Mini 408 - EXiLE Mafia, MOD ABANDONED

[Raging Rabbit]

Dawg, if you and some other people disagree on the spot and flat out cannot be convinced, I'll stop arguing. Since you didn't reject it on the spot, I'm gonna try to explain my thinking again.

Let me give my interpretation:

Option 1 - Freedom - each townie votes for whichever two guys he considers the most suspicious.

Town nominations - Only placed on those whom people themselves feel are scummy.

Mafia nominations - No way of coordinating who's on the block.

Option 2 - Government - town decides on the 3 most suspicious guys as determined by whomever can talk the loudest to nominate a day in advance.

Town nominations - All go on the same 3 people, and said people will always be up for a lynch unless one gets NK'd (which still leaves 2 with chance to lynch an innocent based on who is right in the predetermination).

Agreed.

Mafia - Can help manipulate the nominations in a different way, by tricking the town into choosing the wrong three people.

Also true, but the mafia would have to manipulate the town to choose the wrong 3 people with

logic

, which is essentially the same as manipulating the town into a wrong lynch in a normal game. Forcing them to do that would also give us more chances to find the mafia, by inspecting everyone's logic. If we choose "freedom", however, they can just all nominate the same 2 innocents and have a fairly good chance to get them up for lynch, with no need to even explain themselves. IMHO, the town would be much better off with "government".

The way I look at it, 1 is true democracy. 2 is tyranny-by-majority.

How is this "tyranny-by-majority" different from the usual lynching system, though?

[JDodge]

The way I look at it, 1 is true democracy. 2 is tyranny-by-majority.

How is this "tyranny-by-majority" different from the usual lynching system, though?

Because nobody forces you to vote for someone.

[Skruffs]

Both sides have drawbacks. Both sides have oppurtunities. Doing it one way tonight doesn't mean we have to do it another way tommorrow night.

[GreenLiquid]

I am beginning a new theme, Animal Crossing Mafia. Although most of you already do this, please put Exile somewhere in your PM subjects so I know which game it portains to.

[Raging Rabbit]

Because nobody forces you to vote for someone.

But you eventually often have to

compromise

in order to have a majority.

Both sides have drawbacks. Both sides have oppurtunities. Doing it one way tonight doesn't mean we have to do it another way tommorrow night.

Sure. I'm just talking about

tonight

, we'll think about tommorow night when we get there. How can I build my posts in a way that would annoy you less, btw?


On a reasonably important note, I'll be a

whole lot

less active starting basically now. And I do mean a whole lot, though I'll try not to lurk. Rejoice!

[Skruffs]

Hmm? Oh I'm not really annoyed by them, I just see what other people are saying. I like you, bunny! (Disclaimer: Liking RR is not a scumtell)

[JDodge]

Because nobody forces you to vote for someone.

But you eventually often have to

compromise

in order to have a majority.

But nobody

forces

you to.

[Raging Rabbit]

Hmm? Oh I'm not really annoyed by them, I just see what other people are saying.

I'm glad you're not annoyed. Do please explain just what it is you and others don't like in my posts, though, so I could change it and we could all start having a better time (note: not gonna stop being sarcastic, so anything but that).

I like you, bunny! (Disclaimer: Liking RR is not a scumtell)

Maybe it's not be a scumtell, dear, but it's quite possibly a modkillable offense.

[Raging Rabbit]

But nobody forces you to.

True, but the general idea that some people have to compromise is the same. Could you explain why you disagree with a recent post of mine you haven't fully answered?

Dawg wrote:
Mafia - Can help manipulate the nominations in a different way, by tricking the town into choosing the wrong three people.


Also true, but the mafia would have to manipulate the town to choose the wrong 3 people with logic, which is essentially the same as manipulating the town into a wrong lynch in a normal game. Forcing them to do that would also give us more chances to find the mafia, by inspecting everyone's logic. If we choose "freedom", however, they can just all nominate the same 2 innocents and have a fairly good chance to get them up for lynch, with no need to even explain themselves. IMHO, the town would be much better off with "government".

[JDodge]

I equate it to the arguement between Libertarianism and Authoritarianism.

[Raging Rabbit]

I equate it to the arguement between Libertarianism and Authoritarianism.

I'm not gonna get into a political debate here. Try to think about this strategically, though, it's not about life philosophies. Do you also disagree it'd be the most efficient town strategy, or just don't want to have your "liberty" taken from you? If you also disagree, please explain why.

[Maz Medias]

I'll encapsulate the argument:

First, we'll consider, for purpose of argument, everybody to have a power role: the nominator.

Now, let's look to normal mafia...

Why do we not reveal night action targets the day before unless it's absolutely necessary?

Because any premeditation of night actions that mafia can know about

can and will be tampered with

. Don't underestimate the creativity of the scum. Also, considering the flavor of the game, don't count out the presence of scum power roles that deal with nominations. Romanus' claim already shows us that there are nominatory power roles, and I would be surprised if none of these came up scum.

So, because of the unknowns, and because of the myriad of ways the mafia could tamper with the nomation process, I feel that it's better to pursue this on an individual basis. Allowing mafia to know who to kill to narrow down the lynch board is very much a bad plan; allowing them to know it at all, in fact, is bad, because if one of their own is on the platform, they can intentionally BROADEN selections through their sabotage.

The plan of revealing nominations before they're made is disasterous. Info is info, yes, but showing the mafia our hands so that they can surgically strike the weak points is in no way a good play.

[Romanus]

I'll encapsulate the argument:

First, we'll consider, for purpose of argument, everybody to have a power role: the nominator.

Now, let's look to normal mafia...

Why do we not reveal night action targets the day before unless it's absolutely necessary?

Because any premeditation of night actions that mafia can know about can and will be tampered with. Don't underestimate the creativity of the scum. Also, considering the flavor of the game, don't count out the presence of scum power roles that deal with nominations. Romanus' claim already shows us that there are nominatory power roles, and I would be surprised if none of these came up scum.

So, because of the unknowns, and because of the myriad of ways the mafia could tamper with the nomation process, I feel that it's better to pursue this on an individual basis. Allowing mafia to know who to kill to narrow down the lynch board is very much a bad plan; allowing them to know it at all, in fact, is bad, because if one of their own is on the platform, they can intentionally BROADEN selections through their sabotage.

The plan of revealing nominations before they're made is disasterous. Info is info, yes, but showing the mafia our hands so that they can surgically strike the weak points is in no way a good play.

QFT

[Raging Rabbit]

So, because of the unknowns, and because of the myriad of ways the mafia could tamper with the nomation process, I feel that it's better to pursue this on an individual basis. Allowing mafia to know who to kill to narrow down the lynch board is very much a bad plan; allowing them to know it at all, in fact, is bad, because if one of their own is on the platform, they can intentionally BROADEN selections through their sabotage.

Keep in mind, though, that the mafia are able to coordinate their powers whether we choose to coordinate ours or not. "Goverment" gives them better knowledge of the best way to fuck us up, but also makes it

significantly

harder for them to fuck anything up since the town is

completely united

against them. I mean, scum would really need a whole bunch of power roles to fuck up an 8-7-7 balance (and that's assuming we mislynch today).

[Romanus]

I still don't like it. Like you said, this does not take into account any power roles, which we know that they are out there. You say a whole bunch, but I don't know about that. It would only take one, the right one, to mess stuff up.

[Raging Rabbit]

I still don't like it. Like you said, this does not take into account any power roles, which we know that they are out there. You say a whole bunch, but I don't know about that. It would only take one, the right one, to mess stuff up.

I'd personally prefer to take that chance rather than give the mafia (IMHO) a whole lot more nomination control, but of course I can't help it if you don't agree.

[JDodge]

I equate it to the arguement between Libertarianism and Authoritarianism.

I'm not gonna get into a political debate here. Try to think about this strategically, though, it's not about life philosophies. Do you also disagree it'd be the most efficient town strategy, or just don't want to have your "liberty" taken from you? If you also disagree, please explain why.

No, it's more of a matter that freedom/Libertarianism, while more disorganized, has less of a chance of being corrupt than government/Authoritarianism.

[Skruffs]

I don't think that is really a correct metaphor, does libertarianism take into account that political 'nominees' are being killed off and that there is a knowledgable group of subversives trying to destroy the political state entirely?maybe it does, i have no clue.

Okay so let's just leave it out in the open - if peole want to state cases on why some people should be nominated they are free to do so, but nobody is required to disclose who they are nominating, but in the morning we're going to try and figure out what's going on?

[Maz Medias]

Here's a bump above the locked games.

[Skruffs]

Okay.

Vote Skruffs

[Raging Rabbit]

Okay so let's just leave it out in the open - if peole want to state cases on why some people should be nominated they are free to do so, but nobody is required to disclose who they are nominating, but in the morning we're going to try and figure out what's going on?

Not

a good idea. If we're not guaranteed to have everyone voting the same guy to prevent the mafia from fucking with our desicions, it's better to avoid stating nominations in advance. It's either "Goverment" or "Anarchy" imo, any compromise is lesser to the two.

[quote="Skruffs"|]Okay.
Vote Skruffs [/quote]

Dude, you totally have to explain that martyr thing.

[Skruffs]

Naw. ANd you should stop pressing it! I originally offered to give myself up if none of the people nominated seemed really suspicoius. I think Dodge is pretty town, and while I've had doubts about you, I don't feel comfortable trying to get you lynched to save mytself. Cheesefan, not so sure about, but I understand his nomination of me (and mine of his) so i'd also feel weird lynching him atm. So. With everyone else rather cleared, I'll vote myself. There's nothing more to it than that, I promise.

[Ghyrt]

I'm back. Haven't had time to read yet.

[Skruffs]

Welcome back, Ghyrt. We missed you.

[Maz Medias]

Raging Rabbit still needs to die. :teach: