Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Ether]

Aiyah. I have a bunch to rewrite by Monday that's been rewritten before and still isn't complete and may well never be adequate and gah, but then there's testing next week and I probably won't be getting anything additional for a bit.

Déjà vu? I disagree with Thesp's specific attack on Patrick, but I don't actually find that scummy with Thesp. It just reminds me of the false dilemma attacks he used in Newbie 289 and then No Pressure. The rabid pursuit and the call for a fast lynch yesterday...same. Not everything, but enough of it is either in-character or something I'm too empathetic with to bother him over.

Mgm is more scum than Thesp but less scum than Nightfall. Channel's somewhere up there if Nightfall and Mgm really can't provide leads, yeah, whatever. (Speaking of leads, Adele is meh; could somebody resummarize the Adele/Mgm connection?)

unvote, Vote: Ether

for as mentioned a few posts above, she seems a little too attached to Andrew with an aparant view that he cant really do wrong.

Scum will staunchly defend townies at time to make themselves look good. In fact, if Ether turns up scum, at this point, I'd be more inclined to believe that AndrewS is pro-town.

-Says that by his experience scum are less likely to defend partners as opposed to townies.

This I agree with and will admit that up until he posted it I hadn’t really given it a great deal of thought. It made me more thoughtful of why Ether would appear to be defending Andrew.

Not only were Nightfall's attacks on me stretchy, they were stretchy

from other people

. I don't see much in his PBPs, particularly the one on me. (Um, was I the only person expecting the EtherPBP to be his focus? He

was

voting me yesterday; I was disappointed there. The response to Glork was the only part I felt was relevant against me. Incidentally, I believe that Nightfall displayed a double-standard between my defense of Andrew and Patrick's. (Granted, IH's "few posts above" didn't mention Patrick, either.) Hmm, I'll have to look into that. Oh, and Nightfall might want to add a belated comment, too. Anyway, this paragraph is getting long. Let's just kill him.

vote: Nightfall

)

In contrast to my more recent posts, I must say that I am now finding Glork and Fritz less likely to be scum. With that being said, I don't entire agree with their views.

(Er...what

are

your views? I was typing this before you posted that, and don't really mind 699 in particular, but...I'm not entirely clear on who you're looking at.)

What points against me are we still interested in?

You may now stop reading. I don't find Nightfall's meBP to bring my alignment into play. That said, it's nitpicking time.

Ether appears to believe that Andrew's own claim that scum would not promote a no lynch of being enough to show that he is not scum. Why is she so eager to take Andrew's word and lash out against those that believe otherwise? She also doesn't appear to clearly understand the idea of WIFOM.

My WIFOM != your WIFOM. Andrew said, "I wouldn't

really

try for a no-lynch." Andrew did

not

explicitly say "I wouldn't do this if I were scum" until

after

he gathered the votes I so disliked. If I am mistaken, please provide a quote and a post number and I'll give a shameful apology.

Again results to personal attacks

(I'm very, very embarrassed about that and I'm not sure what came over me. Please don't bring this up again unless it is part of a case. Please?)

[Glork]

One last thing, Glork, how do you stand in regards to CES, Pat, Zind, and Lee?

MBL seems pretty pro-town to me. Zindie and Patrick are pretty neutral (though I plan on going back and examining Patrick before too long). CES seems reasonably pro-town to me also.

[Mgm]

Mgm is more scum than Thesp but less scum than Nightfall. Channel's somewhere up there if Nightfall and Mgm really can't provide leads, yeah, whatever. (Speaking of leads, Adele is meh; could somebody resummarize the Adele/Mgm connection?)

Some people think we're connected, because Adele and I agree on a lot of things.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Glrok, hop on the wagon! If, for some reason, he comes up town, you'll have lots of juicy info on Mgm and Adele. It's win-win.

[Glork]

Right now, I don't plan on moving to Thesp unless we get another deadline and we need a lynch on somebody.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Mod

, deadline please.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether, can you please go into depth about your opinions of Thesp? You say you don't find his false dilemma attacks scummy. And that you're empathetic with his singleminded D1 play for some reason? What seems genuinely protown about Thesp to you thus far?

Also, please elaborate on how/why Adele is "meh".

As for Nightfall, do you really see his significant efforts as scummy? I see sincerity of suspicion and uncertainty.

Also, can we have your opinions on the rest of the players?

CDB: What's your take on Adele and MGM?

CES: You do realize your behavior today is identical to the D1 behavior of Thesp, the guy you're trying to get lynched. Why shouldn't we be voting for you instead?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES: You do realize your behavior today is identical to the D1 behavior of Thesp, the guy you're trying to get lynched. Why shouldn't we be voting for you instead?

If the premise here were true, which it is not, as our behaviours differ significantly, then the difference would be that he was wrong and I'm right (probably).

[Patrick]

I don't believe in a Thesp/Adele/Mgm scumgroup anymore.

Adele and Mgm - can you summarise all your reasons for voting Thesp for me?

[Glork]

I certainly don't think that all three are scum at this point.

I'm obviously leaning towards MGM and/or Adele. I too would like to hear their reasons for voting Thesp.

[Thesp]

Thesp, can you please elaborate on your four "suspicions" for day one, how you arrived at them so easily, and why you picked just one to stick with so completely and drive home to lynch? Were your other suspicions genuine, and if so, why?

This is a fairly substantial project you're asking for. Let's provide an abstract to work from in its stead. I end to find suspicions easily on D1, because the bar for suspicion is much lower, and you have basic hunches & tells to work from and to use to elicit reactions to help judge how people act in relation to each other. My other suspicions (of ChannelDelibird and MrBuddyLee) were indeed genuine (and still held to varying extents). I pursued AndrewS doggedly because I was certain he was scum. I was clearly wrong.

If I had reacted to your continuous claims that I was scum, my reaction would have been along the lines of "WTF? You're accusing me for no reason". Your 'accusations' looked to me like scum trying to deliberately incite a defensive reaction, so I was pretty sure that if I did react, you'd have pounced on it.

Why would the only possible reaction be defensive, as you seem to imply here? What was it about my "accusations" that made them appear to be scum trying to incite reactions rather than town trying to get reactions?

Yeah, well, excuse me for dismissing this as vague unsubstantiated scumposting.

I understad you dismissing my thoughts (though I disagree with you, obv), I do object to the characterization here.

They're not jumping on it because

you

were

pushing it, with gusto. That's scummier, IMO.

Why are scum more likely to be adamant and vocal? My experience has been the

opposite

, particularly because scum know the particular wagon-victim is town, want to push it along, but don't want to be associated too strongly with it. Your behavior D1 is consistent with this.

No, but it makes it weird that you're singling me out.

Who else was silent on Day 1? Please jumpstart my potentially-faulty memory and help us identify others who were doing as such, so we can question them as well. Otherwise, I would have presume this statement is taking an unsubstantiated cheap shot at me.

Thesp is suspicious, there's no better reason to join a wagon. My vote on you wasn't going anywhere, so I had to switch. Voting Ether would be kind of pointless. If he's away, he's not going to defend himself and I dislike lynching non-responsive people unless I'm very sure they're scum.

Voting Thesp was the only logical thing for me to do.

I respectfully disagree on all counts. Why didn't you ask for Ethere's prod/replacement, rather than just concede, "oh well, he's not going to respond anyway, I'm fine with no information", as it seems you've done?

Then were the votes that were made on Mgm because of his confusion seen as "scummy" to you?

I intended to answer this question, but it appears I have not. Inherently, no, as I can easily conceive of town as being misguided on that point. (Or conceivably correct on that point, and myself incorrect.)

Glrok, hop on the wagon! If, for some reason, he comes up town, you'll have lots of juicy info on Mgm and Adele. It's win-win.

This is a very suspect/dangerous attitude.

FOS: Cogtio Ergo Sum.

CES: You do realize your behavior today is identical to the D1 behavior of Thesp, the guy you're trying to get lynched.

I disagree with this assessment.

[Patrick]

CES: You do realize your behavior today is identical to the D1 behavior of Thesp, the guy you're trying to get lynched.

I disagree with this assessment.

Still got me on the brain

[Thesp]

CES: You do realize your behavior today is identical to the D1 behavior of Thesp, the guy you're trying to get lynched.

I disagree with this assessment.

Still got me on the brain

Whoops.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Thesp: 5 (ChannelDelibird Cogito Ergo Sum Adele Mgm Zindaras)
Mgm: 3 (Glork Patrick Fritzler)
ChannelDelibird: 1 (Thesp)
Ether: 1 (MrBuddyLee )
Nightfall : 1 (Ether)

Not voting: Nightfall

Looking for 7 votes for a lynch!

I think that we have enough activity at present to make a deadline unnecessary.

[Mgm]

I'm voting Theps for the reason I cited in the post in which I placed the vote. If you have any questions about that, feel free to ask, but I'm not going to repeat myself when I could spend my time considering other lines of thought.

Thesp is suspicious, there's no better reason to join a wagon. My vote on you wasn't going anywhere, so I had to switch. Voting Ether would be kind of pointless. If he's away, he's not going to defend himself and I dislike lynching non-responsive people unless I'm very sure they're scum.

Voting Thesp was the only logical thing for me to do.

I respectfully disagree on all counts. Why didn't you ask for Ethere's prod/replacement, rather than just concede, "oh well, he's not going to respond anyway, I'm fine with no information", as it seems you've done?

I could be wrong, but I think that at that point the number of votes on you was greater and pushing along an existing bandwagon is considerably more likely to get information/lynch than trying to start a new one.

Patrick:

On the previous page you ask Zindaras why he finds me suspicious while you are actually voting me yourself. If you find me suspicous enough to vote me, wouldn't it be logical for other people to follow suit for the same reason?

[Patrick]

I'm voting Theps for the reason I cited in the post in which I placed the vote. If you have any questions about that, feel free to ask, but I'm not going to repeat myself when I could spend my time considering other lines of thought.

Ok, I was just wondering if there was anything else.

Patrick: On the previous page you ask Zindaras why he finds me suspicious while you are actually voting me yourself. If you find me suspicous enough to vote me, wouldn't it be logical for other people to follow suit for the same reason?

I still wanted to know what his reasons were. He claimed he had been considering moving to you for a while but then asked someone to explain to him what the case for it was. So I asked what was making him suspicious of you on the first place.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Glrok, hop on the wagon! If, for some reason, he comes up town, you'll have lots of juicy info on Mgm and Adele. It's win-win.

This is a very suspect/dangerous attitude.

FOS: Cogtio Ergo Sum.

Although my comment wasn't really serious, I'll ask you to state the problem you have with that type of attitude. After all, hypothetically, if a mislynch were to give us two scums, then the lynch would certainly have been in the town's interest.

[Thesp]

Glrok, hop on the wagon! If, for some reason, he comes up town, you'll have lots of juicy info on Mgm and Adele. It's win-win.

This is a very suspect/dangerous attitude.

FOS: Cogtio Ergo Sum.

Although my comment wasn't really serious, I'll ask you to state the problem you have with that type of attitude. After all, hypothetically, if a mislynch were to give us two scums, then the lynch would certainly have been in the town's interest.

You're taking quite a leap to suggest such a mislynch would assure the correct lynch of two scums. The "dangerous attitude" is that it's okay to be wrong about a lynch of an innocent, as it would give some even better reward, all the while failing to demonstrate how said lynch would indeed obtain said reward. You're dangling a carrot that can't be gotten. That's bad.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It's not a leap, it's a hypothetical situation. I don't expect it to magically nab us two scums. I was just positing that mislynches could be useful an sich.

I do understand and agree with your point, but I'd say you read my original comment as possessing a seriousness it does not, in fact, possess.

[Glork]

I recognize that it's more or less joking, but it sortof feels like you were hoping that I'd take the bait anyway. Even

insinuating

that we should lynch to try to set up two futrure lynches sets off my scumdar pretty hardcore.

FoS: CES

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Of course I was sorta hoping you'd take the bait: I want to lynch Thesp 'cause he's scum.

[Zindaras]

In response to the earlier question (did I answer it yet?): My thing on Mgm is mostly a gut feeling.

[Glork]

Patrick:

On the previous page you ask Zindaras why he finds me suspicious while you are actually voting me yourself. If you find me suspicous enough to vote me, wouldn't it be logical for other people to follow suit for the same reason?

X

Forcing people to give their own opinions is always a good idea, even if you suspect the same person. You could be wrong, or they could be busing their partner.

[Mgm]

Yes Glork, that's a good point, but he was also asking me and Adele for our reasoning for voting Thesp when I already gave them. My gut was telling me he was asking <s>too many</s> question in an attempt to get someone to elaborate on their reasoning in such a way he could rip it apart.

Admittedly it was just gut feeling, but that's why I gave him a pinky of suspicion.

[Patrick]

That's a strange thing to say. Especially when MBL just went and asked about 5 questions to various people. I didn't see you having a problem with that. Not that there is a problem, but accusing me of asking too many questions is strange.

To explain why I've asked you and Adele for all your reasons for voting Thesp, that relates back to what I mentioned before, about being surprised at how you both seemed to jump on the Thespwagon. It looked like an easy hop, so I'm asking to see all the reasons to see if they are legit or whether they've just been quickly whipped together as an excuse to join the largest wagon in the game. As Glork said, it's nearly always a good idea to get people to give their reasons.