Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Thesp]

FoS: Thesp

Pro-town Thesp is

NEVER

wrong! >=[

I wish.

[Fritzler]

FoS: Thesp

Pro-town Thesp is

NEVER

wrong! >=[

FOS: Glork

except when he is.

HAHAHA

sorry

Vote: mgm

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Er... I just edited this by mistake...

[Patrick]

My main reason for voting Glork is that he's been unhelpful all game. He's provided relatively little content, and made bandwagony votes the whole time, either without reason or for wishy washy reasons. His stance on Andrew was inconsistent, at times voting him and saying he was a good lynch, then saying that actually Andrew isn't that scummy at all, then voting him to wagon the crap out of him.

He started the spectrumvoid wagon apparently based on a die roll. If it was a joke wagon, I think it had no place at that point in the game. A joke that leads to the outing and subsequent loss of a vig isn't funny in any way that I can see. If it wasn't a joke wagon, I still am unsure what the case against her was. A load of ppl seemed to hop on and ppl were just saying "SV is scummy" and nothing else. She wasn't a strong contributor, but then again I could say that for alot of ppl. I didn't like that wagon. Basically, Glork hasn't really done anything that I might expect from pro town Glork, or pro town anyone for that matter. I don't see what benefit his play has brought to the town.

I have no good vibes from Adele either, who just seems to be existing, and not much more.

[ChannelDelibird]

Glork has been very strange indeed. There's a lot of WIFOM in the issue of whether he'd do it as scum, though. It hardly looks like an unconscious thing.

[Glork]

Patrick, you need to learn to read between the lines.


My initial vote for AndrewS (Post 5) was a random vote at the start of the game. I moved off of him and onto CES also as a joke (for telling me to vote for Thesp -- Post 39). When AndrewS made his No Lynch suggestion and then claimed it was "to get reactions," I mentioned him as an alternative, my first serious insinuation that I found him scummy (Post 72). However, after the subsequent wagon and Ether's defense of him, I had changed my mind with regards to AndrewS. I also voted Ether for what I felt was a somewhat out-of-place defense of him. I mentioned to IH that scum will, at times, defend a townie who is in trouble to promote themselves in the eyes of the town (Post 202). (So when you asked why I was voting Ether and I said "Nah, I'm good," it was because I had already explained myself; I felt you just weren't paying enough attention to what was going on.) I then voted AndrewS basically to secure a lynch. He was the biggest wagon at the time, and getting hit with No Lynch at a deadline didn't seem like a very desirable situation. So yes, even though I felt AndrewS was probably pro-town, I went with his wagon in the end.

The random-vote situation was... well, very odd, to say the least. The first die-roll came up pointing to Thesp, which was coincidental as I'd been joking about Thesp's "obvious pro-towniness" throughout the early part of D1. When I switched, it happened to end up on somebody I mildly suspected anyway... also rather coincidental. I expected the die roll to end up on... well, some random person... so that I could vote them, look like a gigantic goofball, then get back to actually playing the game. As luck would have it, the second die-roll landed somewhere where I was actually happy with my vote. I expressed that later when I said that I thought I'd be okay with lynching her (Post 296). What I much more surprising is not the fact that I "started a bandwagon" with a random vote, but the fact that it actually became a bandwagon at all. Had my vote ended up on somebody without any votes at the time -- say, Zindaras -- I doubt anybody would have jumped aboard. I would expect scum to very willingly jump onto this bandwagon: its foundation was based on a random action by another player, it already had a couple of votes (Fritzler and someone else, I believe). It was really the perfect bandwagon to push to near-lynch. And it just so happened to be on a power role.

Basically, I understand where you're coming from, Patrick, but I feel that my play -- like Fritz's, so much of the time -- has a method behind the madness. You just have to look for it.


Currently, my top two suspects are MGM and Ether.
Ether, for her defense of AndrewS (which I still think was a little odd, though I can't place exactly why), and for Post 253, in which she responds to my joke-FoS:IH by seriously agreeing with me on a point that, truth be told, I don't even understand. She also makes a passing remark about MGM that feels scumbuddy-ish, saying she "doesn't like" MGM, but that she likes IH less.
I initially voted MGM yesterday for "not paying attention." He voted for me, saying that my No-Lynch suggestion was scummy and that I knew it was a bad idea when I thought it was quite obvious that I was joking around (though apparently Adele thought I was serious, too. Out of curiosity... did anybody

else

think that my suggestion was serious?) His Post 173 doesn't really sit well with me either. He explains it by saying that he felt the attackers of the bandwagons were opportunistic scum -- much as I felt that Ether was scum for attacking the AndrewS bandwagon. Yet he's still keeping his vote on me instead of looking to put it on one of these wagon-dismantlers. It seems to me that MGM is half-trying to defend himself and his wagoning of me, and that he's half-trying to point fingers elsewhere without actually pointing any fingers... if you know what I mean. Post 331 also seems quite fishy-fishy. He says that SV should claim, but when IH puts the -2 vote on SV, he goes ahead with his vote for AndrewS a mere three hours later. Help prod one player to a claim while already jumping on the next best wagon. Tricky. Quite tricky. Not tricky enough.


EDIT: Actually, I just found something that I really don't like about Thesp. His "This day has gone on waaaaaaaaay too long" comment (Post 256) came a mere

nine

days after the start of Day One (Fri, Jan 26 to Sun, Feb 04). Thesp, would you mind explaining why you think slightly over a week makes a day that's "way too long"?

FoS: Thesp

for real now.



So yeah, I'm looking at MGM, then Ether, then possibly Thesp or Adele, maybe even CDB. I'm not quite sure yet.

People who are pro-town: Patrick, Nightfall, probably Fritzler. Short list so far; this town has been pretty scummy as a whole.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

FoS: Glrok and Thesp"

[Mgm]

He says that SV should claim, but when IH puts the -2 vote on SV, he goes ahead with his vote for AndrewS a mere three hours later. Help prod one player to a claim while already jumping on the next best wagon. Tricky. Quite tricky. Not tricky enough.

For someone who tells Patrick to read between the lines you do preciously little of it yourself. I didn't tell SV to claim because I suspected him, I did it because I hoped it would derail his bandwagon so a few quick vote changes near the deadline wouldn't put him on the chopping block instead of Andrew.

I like how you wrote that last post. Quoting the posts you are talking about leaves little chance of accidental misinterpretation.

My suspected pro-town list atm: Nightfall and Patrick.

[Glork]

No, you were fishing for information. You were asking one player (who you didn't even really suspect) to claim despite subsequently pushing another wagon. I don't believe the "because I wanted to derail the wagon" bit for an instant. If SV hadn't claimed a confirmable role such as Vigilante, I doubt it would have derailed the wagon at all.


CES: Mind explaining the FoSes?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES: Mind explaining the FoSes?

In due time, Glrok, in due time.

[Glork]

No vote at the moment?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You're right.

Vote: Glrok

[Patrick]

Interesting response.
I don't mind your hammer of Andrew. I would likely have done it myself to secure a lynch, rather than no lynching.
One thing I don't like still, however, was your vote for Andrew in post 349. That was the one I questioned, to which you replied "I want to wagon the living crap out of him". This vote came shortly after you had said that you didn't find Andrew scummy. At that time, I think the deadline was in 5 days. So there was no real reason to narrow down the lynch that early, especially after you critisised me for doing something similar earlier, a mere 3 days before a deadline.

EDIT: Actually, I just found something that I really don't like about Thesp. His "This day has gone on waaaaaaaaay too long" comment (Post 256) came a mere nine days after the start of Day One (Fri, Jan 26 to Sun, Feb 04). Thesp, would you mind explaining why you think slightly over a week makes a day that's "way too long"? FoS: Thesp for real now.

Hmm. I'm mildly surprised to see this from you. You've surely played with Thesp alot more than me, and know his playstyle well. I've seen him say similar things in several games, even when it's far too early to be ending a day. I tend to see Thesp as someone who decides on a scum or two, and then stubbornly won't shift for ages, while repeating over and over than that person obviously needs to be killed ASAP. Sometimes he hits, sometimes he misses. I don't agree with his philosophy on day lengths, but I've seen it from him before as town.

[Patrick]

For someone who tells Patrick to read between the lines you do preciously little of it yourself. I didn't tell SV to claim because I suspected him, I did it because I hoped it would derail his bandwagon so a few quick vote changes near the deadline wouldn't put him on the chopping block instead of Andrew.

I agree this looks dodgy though.

[Glork]

Interesting response.
I don't mind your hammer of Andrew. I would likely have done it myself to secure a lynch, rather than no lynching.
One thing I don't like still, however, was your vote for Andrew in post 349. That was the one I questioned, to which you replied "I want to wagon the living crap out of him". This vote came shortly after you had said that you didn't find Andrew scummy. At that time, I think the deadline was in 5 days. So there was no real reason to narrow down the lynch that early, especially after you critisised me for doing something similar earlier, a mere 3 days before a deadline.

That particular vote was me going a little overboard with the ridiculous behavior. I take full responsibility for its apparent scumminess.

Hmm. I'm mildly surprised to see this from you. You've surely played with Thesp alot more than me, and know his playstyle well. I've seen him say similar things in several games, even when it's far too early to be ending a day. I tend to see Thesp as someone who decides on a scum or two, and then stubbornly won't shift for ages, while repeating over and over than that person obviously needs to be killed ASAP. Sometimes he hits, sometimes he misses. I don't agree with his philosophy on day lengths, but I've seen it from him before as town.

I've played with Thesp maybe 2-3 times, but I've never seen him demand that we end a day so quickly. It seemed out-of-place to me.
Whether it's a regular thing for him or not, I'd still like him to explain why he made that post.

[Mgm]

No, you were fishing for information. You were asking one player (who you didn't even really suspect) to claim despite subsequently pushing another wagon. I don't believe the "because I wanted to derail the wagon" bit for an instant. If SV hadn't claimed a confirmable role such as Vigilante, I doubt it would have derailed the wagon at all.

SV asked if someone wanted him to claim. You don't ask that if you're a townie, so that he had some form of power role (aka bullseye for the mafia) was pretty much a given. Granted, his itself role wasn't, but he wouldn't give that if he didn't want to. My opinion alone isn't going to change that. And it didn't. He said he claimed only because of the deadline.

Your claim I was fishing is untrue too. Here's the exact thing I told him.

SV, with a deadline coming, claiming is perhaps a good thing. If you wait too long to claim you're probably going to get lynched, unless people start switching.

He and SV were pretty close in the lynch count a few well placed switched could easily have killed him. Seeing as I most suspected Andrew, that's something I didn't want. So I recommended him to claim if it could save him from a lynch.

Isn't claiming the final defense to save your butt for any player?

Vote:Glork

for twisting my posts.

[MrBuddyLee]

Adele
Most likely of anyone to be scum. Mealy-mouthed near-complete lack of genuine suspicions, and significantly, seemed to take for granted that sv was actually a vig before that was confirmed.

ChannelDelibird
Voting purely on WIFOM, then again when commenting on Glork. Lame, and near-total lack of curiosity.

Cogito Ergo Sum
Way more chirpy and active than usual. I've seen him be lazy town and SK. Significantly manipulative D1. Seemingly strategic push on Thesp.

Ether
Moved off of IH as soon as it was evident he was being vigged, in the same post in which she said she found IH's postings helpful in assessing another player. Bzzt, if you think someone's scum you look for the manipulation in their posts, not rely upon them for greater insight. Ether's also probably scum.

Fritzler
Early vote on Thesp could have been part of a coordinated pregame strat to get Thesp run up for a claim...

Glork
Makes a visible point of not being part of the Thespwagon attempt. Doesn't question sv or discourage her from claiming when she's run up to L-2 for pretty much no reason. Voted MGM yet wanted an IH vig. Good post today, but if he's scum he had to do that to head off flak from yesterday's poor show.

MgM
He's reading the thread more carefully than most. He said a few things that made no sense, but looks to be hunting for contradictions.

MrBuddyLee

Nightfall
Comments positively on the Vote Thesp activity without actually voting Thesp. Large quantity of analysis that looks genuine. Subtle defense of Glork, unapologetic about the Andrew lynch.

Patrick
Yet another person a little weird about Glork and the early Thesp-wagon attempt. Likes the Thesp list of 4 and lightheartedly attempts to narrow attention to that list. Seems to be reading the game more carefully than most.

Thesp
Voted Andrew, never moved it. Pushed it aggressively. Created a list of four and advocated a vig of the most "useless" one in this game. A lot of overt manipulation and leading of the town. Most notably, though he was pushy about his theories and his scumlist, he didn't try to derail the IH vig even though IH wasn't on his scumlist. Looks like scum happy with the bad vig decision, making a minimal alternate vig suggestion without really trying to make it happen. Aggressive when it suits, passive when it suits. Probably scum.

Zindaras
Defends andrew, decent analysis, subtly advocates a Thesp lynch if Andrew turns up town, satisfied with the IH vig.

Why were scum happy with the IH vig and pushing it/not fighting it? Cause he was an easy target, probably not for his suspicions, which were never driven home in a convincing manner.

The sheer amount of unusual attention paid to a Thespwagon D1 leads me to believe it was part of a scum strategy discussed N0. Whether or not Thesp was a part of it, it looks like scum saw the benefit in it, and if they didn't plan it ahead of time, it looks like some followed each others' leads in making it a notable D1 event.

vote: Thesp,

mafia godfather recklessly unafraid of investigation N1 and drawing attention away from his babes of doom.

FOS: Ether, Adele

[Mgm]

MBL, can you give the post number of the post you're referring to with regard to your thoughts on Ether?

[MrBuddyLee]

407

[Glork]

Wow. MBL's assessment of the game is surprisingly similar to my own.


I might have to review my own suspicions. :/

[Glork]

Question, MBL: If you think Adele is most likely of anyone to be scum, why are you voting Thesp and merely FoSing Adele?

[MrBuddyLee]

I think I typed that before I noticed Thesp's failure to contest the IH vig, which is the most glaring event in the game thus far. Read Adele's comments about sv after her claim though and you'll see why Adele stood out as scummiest before that observation about Thesp.

[Patrick]

Weird. I though the whole 'Thespwagon' thing was a joke. I don't get how MBL thinks a load of ppl were planning on getting a claim out of Thesp, because of an early wagon that was based on nothing. When looking at the game, I have to admit I didn't give it a second thought. As I saw it, the game pretty much started with Andrew's little stunt.
@Glork, sorry I assumed you'd played millions of games with Thesp for some reason.

[Adele]

Wow. As ever, love the analysis, MBL. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but it's a really useful document to work from.

Adele
Most likely of anyone to be scum. Mealy-mouthed near-complete lack of genuine suspicions, and significantly, seemed to take for granted that sv was actually a vig before that was confirmed.

To the first point, I

am

having difficulty keeping up with a larger-than-mini game (I expected it to feel only slightly larger, but with it being invitational too there's been a lot of content to keep up with). I'm hoping that today and tomorrow you'll see me transform back to my usual opinionated self.
To the second, my requests to SV as to whom she should vig were in large part because we

couldn't

assume she was vig but only take the NKs of the night as evidence. With such an eminently confirmable role, I'll certainly agree I no longer thought she should be the lynch victim.

Read Adele's comments about sv after her claim though and you'll see why Adele stood out as scummiest before that observation about Thesp.

Well, let's see:

Unvote

.

If I was a vig it'd be a tossup between Andrew/MGM/maybe Glork if those two weren't an option.

Perhaps even literally.

My ideal vigging scenario (I know you're all on tenterhooks ) would be if SV took town input, picked out about 3 solid targets (and told us who, possibly) and random.org'd between them. Randomisation is a valid methodology in Game Theory precisely because of WIFOM issues (although the textbooks don't call it that), and I'm always uncomfortable playing stone-paper-scissors if I don't even know who the opponent is.

I don't get it. Having realised that there's no SK, I'm acting as though SV, claimed vig, would take input from the town as to the vig victim if he is vig, and be shown up as a liar if he's not. Why's that bad?

[Nightfall]

I'm chalking this one up to bad memory if we have but Glork, have you and I played that many games together? I know I try to be in a lot of the games you mod, but I'm not sure about actually playing together. I ask this because I'm getting a odd impression from your posting. In day one you semed kind of sarcastic and joking, faily agressive and short of words. now in day 2 you seem to be analytical and more calm and careful about where you place your vote. I understand that this fits largely into your post a while back about reading between the lines and maybe the fact that we are down 3 town roles results in you taking things more cautious, but it is still a fairly significant change, at least on the surface.

P.S. my next post should be a pbpa on ether and then I'll try and do one on MgM.