Micro 215: Shitty Joke Smalltown (over)

[JKMatthews]

Sorry for the delay, guys!

Non-consecutive commuter

please!

[JKMatthews]

VOTE: uctriton00
Don't know why you wouldn't RVS on somebody who's already voted/been voted for so that discussion actually happens...

So given that we all know the PRs anyway, is it worth discussing some sort of strategy or is it better to leave everyone to their own devices?

[JKMatthews]

I find listening to that song has the opposite of your desired effect...

[JKMatthews]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: StubbsKVM
For a completely innocuous vote. The irony is that

still

nobody has 2 votes on them, but mine's not RVS so hopefully that counts for something...

[JKMatthews]

I'm unsure - your 'reason' seems to be an RVS reason, but I often vote in RVS citing a nonsense reason but having intention.
Either way, I didn't realise the ambiguity of my statement, sorry. I didn't mean "my vote is the first non-RVS vote". I meant that it was ironic that I was putting a first vote on someone at the back end of RVS while essentially citing the reason "for putting a first vote on someone at the back end of RVS".

[JKMatthews]

Notice that I said "Is it worth discussing...", not "I would like to discuss..." My ability to strategise in formats I haven't played is abysmal in this game, so I thought I'd open up conversation re strategy. And even still, it is in theory possible to have an optimal strategy that doesn't explicitly state what everyone's doing.

JKM, why would would we plan something in public, or rather, why would you suggest we plan something in public

when we're on a truly level playing field with the Scum at this point in time, at least information-wise

? planning things out in public is only the best idea if there is claiming/clearing (usually of PR's) involved, or if there is an auto-Win strategy conceived. any other time public planning simply serves to inform Scum about actions which would otherwise be more unpredictable and (hopefully) more to our advantage

There's something fallacious about the bolded reasoning, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on it/expressing it. You say everyone knowing everyone's powers puts us on a "truly level" playing field, as though us not all knowing each other's PRs would be a disadvantage. But if that were true, every game of mafia would start with all the PRs claiming so that town would be on a "truly level" playing field. Given that scum already know

exactly who they want to pick off

, I would say town are decidedly disadvantaged compared to normal.
I'm happy to concede that open planning/strategising can be harmful to town, but the fact that bolded seems only to serve as a subtle "I am town" doesn't sit well with me...

[JKMatthews]

Please tell me how we know what scum are not (other than each townie personally knowing scum isn't their role)? Do you mean we know what roles are

in the game

? I feel like this is bordering on theory discussion, but my point more was:
Suppose rather than drafting these roles, we were each randomly assigned them (but were still informed of the complete list of roles), then randomly assigned alignment. Is the correct play for everybody to claim their role to create a level playing field?

I wholeheartedly agree.

[JKMatthews]

Not asking you to vote according to what I like. I expect town players to vote according to what's helpful for town, though...

[JKMatthews]

Yes, I mean we know what's

in the game

. That could seem trivial to you, and I was probably explaining in a roundabout way, but you obviously didn't get the full gist of my point because this:

Suppose rather than drafting these roles, we were each randomly assigned them (but were still informed of the complete list of roles), then randomly assigned alignment. Is the correct play for everybody to claim their role to create a level playing field?

...is something I would answer "no" to. You're not understanding me 100%. I'm saying that in a setup where Scum does not have the opportunity to lie about their Role, we essentially start off on what I consider to be a more advantageous footing/"level playing field", since Scum can now be more easily ousted through Night Action analyzation and process of elimination. In a setup where Scum have the chance to lie about their Role within reason (even if simply by claiming VT) there is considerably less proTown support for claiming as soon as possible.

In the hypothetical I proposed, scum also wouldn't have the chance to lie about their roles, even by claiming VT. I feel like we're having 2 tangential conversations, because I understand and agree with what you've been saying, other than the 'level playing field thing'.
In case my hypothetical wasn't clear, let me try again:
The set up is exactly the same as this game (everyone has a PR), except that instead of the PRs being drafted they were randomly assigned to us. Scum can't possibly lie about their role (unless they swapped claims with a buddy for some bizarre reason) because each of the X players has a unique PR from the list of X PRs. Does everyone claiming level the playing field?

I'm glad you agree Stubbs is scum though...

[JKMatthews]

Seems... insane given we've got 12 days left. I mean, I really think he's scum, but maybe we should let him actually say something real in case being this faffy has just been his playstyle?

[JKMatthews]

a) I've been wrong before
b) Either way, no scum on/off the wagon have said anything they have to justify yet, and intentionally denying town of the information seems reckless...

[JKMatthews]

Really it's only page 4...
And which guy, what's par for the course, and does that make whatever par is ok?

[JKMatthews]

FuDuzn was questioning me about asking NS about lynching Stubbs... just because you don't see the ambiguity in your statements it doesn't mean it's not there.

Explain the confidence in it being a mislynch.

[JKMatthews]

What. Thefuck. Wasthat.

Sorry Stubbs... I wonder how ironically quick nickthename will be lynched tomorrow...

[JKMatthews]

Did you note that Stubbs is heavily implying that he's town after being hammered...?

[JKMatthews]

Righto... I took it at face value...

[JKMatthews]

So yeah, I don't see why people shouldn't claim their actions (other than me I guess... I feel like claiming whether I commuted or not is just harmful...)

[JKMatthews]

Are people gonna claim their actions or what? I'd rather not put any more information out there until that's been done...

[JKMatthews]

Hey all... just thought I'd say I'm still reading the game. Hardly anything's happening though...

I think the dayvig gambit doesn't really speak either way... scum could easily do it to show that they're generating discussion.
The reaction also doesn't reveal much, as has already been stated...

VOTE: chkflip

Total gut.

[JKMatthews]

Yeah, that's pretty weird. Weirder than the other zero things that have happened.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Varsoon

[JKMatthews]

Well, that appears to be the actual format.

I'm town, don't really have any reads due to low activity... and there it is! Good luck all...

[JKMatthews]

Oh wow...
So NS is almost definitely town for that... confused about chkflip's reaction though. uctriton, why do you take it as a town tell?

[JKMatthews]

In this setup with lots of mess going on, I feel like scum would be more likely to vanillaise a tracker or similar that could only work against them rather than something that may aid them...

[JKMatthews]

I guess maybe it's chkflip/NS team and the whole thing is a ruse...

[JKMatthews]

I agree it could be misinterpreted as a NK, but it still only provides information to town, which is a good thing.
I don't disagree, but I'm talking about NS being town due to choice, so your point's not really relevant? Although I guess it means it could be NS/FuDuzn scumteam...

[JKMatthews]

No, it addresses your point, somewhat. Allow me to be more direct:
NS could look more town by vanilla-ing players who are 'anti-town'.

Yeah sorry, that's an obviously very good point. I'm not paying enough attention to this game.

[JKMatthews]

uctriton - I think you're misinterpreting the post you're referring to. It was essentially me typing out my internal monologue. "I guess it could be those two" should be read as "My guess is it's those two", but "I guess it's possible it's those two so my previous point loses value."

[JKMatthews]

*shouldn't be read as "My guess is it's those two"...

[JKMatthews]

uctriton - why did you trust FuDuzn so quickly in Lylo?
Also, you picked Lightning Rod quite highly, which implies you had a desire to be it for some reason. Why haven't you used it?

[JKMatthews]

Please, PLEASE don't answer questions aimed at other people during LyLo.

I think both you and Varsoon are acting strangely given the situation, I'm not sold either way

[JKMatthews]

It's not your concern. It's the way you're phrasing your arguments in a situation where you should just be saying "well I'm town so FuDuzn's scum"

[JKMatthews]

nick, the one option you missed is Varsoon AND FuDuzn are scum, which I don't think is actually all that unlikely. It's either that or FuDuzn and uct at this point to me.
None of the powers left in the game are that great for scum to have, so I have no idea why scum would care about killing a vanillaiser. Especially when there's a tracker left in the game. So, with the tracker still alive, the only power that's really threatening to scum, I don't believe they'd leave the tracker alive for the sake of WIFOM. And given that they could be intending to pull of this FuDuzn/Varsoon gambit, the vanillaiser seems like the one who would be the biggest hole in it (if he'd vanillaised the tracker without the tracker knowing).
Also, FuDuzn choosing to track Varsoon doesn't make much sense to me...
Also also, FuDuzn not seeing that loved doesn't matter in LyLo until post 261 despite it being discussed a bunch beforehand reads to me as either a) a lie to fake a 'townslip' and/or b) not reading because he's pushing an agenda.
I think FuDuzn is the only one I'd be happy to see lynched today.

Given the nature of Fuduzn's vote and use of exclusive evidence to push the wagon on me, I'm 100% sure he's scum.

This is so unnecessary to spell out. I don't understand why you wouldn't just say "I'm town so FuDuzn's lying"...

I really think it's both of them.

Varsoon, the fact that you're using overly formal language is why I'm so concerned about you.

[JKMatthews]

Woah... dunno how I screwed up the formatting on that...
"Varsoon, the fact that you're using overly formal language is why I'm so concerned about you." should go before the quote...

[JKMatthews]

Yes, but saying "I'm town so FuDuzn's lying" isn't remotely unclear...

[JKMatthews]

For sure, but there's already the dichotomy between you two anyway, it almost seems like you're not admitting it's there... hence my suspecting both of you...

[JKMatthews]

Or, once again, Varsoon and FuDuzn are both scum...

[JKMatthews]

I'd rather lynch FuDuzn... can't imagine a town tracker being left alive...

[JKMatthews]

So ridiculous. You're implying I'm scum because I don't trust you?

[JKMatthews]

Things I don't like:

FuDuzn is Tracker, but he's also scum. There's no strategies that would work with him, as I've already outlined the pitfalls of the Nick scenario.

In the event that he's scum

, he'll just kill people who aren't me until the game ends or I'm mislynched.

No, be because if I am scum and get a mislynch I still have to worry about Tomorrow

. I would be big time focused on just getting one mislynchbtoday, lime what you are doing.

So I'm still at a loss...
uctriton and nick, which way are you leaning?

[JKMatthews]

The way I see it, FuDuzn has missed blatantly obvious facts twice now (loved not working in LyLo), and now the fact that it's LyLo (despite the fact he acknowledged loved wasn't a factor anymore), which really just reads to me like he's way too busy being aggressive about getting Varsoon lynched to pay attention to what's actually going on.
Also, his response to me saying "why wouldn't scum kill the tracker?" being an implication that

I'm

scum for some reason is crazy.
So yeah, I'm very much leaning FuDuzn at this point. Definitely need to hear more from uct and nick before anything happens though...

P-Edit: FuDuzn... you wouldn't

need

mislynch support tomorrow, because it's LyLo and there wouldn't

be

a tomorrow...

[JKMatthews]

No, I don't see he is definite scum. This is really simple, I don't understand how you could possibly not comprehend.

You could easily be scum who is lying to mislynch to win the game. Stop ignoring that glaringly obvious point.
And I thought you thought I was scum with Varsoon. Why are you trying to convince me of anything if that's the case?

I'll talk about whoever I want. I've spoken about both of you. Varsoon's tone is off to me, but the things you're saying, and the logic of the situation, lead to you as scum...

[JKMatthews]

And no shit I could be scum driving a mislynch, excuse me talking from a perspective that speaks the truth, the ONLY perspective that speaks the truth.

You said this:

I already know he is scum, Varsoon already knows he is scum......don't you see in your eyes he is scum as well?

To which I said no. I agree with your statement of "no shit" I don't see it... that's why your question seems ridiculous.

So, please make a post about Varsoon.

I've said everything I want to say about Varsoon. Stop being ridiculous.

[JKMatthews]

Varsoon has done things that I think are worth commenting on, but you are my biggest scum read.

So yeah, I have been (to your second line), but it's not the same as pushing any agenda.

[JKMatthews]

What aren't you getting, FuDuzn? I don't have anything I want to ask Varsoon about. His tone is all that's off, and I've already had conversation with him about it. I'm not going to force conversation just because my top scum read is telling me too

[JKMatthews]

What math? Why is FuDuzn more trustworthy than Varsoon? (not saying you're wrong, genuinely would like to know)

[JKMatthews]

Alright, so it's not like any solid proof is going to show up. I'm going with my gut.

VOTE: FuDuzn

[JKMatthews]

Yeeeeeeees!
So happy to see you post without voting!

[JKMatthews]

Shit son, never would've picked that team.
Sorry FuDuzn, at the end of the day I thought it was you and Varsoon, but was more sure about you. It was more a matter of distrusting you than trusting Varsoon...