Magic: The Gathering,GO TEAM MS!

[Fate]

Let me remind you of your Boros reckoner evaluation chamber

[Nightson]

I'm siding with Fate, I think the card has a place in UB control.

[Natirasha]

Yeah, she's not the best walker ever, but is very solid and a decent replacement for Drownyard. Like a slightly more maindeckable Jace, MA is my read.

[Sudo_Nym]

Honestly, I think it's a strictly worse Drownyard. Milling is only really good in the control matchup, and this takes up a non-land spot. In the control matchup, it'll be really nice; in other matchups, it's going to be really mediocre. I'm going to want a UB control deck, but this seems like SB material, not mainboard.

[Natirasha]

I agree it's not drownyard, sure. I think it depends on the rest of Theros and the format. If UB get something that can boardwipe, or if the meta is slow enough, I think Ashiok has a place in the main. If it's a fast format, then no, it's sideboard tech.

[bv310]

Honestly, I think it's a strictly worse Drownyard. Milling is only really good in the control matchup, and this takes up a non-land spot. In the control matchup, it'll be really nice; in other matchups, it's going to be really mediocre. I'm going to want a UB control deck, but this seems like SB material, not mainboard.

Drownyard was uncounterable, and 95% of decks didn't pack any hate for it. Ghost Quarter was basically useless otherwise.

[Sudo_Nym]

I agree it's not drownyard, sure. I think it depends on the rest of Theros and the format. If UB get something that can boardwipe, or if the meta is slow enough, I think Ashiok has a place in the main. If it's a fast format, then no, it's sideboard tech.

True. Ashiok's stock goes up in a slower format, and Theros looks like it's going to be slower than Innistrad was. I still think that milling is way overrated as a tactic, though.

[hasdgfas]

I don't think you play her for the mill. I think you play her for stealing creatures.

[xRECKONERx]

^

[Natirasha]

She's good because she provide inevitability and creature theft.

[bv310]

I will stake any one card from my collection that Ashiok never goes above $15 once the initial preorder hype dies down. Once it leaves standard, it won't be any more valuable than Gideon, Champion of Justice. If you're playing him for the Creature steal, you rely on 2 things: 1) Your opponent having a creature worth stealing that doesn't cost too much, and 2) You rely on the deck that is running valuable creatures not beating Ashiok to death before you can steal. I don't see it being worth the slots you'd have to dedicate.

[InflatablePie]

Scry lands!

[Sudo_Nym]

The effect is neat, don't get me wrong. But she can't protect herself, the second ability is unreliable, and the ultimate may as well not exist. It's good for inevitability in the control match-up, but I just don't see it being good enough consistently enough to bother. Every once in a while you'll mill the exact right creature, come back around on your turn, and blow out your opponent with it, but it's certainly not something you'll see happen every match. If you want a good creature to drop, might I suggest running a creature in that slot instead?

[bv310]

I LIKE THEM BUT HOLY HELL THEY'RE SLOW

[Sudo_Nym]

Not sure how I feel about devotion as a mechanic, but I'm hoping it means mono-color becomes a thing.

[xRECKONERx]

The effect is neat, don't get me wrong. But she can't protect herself, the second ability is unreliable, and the ultimate may as well not exist. It's good for inevitability in the control match-up, but I just don't see it being good enough consistently enough to bother. Every once in a while you'll mill the exact right creature, come back around on your turn, and blow out your opponent with it, but it's certainly not something you'll see happen every match. If you want a good creature to drop, might I suggest running a creature in that slot instead?

No, because the purpose of this is to get rid of their threats as well.

People seem to underestimate how powerful it is just to get rid of shit your opponent can't play. Especially in control matchups -- a hand with one or two counterspells is disruptive enough already, but also being able to remove threats from the game?

"Unreliable" is basically saying "magic is a game of random chance and randomness is unreliable" which, I guess, is true. But so is drawing an answer to anything, or drawing a threat. I don't get the critique.

[InflatablePie]

Not sure how I feel about devotion as a mechanic, but I'm hoping it means mono-color becomes a thing.

mono-black pls

[edit] this seems silly

[Sudo_Nym]

The effect is neat, don't get me wrong. But she can't protect herself, the second ability is unreliable, and the ultimate may as well not exist. It's good for inevitability in the control match-up, but I just don't see it being good enough consistently enough to bother. Every once in a while you'll mill the exact right creature, come back around on your turn, and blow out your opponent with it, but it's certainly not something you'll see happen every match. If you want a good creature to drop, might I suggest running a creature in that slot instead?

No, because the purpose of this is to get rid of their threats as well.

People seem to underestimate how powerful it is just to get rid of shit your opponent can't play. Especially in control matchups -- a hand with one or two counterspells is disruptive enough already, but also being able to remove threats from the game?

"Unreliable" is basically saying "magic is a game of random chance and randomness is unreliable" which, I guess, is true. But so is drawing an answer to anything, or drawing a threat. I don't get the critique.

And if her ability targetted specific cards in your opponent's deck, that would be great. But it only targets the top three. Which could be something good, or something irrelevant. You could very well mill their best creature, or a few counterspells. You can just as easily mill three lands. She doesn't remove threats that actually hit the table- she only removes the possibility of a threat, and only if it that threat happens to be in the top three cards.

I'm not saying she's unreliable because "Magic has an element of chance", and don't put words in my mouth. She's unreliable because Mill does precisely nothing to affect the state of the board, and it's usually useless until it wins- if you're getting beaten down, you don't want the planeswalker, you want an answer. If you're trying to control the board, you want a spell, not the planeswalker. She doesn't answer anything, she just gives you the possibility of maybe milling away something, and maybe getting a chance to steal it later. But so many things have to go right that I don't see it being worthwhile- you have to cast her in the first place, you have to protect her, you have to hit a creature with the +2, then wait a turn protecting her again, and then maybe put the creature you milled into play, assuming you actually hit one and it didn't cost more than 5. Otherwise, you mill again, and hope you hit something again? If you can consistently pull that off in a meaningful way, then you're probably already winning the game.

Control decks don't play Drownyard because they're trying to mill away their opponent's threats. They play Drownyard because it gives them a consistent, inevitable wincon that's difficult for a control deck to interact with. Ashiok is not consistent, or inevitable, or difficult to interact with, and she does nothing to help you win the game unless you're already winning the game. You have better uses for a card slot.

[Natirasha]

Bad Teferi+Bad Seedborne Muse doesn't a good card make.

[Sudo_Nym]

I doubt the Prophet is going to see much play. She's not costed aggressively enough for her ability to matter in the current standard. If things really slow down, then maybe- getting her to stick is probably game over, if some deck can make it work. It just feels very win-more to me, though.

[xRECKONERx]

sudo don't you not even play standard or really any actual magic

[Sudo_Nym]

sudo don't you not even play standard or really any actual magic

Ad Hominem. I've played lots of magic, including in the current standard. I don't play limited, however.

[xRECKONERx]

Must be someone else I'm thinking about.

Regardless, I still think you're wrong. She's not a huge bomb and the best planeswalker ever but she'll be good in the decks she's made for. The only thing I see her being weak against is fast aggro decks, but I think her abilities are very relevant everywhere else.

[Sudo_Nym]

I disagree, but the argument isn't going to be settled here. Once we see how the new format actually looks, we'll have a better idea of if she's playable or not. And if she's better than I'm evaluating, I'll be happy to admit I was wrong.

[chamber]

Let me remind you of your Boros reckoner evaluation chamber

I'm right (within reasonable tolerance) way more often than I'm wrong.

Edit: Also outside of the initial weekend where gatecrash made its debut I don't think my evaluation of reckoner was actually that far off(though still probably fairly outside reasonable tolerance), its only seen borderline play since then.