Mini 388: DOOMsville II {Game Over!}

[kilmenator]

MBL- you are quick to ask everyone else's suspect list and yet never provide one of your own. I do not like that at all.

My suspect lists are
1. Turbo- probably day killer (probably an SK to keep the game a little more balanced.
2. MBL- the fact that he refuses to claim for fear of counter claim (assumed) I almost have to believe he is scum.

That for me would be it, because we know we have 4 confirmed, and I know I am pro-town. Unless we have a investigation immune person, which would be terrible for the town.

With all that said,

unvote

for now, until we get everyone else's results and then I think we need a mass claim.

[MrBuddyLee]

You're blind. Reread my posts lol, I've stated who I think scum are and who I think might be SK if we have one.

[MrBuddyLee]

From yesterday:

Summarizing, if the daykiller's Norinel or Turbo, they could be either SK or vig. If the daykiller's kil, Adele, SL or geraint, they're an SK.

I'll leave it at this point up to Norinel and Turbo to decide whether or not they think it's wise to claim or deny daykiller. If NEITHER of you is, confirmation of that will be evidence of an SK in the game, which is something we would benefit from knowing.

As for scum, same arguments as before apply. One of {kil, MBL, turbo} or SL's naive/scum.

So you and turbo are my candidates for the final scum. You, Adele, SL and geraint are my candidates for a daykilling SK if there is one.

[kilmenator]

From yesterday:

Summarizing, if the daykiller's Norinel or Turbo, they could be either SK or vig. If the daykiller's kil, Adele, SL or geraint, they're an SK.

I'll leave it at this point up to Norinel and Turbo to decide whether or not they think it's wise to claim or deny daykiller. If NEITHER of you is, confirmation of that will be evidence of an SK in the game, which is something we would benefit from knowing.

As for scum, same arguments as before apply. One of {kil, MBL, turbo} or SL's naive/scum.

So you and turbo are my candidates for the final scum. You, Adele, SL and geraint are my candidates for a daykilling SK if there is one.

Sorry, I must have missed that. But it makes no sense that you think I could be the SK, knowing that I tracked you N1, it completely kills the idea that I could be the SK. It doesnt make sense that you wont claim. I know MBL is not the day killer, because I tracked him N1. Adele could be, being that she had no target last night, or I was RBed. Anyway, I guess until MBL claimed he and Turbo are both #1 on my list.

[MrBuddyLee]

You're dancing around here, kil. Do you think Turbo is scum or SK, and what's your reasoning? Do you think SL or his targets (geraint, Norinel, Adele) could be scum or SK or neither?

And why are you cleared in the least? Scum and SK will likely have powers in addition to killing ability. Your big theory is that I'm a mafia who can

kill and recruit

and yet you try to pretend like because you can track you can't kill?

Horsefeathers.

[kilmenator]

When did I ever say you can kill and recruit? I dont know anything emphatically. Scum and day killer lay in you and turbo, unless, someone SL investigated has investigation immunity.

MBL, without a claim, I am going to vote you. You are obviously not the doc, and have not claimed anything pro-town, probably because of lack of a good claim, therefore, I assume you are scum.

Vote-MBL

[Turbovolver]

Turbo, you asked me to provide examples to back up when i said i got the impression from rereading your posts that you liked asking questions. i did this even though i knew at the time i was confused by how the day was going. You had asked me to respong and i felt obliged to.

Yeah, that's great. But...

Auto/Ozy died after my vote for you and before i responded to your post. there had been a significant change in the state of play. I voted for you because at the time i thought you were the best person to vote for. i hope you allow me to change my mind on where to vote when something as serious as another player dieing occurs. And to say Auto/ozy's death is unreleated is strange, everything in a game of mafia is related...

THIS COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS YOUR EARLIER STORY!!

Just before you were saying "no, I'm not backing down. You'll see my vote is still on you!"
Now you are saying "After my vote the gamestate changed and I grew confused. Why won't you let me decide how I want to change my vote after major events in the thread?"

Well maybe I won't allow you to change your vote because you specifically said you were sticking to your vote? That you weren't backing down in the slightest?!

The thing you backed down from was your

logic

, not your

vote

anyway. And me questioning a bunch of people has NOTHING to do with these "gamestate-changing events". Something I've already said but you conveniently glossed over in your compelling-sounding but without-substance defense presented above.

You are

clearly

tailoring your defense to the accusation here, saying whatever you can to get people off your back. And it doesn't add up.

I don't know how it fits into this confusing-as-hell game, but I see no way you are not scum at this point.

Unvote: kilmenator
Vote: geraintm

[MrBuddyLee]

Wow, this game has gone bonkers.

I will repeat that a massclaim is a terrible idea. There are almost certainly two anti-town killers remaining given the amount of town power we see claimed or hinted at or turned up dead so far. We won't be nailing both killers before dawn and in fact may be nailing neither. In the meantime, scum will have to choose between a lucky shot for the scum of opposite alignment or shooting for a tasty power role. I'm pretty sure they'll shoot for the best power roles given that opportunity. A massclaim just makes that shot easier for them to optimize.

I've managed to maintain ambiguity about my role because it keeps me from being the obvious gank. I wish more of you would catch a clue and see what's going on here--I can't spell it out any more clearly.

[Adele]

Sorry for my absence.

Unvote

. I'm going to have to check MBL's reasoning (also the last VC's several pages back) so I'm not voting Kil

yet

, but I could definately see it happening in a short while. I also want to reread the geraintm backstory - I'm getting good vibes from Turbo, less good ones from geraintm (the MBL ones aren't great, but I don't recall offhand if that's maybe partly from another game - or because RR keeps telling me I'm wrong about him).

Against massclaim - with MBL on that for deffo.

[kilmenator]

Turbo- The problem I see with going after geraintm, is that fact that he is cleared by SL. And we have no reason to believe that SL isnt telling the truth, therefore, I dont think we should go after a cleared person. I dont like the fact that you are going after him even though he is cleared, that really sets off my scumdar. I would feel much better if you were going after those not cleared, even if it was me. We need to focus on catching scum tonight, not a cleared townie.

[ShadowLurker]

Vote MBL

A 1 shot mafia recruiter is common.
I don't like him asking us who the daykiller is.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ha. It's only a bad thing if they're pro-town. I suspect they're bad guy, why don't you, SL?

[kilmenator]

I am unsure of whether or not they are pro-town or not. I get mixed vibes when it comes to that, becacuse, Patrick-Day 1 did not make any sense to me, being I did not think he was that scummy, but Ozy-Day 2 or 3, whichever it was, did make sense to me, because of the set up of the other game. But, whatever, I guess speculating does not get us anywhere, being that the only person who could have day killed, that isnt cleared is turbo, because mine is a night ability and so is MBL's. So, MBL if you are pushing to find the scum with a day kill ability it has to be turbo (unless of course someone has immunity). But that is a whole other ball game. I am comfortable with a turbo/MBL lynch.

[MrBuddyLee]

the only person who could have day killed, that isnt cleared is turbo, because mine is a night ability and so is MBL's.

SKs are quite often investigation immune.

Your logic hasn't been this stellar this game, kil. The main reason I'm having trouble voting for you is because I play based more on posting style than pure logic because I think townies can often make logical mistakes. Right now, both scum and SK are probably hoping for a fast lynch of anyone who's not them, because then it'll be lynch or lose tomorrow and anything goes. If you're town, your faulty logic is giving them room to make bad plays and tomorrow say "oops my bad but I guess I just followed kil incorrectly

vote: kil

". Or you're scum.

If someone quickhammers me without asking the right questions first, please make them a prime suspect tomorrow.

Please note that the three people on me right now are 3/4 of the prime candidates for SK. All three have played shakily and borderline anti-town this game, and SL is only getting the benefit of the doubt because he's a claimed cop.

Personally, I have reason to believe geraint is the surest good guy amongst the three.

If you lynch me now you'll be lynch or lose tomorrow with 4 remaining (the final scum and one SK left). My advice is to look most carefully at Adele, turbo, kilmenator, and carefully evaluate SL's play independent of his claim if they're alive by then.

[kilmenator]

MBL- if you think all those people are suspect, why then have you only tried repeatedly to make a case against me? I am not sure how you expect me to play, I base my vote and cases against people on logic, not necessarily on if they made mistakes throughout the game. Scummy behavior needs to be taken care of, but not people who just sincerely make mistakes. While my play style is not the same as yours, it does not make mine any less than yours, it is just different. Since you are almost being lynched not may be your time to claim, so that if a quick hammer comes, we have more information on you.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm absolutely not taking issue with your playstyle--you post a lot and that allows people to gauge your words, which is most important by far. If people make logical mistakes and errors and then explain them away satisfactorily, it's all good.

For example, you just suggested that I claim so that if I get hammered you'll have more information on me. When I get hammered, you'll get my role from the mod, so the point of me claiming would be something else entirely. The pro would be that you'll understand what my deal has been. The con would be that scum will be able to figure out one, maybe two power roles via my claim. I weighed the prospects and I don't think it's wise to do that, I'd rather appeal to logic and try to convince town that lynching me's the wrong decision. If I die then the cat's out of the bag anyway and I've "claimed" posthumously.

I'll only claim if at least four people think it's wise. That way I know that at least two other townies have considered the logic and decided it's in the best interests of town. In one game I played with M-M, a doc refused to claim on principle and got lynched. I won't take this that far but I will make sure I don't do anything that hurts town.

Norinel, Adele and turbo could hammer me right now I believe. Norinel, you're the only one I see doing it, but I hope you'll take the time to talk things through before doing anything hasty.

[kilmenator]

Honestly, the fact that none of them have hammered is a positive for them, while they may not have checked in for a while. Sorry MBL, I completely fogot the mod tells the role when we are lynched, it honestly slipped my mind, being that IRL when we play, the mod does not tell the role, only whether or not they were innocent or guilty. Honestly, I have only played a few games on this site, so I foget important things. I guess I may be trying to hard to be a good player. But anyway, NO ONE HAMMER until MBL has had a chance to claim.

[MrBuddyLee]

Adele hasn't expressed suspicions with reasons behind them in quite some time. She's against a massclaim and believes there's an SK. She's expressed a willingness to lynch kil but has given no reasons that I've spotted reading back a few weeks.

If SL's gg and the SK is investigation immune, this town's in big trouble because we've been giving too many people free passes for too long.

I don't think SL can be SK in retrospect, because if he was, he wouldn't know who it was safe to proclaim as innocent. If he gambled and one of {Adele, Norinel, geraint} was scum, they'd know he was a fake (or less likely naive) cop and axe him. So I no longer think there's a reasonable chance that SL is SK, leaving him as scum or more likely, gg.

So Adele, geraint or kil (possibly but less likely Norinel or turbo) are SK. One of {kil, turbo, MBL} is scum unless SL gambitted as scum, which doesn't make sense.

There's a lot to analyze and it's not happening. Scum and SK are clearly laying low hoping not to get on each other's radar.

[Norinel]

Well, I certainly haven't checked in in a while. But I have no intention on hammering MBL at this time; at the very least, I'd like to look over the Day 2 kilme/MBL exchange to decide who's cold reading who.

I didn't daykill nobody. And I thought autoload was a modkill because he wasn't posting. I'll have to go reread that.

Is that double negative deliberate?

[MrBuddyLee]

Norinel hasn't expressed a real suspicion in a while either. He's given us a few hypotheses but not commented on which he sees as plausible.

When SL clamied cop and proclaimed Norinel innocent, Nor's posts over the next week were to express suspicion of ShadowLurker (healthy in and of itself) but curiously also added:

I'm a little surprised nobody's going after me for not posting thoughts on specific people

When you're confirmed innocent by a "cop", people tend to not go after you very hard, and it's curious that you'd find that surprising. I've said the same thing before in search of scum, but never when I've been a "confirmed".

Norinel, can you please summarize your thoughts on the gamestate and various alignments? What's your take on SL and his three cleared individuals? What's your take on the daykills? If I get lynched and turn up town, do you think you have a chance to salvage the game at that point, and if not, why aren't you trying harder to get today's lynch right?

[ShadowLurker]

Ha. It's only a bad thing if they're pro-town. I suspect they're bad guy, why don't you, SL?

I feel like I have a good guess who the daykiller is and I feel like I feel like they're town.

[MrBuddyLee]

Well unless it's you, I'm not going to buy your hunch. If you're believing they're town based on your investigation only, I think you're being naive. And I don't think the kills themselves look entirely pro-town reasoned, at least as reasoned in thread. No one made a compelling case for Patrick and Ozy to be scum before they died as far as I know.

You kind of stopped playing once you claimed and you've been letting everything ride on that.

[Adele]

I think I have a problem with MBL.

Ozy was killed by a serial killer, I think. In retrospect, he was axed right after I expressed the difficulty scum would have in getting him killed, and I think an SK probably looked at that and said, "Shit, I can't win as long as that guy's in the game so he'd might as well go now." The alternate explanation is that town looked at him and suddenly decided he was the scummiest player in the game, and no one's remotely expressed that thought besides kil, who claims not to have killed Ozy. It looks like an SK dayvig kill.

Here he's saying that an action that benefits the town has a scummy timbre to it. I happen to disagree with that, both as a rule and in this specific case.

If there are two scum left and SL is a real cop, then those scum are kil and Turbo. If there's just one scum left, they're probably not an SK, they're pure mafia.

He's extremely happy saying exactly how things are, how they must be, based on reasons that don't seem nearly strong enough to support such very strong opinions.

SL could also be a naive cop. Or scum. His failure to identify a single scumbag in three tries is notable.

Well, about one in three players is scum, usually, but the modkills on day 1 balanced it more towards town, so it's hardly statistically significant, is it? And I'm sure MBL knows that.

He goes on and on about what other people should say, what they should put out there. God forbid anyone except MBL keep anything to themself when he's about! I don't trust him. I think he's digging for info, looking for ways to tranform meacre evidence into highfalutin theories that don't necessarily follow. I don't want to give examples. I'm worried he's waiting for someone to point out the gaps in the logic so that he has that bit more to twist out of that person; that he's tempting information out of townies, not scum.

I won't vote in the next 24 hours, and as it happens I'm out of town on Monday, so I can promise I won't act on this for at least 48 hours. But I'm tired of MBL having swome kind of free pass because someone seems under the impression he once implied he might be the doc! I want more.

I want a claim from MBL.

[kilmenator]

MBL- that is geraintm, adele, and I who want a claim, one more and you need to make good on that promise. Anyone else think MBL should claim? I sure do. He and turbo are the only ones who are not cleared who havent claimed, and at this point, I feel he basically claimed doc, yet hasnt specifically said it. To me, he needs to come clean with the information he seems to be withholding... so... any other claim requests for MBL?

[geraintm]

You are

clearly

tailoring your defense to the accusation here, saying whatever you can to get people off your back. And it doesn't add up.

I don't know how it fits into this confusing-as-hell game, but I see no way you are not scum at this point.

Unvote: kilmenator
Vote: geraintm

turbo, forget my vote for you, the game has moved on since i did. you are the only person who is going on about it when quiet clearly there are other people more in the firing line than you.
however, i am finding your now voting for me strange to say the least.I am finding your posts odd, and if i wasn't so fixated on MBL i would be back on you... Voting someone who our cop (who no one has claimed isn't) has said is town just to me is odd...

MBL, i have no idea what role are hinting at. I really don't, sorry.

Re: discussion on a possible SK - i don't have anything to add to this discussion and am going to have to leave it upto more informed people to work it out...

what is teh vote situation by the way, Shadow, me and Kilm on MBL, turbo on me?