy Rome. There's a hell of a lot more wrong with a system where everyone expects to lay down and take whatever the guys on top give them than a system that's based on everyone playing their part and contributing to the greater good.

Execute: Kison

You heard yourself that HackerHuck said I was contributing. All I "failed" to do was find someone worth going after, which is quite identicle to the failure that has lead you all to execute someone for absolutely no reason. I find it ironic that such is prefered over someone who isn't even participating(Livingod).

Tomorrow, neither of you will be Consuls, and I hope this is remembered.

[Kison]

I wasn't going to kill Livingod. I want him replaced, not killed. I'm not some scumbag that goes after easy targets who aren't even playing in the game right now. Nice try.

And yet, you have failed to specify how going after someone who has NOT contributed is a worse option than going after someone who has. What is so scummy about me? Nothing, if what you've so far specified are your only reasons for going after me. Yet, tomorrow, you will need to wait until Livingod is replaced before you make up for the potential loss of my death, and you are thus short one man until that point.

Kison - I really don't like how he is trying to shunt all responsibility onto the Consuls. That's a horrible plan of action.

This is the single most pathetic argument I have heard this entire game. I never tried to "shunt" anything.

I asked for an opinion

. Want me to say it again?

I asked for an opinion.

Perhaps that wasn't good enough?

I asked for a bloody opinion.

Let's go back and look JUST to make sure.

I'd like to hear what our two Tribunes and Consuls have to say, since they're ultimately the decision makers.

I asked for the the opinions of those in power, so that we can have somewhere to

begin

.

Maybe it's just me, or maybe you cannot comprehend the deep, magically encrypted meaning of the word "begin", but the last time I checked, that doesn't mean the end of the line and therefore "shunting" all work at one group of people. Or perhaps you hold yourself at high enough of a point where you feel the lack of obligation to contribute, and thus, the suggestion of such a request justifies and sort of means of execution. Whether or not you disagree with my suggestion on how to begin the day, it does not change the fact that it was a simple request that you have turned into some imaginary crime. Personally, though, I think it's more the fact that you dislike my outspokenness, but that simple aspect of my character will never change, and you'll have to get over that.

Also, Kison, the longer you wait with claiming, the less likely that I will veto your execution.

I don't have full-time access to this site, unfortunately. Since we're on a deadline anyways, I may as well do this now.

I am a

Roman Citizen "Townie"

. I have no name. My role is to help protect the Roman Republic by helping to cast out and identify the enemies, while potentially serving term as a Consul or Tribune. That's about the bulk of it, ladies and gentlemen.

My guess is that this claim will do me no good. Vanilla claims normally never do. I'm not about to make up a role and a Roman name just to save my own ass, though. Doesn't change the fact that the points raised against me are idiotic at best.

[Kison]

It gives you the ability to just say - "Yeah what HH and MoS said..."

Anyone who speaks up about their suspects gives everyone

else

the "ability" to do what you have just said,

regardless

of whether or not they had asked for the opinion in the first place. To say that because I asked for an opinion, that this was my intention, you are assuming a scummy move that is not visible, and hence imaginary.

Just going after lurkers is something that scum want to do, because they're an easy lynch. I would much rather see a lurker replaced than killed, because they're more useful. The only way I would go after a lurker is if no one else seemed like scum, and at this point in the game, that's not going to happen. Lurking alone is a terrible justification for killing someone

Honestly, I agree with you minus the fact that we have near nothing to base a well reinforced case against someone with a deadline quickly approaching.

You were relying on the Consuls to start off the day, and that's not a good strategy.

You twist my words when you say that I

relied

on you to start the day, when in fact, it was simply a suggestion.

I've already explained why it's beneficial for the town to get started without the Consuls.

So, if by some odd chance I wound up being Consul tomorrow, and you a simple Roman whatever you are, and Little Johnny suggested the same thing I did today, being that the Consuls state their suspicions and we build off of that, and I happen to agree with him over your protests of how it's a bad strategy, my proposal for your execution over that simple disagreement would be justified as that is what your execution proposal

today

comes down to : A disagreement that you will win because you have the power today.

riiiiiight....

Typical and expected.

[Kison]

I don't see how my lack of theories is any worse than the fact that we lynched a lurker because it was day one and there were no

plausible

theories to go on. I'm not going to lie, even at this point I am at a loss of where to turn next. That is why I asked for the the opinions of those in power, so that we can have somewhere to begin. However, only Zindaras has responded, and he just listed three names with no reasons provided.

Additionally, the fact that the targets for the day are people who are lurking kind of emphasizes the fact that we as a town are a bit direction-less at the moment.

You want the Consuls/Tribunes to offer up their opinions first because you don't have any to give. In addition, note the fact that you feel that going for a lurker lynch is not that great of an option, yet throughout the day you still advocate his lynch over others.

A lurker lynch is not desirable, however, I never said it was the worst option on the table for today. I was hoping for more to happen, unfortunately, with timing issues, sidetracking, and the crash, I'm going to stick with my default for today.

I asked the Tribunes and Consuls what they think about today, and I never got a solid answer. It's a double standard to accuse me of lurking when they're the ones we

depend on

to get anywhere today.

You say we

depend on

the Consuls to get things going, then say I twisted your words when I say you were relying on the Consuls to start the day? Right...

Although poorly worded, I believe I had clarified the meaning of this later to mean that we depend on the Consuls to end this day with some meaning. This means, we depend on you to execute someone, and therefore, your participation would be to our benefit. I did not mean this as we depend on you guys to get the day started or to discuss different theories, but that it would be a desirable method to pursue.

and that they should start the day because the town is "a bit direction-less at the moment" is pretty much the same as saying you want them to lead the town

I think there's a little bit of a difference between stating suspicions and actually leading the entire day like you did with your assignment.

[Kison]

My execution was a joke! Good game, everyone.

[Kison]

Lynching Kison is

always

a bad call.