Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[Titus]

@Varsoon, the amount of scum is unknown but three or four I believe. If four it would be 3 mafia and a serial killer.

Reading between you and saki will give valuable information based on voting patterns for the group. Lynching between the two of you will be my primary focus because of the belief I feel it would be stupid for the town to do anything else as town. There's a less than 3% chance (probably closer to 1%) that both of you could be town no matter how convincing your arguments are. I'd take those odds to lynch every time in a game of mafia.

That doesn't mean ignoring everyone else however. Highlighting the inconsistencies and rapid defending/attacking of other players is something that would be beneficial to determining the scum teams, likely other scum and actions everyone would take at night.

@Paschendale, understood. I'd be putting up now but I have dinner with the in-laws in an hour or so and I want to make this clear.

[Does Bo Know]

Votecount 1.33

[L-3] Varsoon - jmo16mla, Dyslexicon, Titus, TunnelVision
[L-4] Vote Me - oriole, Paschendale, Flench
[L-5] Titus - Saki, CherryDrPepper
[L-5] jmo16mla - StubbsKVM, Varsoon

Not Voting: Vote Me, Glass

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is Friday, August 2nd, 2013 at 7:30 PM CST ((expired on 2013-08-02 19:30:00)).

---

StubbsKVM is V/LA until July 22nd.

[oriole]

@Oriole: How do you feel about Tunnel's case on me, about Pasche's dismantling of the case, and about my play until this point?
@Everyone: How should we encourage/get the lurkers/inactive players to be more active?

I'll get to TunnelVision's case in a bit; I'm planning a rather large post that goes through the arguments. It'll be good to go shortly.

About your play in general: The main thing that bothered me about it was in 182 you described your play as a "crummy Varsoon tactic". However, until recently, I hadn't see you show any results from this tactic. Now, you say you've caught TV with it, so... I'm not a big fan overall, but if it works for you, that's fine.

The lurker question I don't feel has a straightforward answer. I mean, the thread's been better about not vomiting pages to read, and I do think the quality of posts has improved as a result. If they don't feel compelled to post now, votes and pressure are probably the next steps.

[oriole]

Spoiler: The Varsoon case and Counters

VOTE: Varsoon

1) Contradicting yourself multiple times (you're a walking talking paradox)

Ah, hell, why not. The thread is moving at a snail's pace anyway.

1) Already admitting to VI play from the onset of the game. Had I not counter-claimed, I would be an unlikely NK target. Now my VI play is solely for WIFOM.

What a shame that Tunnel neglected to provide any examples.

I agree with Pasche here. If Varsoon contradicted himself "multiple times", there should be examples available.

2) Playing like you don't know about the game setup (comment about jailer role) but you counter claimed Saki's RB claim. Lie to me and tell me you didn't check the game setup before you counter claimed?

2) I honestly do not know how this setup works. I know it's semi-open, which I think means there's only certain setups possible. My counter-claim was made on the basis that I've never seen a 13-player game with two of the same role in Town.

Looking at the set-up would have indicated that there

is

a possibility of 2 town roleblockers. Wouldn't a counterclaim of Saki indicate he didn't know that?

3) Subtly trying to throw me off you by mis-representing in 660

3) Or I just interpreted you wrong. /shrug. From what I read, you wanted me to explain my gambit, but explaining my gambit loops back to me being more succeptable to NKs and my earlier play being for naught. See 1. Also, you coming into the thread hot and willing to throw fire on people's backs rather than provide analysis of the entire game/playerbase was what I was commenting on in my first line.

I guess the line in question was the "exploit a lynch" line. It was certainly accusatory, but Varsoon is correct in saying the prior posts had mostly (solely?) pressured Varsoon and Saki.

4) I feel pretty confident that Saki is town

4) Surprise, so do I. Please read the thread. If Saki's town, it doesn't make me scum, either. This is a relational-tell based on a read that you're working on, and it's not good evidence in any game.

I'm not sure where TV's Saki=town read comes from here, because earlier he said he was entertaining the notion both of you were scum and was pressuring Saki pretty hard, (with an accusation of Glass thrown in).

5) Dominating the conversation (lots of posts), I don't see any real scum hunting. You've got a back door open to exit every argument that you seem to talk yourself into/out of.

5) I always have a high post count/lots of noise. If you think that I haven't done anything to hunt scum, then I guess my efforts and pressure are too subtle (not really) for you to pick up? As for having a means out of things, that's another quip on my VI/obvscum play. If you notice, I add one of these after each small bit of pressure I make. A sort of 'but maybe not' addendum.

I don't like the handwaving of this as "VI/obvscum' play", actually. It's an excuse. I'm not even sure VIs are that wishy-washy (scum might be, though).

6) Buddying, non game related content, conversational "let's be pals" tone.

6) Already talked about buddying being null and a part of my play earlier. Non-game content is null as well. This point feels like it's grasping for straws. If you think people can't be conversational and pally with folks they've been in games with before, I'd be terrified to see you in a veteran game like Xenoblade.

This is a poor point; the buddying conversational tone is a playstyle thing rather than an alignment tell.

7) Your attention seeking response to the suggestion of a Mason role, does not compute. Even if I believe your explanation 100%, I think you were setting yourself up for a role claim very early in the day phase. Action + town motivation don't match here.

7) I felt pressured into a weird place when Titus not-so-subtly implied that I was a Mason with Vote-me. I should have just ignored him, but, really, it's whatever. Yeah, that was a shitty play on my part.

I feel like this point has been ceded to TunnelVision instead of rebutted. I'd have to agree, though.

8) Counter claiming against Saki should've been a fire and brimstone show. You were weak and left yourself a back door to escape, but you stated that you were claiming RB because somebody else claimed your role. Your action + town motivation don't match here.

8) My town motivation for CC'ing RB is because I wasn't aware the setup could have two RBs in it for town. Furthermore, I [AM IN A GAME I CANT TALK ABOUT SO I WONT] have seen VTs claim PRs on D1, which is why I pulled back even harder. My current standing is that Saki is either a VT or is actually a town RB like I am.

That you didn't think that there could be 2 town RB should have made it "fire and brimstone", though, because then Saki would be 100% scum. I can see pulling back when you found out it is possible.

9)

PYSCHOBABBLE ALERT

9) Already refuted this, and my points on 1 and 2 should further do so.

I think I covered this when I talked about how I feel about Varsoon's overall play.

10) You've played enough mafia, you're not a noob, so you lose the noob defense for the shenanigans.

10) If you're aware of my history on this site, you'd know that I pull more shenanigans than any noob. Try again.

I don't remember Varsoon trying to use the noob defence.

11) You've been so cognizant of your meta, mentioning the difference between this and that, but refuting the usefulness of meta. Here's what really threw me... you set yourself up to play like your Village Idiot town game as mafia:

Nacho once said my smoking-gun scum meta is playing a really safe and hardcore, methodical town while, as town, I play Village Idiot.

It gives you the ability to play like a town rube, and write it off as your typical town game, while masking your scumball role. (preview edit, lulz)

11) The thing that really threw you is another hint I dropped for people around third level. I openly say that being nuts is my town-meta. I then play nuts. People on the second level would understand this is my town meta, but third-level thinking would say that this is an artificial approach. If I was aware of my zany, absurd play being my town-meta, why, as scum, would I preface it with the post about Nacho's analysis of my meta? So that third-level scum players trying to exploit it would be caught by that snare, but, more than that, to laugh forever at people who rely on meta to make cases.

Both this point and it's rebuttal are pure WIFOM. Ew.

12) You're trying to follow somebody else into hanging Saki. You did it with me in 614. You did it with somebody else when they put pressure on Saki. I'll dig it out.

12) No, not really. Saki is hard-town to me right now, with very little chance of changing. I won't be putting a vote on Saki for the rest of this game. Again, good try.

That's nice and all Varsoon, but it doesn't address the accusation made. It doesn't matter what your current read of Saki is, because that's not where the point takes place (if this makes any sense).

13) You did some fear-mongering about mislynching a town power role.

13) It's not nearly fear-mongering as much as it is being cautious. If Saki is really TRB, then that makes us both TRB, which is a terrible thing for us both to be since we've claimed it. Shitty second level players will lynch one, then the other, which would cost two TRBs. If Saki is VT, a similar scenario can unfold, but my lynch is less likely. Regardless, Saki isn't the lynch for today.

I don't think this point is specific enough; it doesn't point out where the fear-mongering was or the subject (was it lynching Varsoon, or lynching between Varsoon and Saki?)

Long story short, I don't think TunnelVision's case is particularly compelling, points 1 and 13 need examples from TV, and really only 5 and 12 I don't like Varsoon's response to.

[Paschendale]

@Pasche: I think we can all agree that some of our lurkers are less pro-town/more scummy than others. This is why I have a vote on JMO, because I feel he's the worst offender. Does your vote on Vote Me reflect your sentiments in 847?

I don't really understand the question. Do you mean to ask if I find Vote Me the most anti-town at the moment? I do, but not by a wide margin.

@Oriole: How do you feel about Tunnel's case on me, about Pasche's dismantling of the case, and about my play until this point?
@Everyone: How should we encourage/get the lurkers/inactive players to be more active?

I'll get to TunnelVision's case in a bit; I'm planning a rather large post that goes through the arguments. It'll be good to go shortly.

About your play in general: The main thing that bothered me about it was in 182 you described your play as a "crummy Varsoon tactic". However, until recently, I hadn't see you show any results from this tactic. Now, you say you've caught TV with it, so... I'm not a big fan overall, but if it works for you, that's fine.

The lurker question I don't feel has a straightforward answer. I mean, the thread's been better about not vomiting pages to read, and I do think the quality of posts has improved as a result. If they don't feel compelled to post now, votes and pressure are probably the next steps.

I like pretty much everything in this post.

[Varsoon]

@Pasche: Yeah, that's what I mean. Do you find him to be the most anti-town lurker, or is your vote there for any other reason?

[Does Bo Know]

I have decided to give Vote Me another 24 hours to respond to his prod. I did more research on exact times that he had posted before his first prod, and he didn't deserve the first prod; he had posted once in a 48 hour period, between the 24 hours after he asked for a 24-hour V/LA (that's what I'm counting), and 48 hours after. Earlier, I told him the prod did count and that I did see his request, but that I personally wouldn't write down as a V/LA.

Just another few warnings: when you go V/LA, or make any other request to me, please bold it. I do not recommend planning a V/LA for less than 24 hours if you plan on keeping up with the game regularly anyway. And, I still stand by that players have 24 hours to answer a prod, because at the rate this game is going, I'd rather not have a player go more than 4 days without reading the game.

Thank you for understanding. I'm just trying to make this as fair as I can.
~DBK

[Flench]

So when he gets replaced, do we interrogate the new guy after he reads the 35 pages...this could take a while.

[Titus]

Lurker wall

VoteMe - Has all of five posts. Last two posts are VLA status. He hasn't posted for three days. So he has three "legitimate" posts. His first post in the game, VoteMe says he's never voting Varsoon. In his second post, he's enquiring about something being different than Varsoon's usual town meta. However, to have a read that you'd never vote someone this early, you'd almost have to know their meta backwards and forwards. There is some hint of scumhunting but overall, I'm getting a scum vibe. If Varsoon is scum, Vote Me is almost certainly.

Stubbs - Far too many of his posts are about prods and VLAs. There is some scum hunting going on here though. Some of his posts have no point to them. Ex: Something about his reads kicking the game in higher gear. Barely leaning scum here.

jmo - buddies me early, cannot remember who he has fosed, seems to shift wildly between players without much thought shown... scum or newbtown are most likely options here.

Glass, seems to be pretty town for a lurker. Lots of scum hunting and logic but seems to have vanished altogether. However, it wouldn't surprise me if Glass and Varsoon are scum together given his posts defend Varsoon a fair amount. I don't like Glass's criticism of CherryPepper for wanting to consult his other head before voting.

Mod: Can we get a prod on Glass?

Dyslexicon - Town. Painfully town. She has very few posts but all of his/her posts are spectacular. I don't know what Dyslexicon needs to contribute more but whatever s/he needs within reason, it should be strongly considered.

TunnelVision - Most likely town. TunnelVision has said his playstyle matches my own and he sees the same issues I see a lot. Unfortunately, this makes me really tempted to lie and see if he sheeps with me or not. There's no point to this on Day 1 but I'll have to scrutinze him closer. TunnelVision's votes are thought out and he emphasizes the wrong point from time to time. I do that sometimes myself. Which one of you is number 1 (the hydra head with the playstyle like mine)? I don't see him as a lurker, but some do so I put him here.

[Does Bo Know]

Glass has been prodded.
~DBK

[Titus]

Just realized Flench was cut off from my copy-paste.

Flench - Null read. I thought he was scum at the start due to some of the language he used but his associations seem well thought through, even if I disagree with some of them. I'll want to see how he acts in the future.

[Titus]

The Case for Lynching Varsoon

1. The lynch should be between Varsoon and Saki because there is about a 1% chance of them both being town. If they both were town, I should be getting a lot more encouragement on this point. Given there is NO certainty in mafia, this is as close as we are going to get that one of the two is indeed scum. Furthermore, a scum player would know they'd be lynched if the other one dies.

Varsoon as scum -

Meta Contradictions - Varsoon contradicts or at least confuses the issues here regarding meta in posts . In 127 he says anyone reading his meta can know what alignment

and role

he is. I looked through Varsoon's meta. I haven't found a roleblocker yet. In his next serious post (132), he labels me town for not being concerned about the meta. Post 135 he gives a "firm middle finger" to anyone who uses meta to read him. Those posts take place within 24 hours of each other. Posts 127 and 132 are within two hours of each other.

His interactions with Saki - On post 180, Varsoon votes Saki as a pressure for a player on VLA. He maintains his vote there the entire time and throughout the CC process, by that point Saki is posting and contributing. I would expect town to have some vote flipping as they investigate. As we all know, Varsoon didn't CC Saki with fire and brimstone. First he asked if it would be a bad time to CC. Really, who gives a crap if it's a bad time. Having all the information out there is helpful. He seems to go back and forth. Before Saki's claim, Varsoon was convinced Saki was scum. In 280, he really pushes a Saki lynch hard. After Saki's claim, Varsoon leans Saki's scum. Later on, he pushes the line that Saki might be town along with him (despite the one percent probability of that), unless Varsoon is a vanilla townie. Varsoon refuses to claim that. Later, Varsoon is convinced Saki is town and a roleblocker and that he is too. At some point, he should be angry or doubt Saki's town status. Yet, with each passing day Varsoon becomes more convinced. He says that he won't put a vote on Saki ever? That doesn't make sense. Town should not be closing off avenues for voting someone unless they are the innocent child, dead or in most cases, cleared by a confirmed cop. The refusal to consider Saki as scum looks more like an exit strategy in case Saki flips town or gets killed at night.

Suddenly shifting read on me - Varsoon has gone back and forth on my town/scum status repeatedly on Day 1. He opens with me as town, and later says that he starts with players as scum until he can confirm them as town. Post 180, Varsoon says I'm right for not trusting him. 280, Varsoon uses the "too town" argument for what? Saying he needs to be paranoid? He's still convinced I'm town until post 580. Around that point, is when I start to look at the numbers and know that either Varsoon or Saki is likely lying. Post 604 is a load of contradictions I'm a suspect who is town and Saki is a believable town who is scum. That sounds like someone obfuscating any legitimate form of a read. Post 692, Varsoon is upset with Cherry for fueling what he's arguing as a three way town fight. Then, in 715 he says he sees the arguments that I'm supposedly scum. Towards the end of the day, he's second guessing the Titus wagon. It seems like Varsoon is going whichever way the wind blows.

Total Lack of Anger or Passion - Varsoon was easy going with his claim, he's easy going with votes placed on him, he's emotionally distant while buddying. He's not getting upset with confirmed town players when he feels they are doing something not smart.

Not Reading the Setup - I don't buy anyone not reading the setup. It's one thing to miscomprehend but I don't think anyone deliberately ignores the setup.

jmo - Varsoon is pushing a jmo lynch hard. He's been pushing it since the start of the game due to a suspicious vote jmo made at the start. Given jmo's lurkiness, Varsoon is said almost all of us think he's scum but yet only one votes him. True, but Varsoon didn't exactly change over his vote. I'm not as sure on jmo being scum as I am with Varsoon being scum, so I'm not voting jmo. I'm pretty sure most of us feel the same way. The jmo thing just seems to be going back to a target of convenience and then baiting us by saying we all agree.

Village Idiot (VI) play - This seems to be an almost universal excuse. Oh I'm just playing the village idiot, don't mind me.

Second/Third/Fourth Level Play - This seems to be a deflection. I'm a village idiot pretending to be something pretending to be something else pretending to be a roleblocker? I don't get this at all. It's not clear and it looks to be a deflection/obfuscation mechanism along the lines of village idiot.


----------------

Notes on Saki

1) Definitely Newbie Something - All of his major FoSes voted him at some point. This seems to not be smart for scum. If Saki is scum, he's extremely newbie scum. However, if that's the case, I would have expected something along the lines of a slip by now. I haven't seen anything like that.

2) Wanting to claim/Not wanting to claim - Giving Saki the benefit of the doubt and that he's a poor communicator, he walked himself into a position that caused me to trigger his claim. If so, that is consistent with town motivation. By claiming so early, we could turn the lynch train onto someone else.

==================

Risk reward factors for both

Supposing one is the godfather, this scenario is excellent for them. The cop checks them, they are legitimate and the town believes that the 1% scenario actually happened. This is especially beneficial if the Godfather gets us to lynch outside of the two of them. This analysis also applies to the investigation immune Serial Killer. There's only one setup where neither a GF or Serial Killer is present, and multiple where both are.

In the rare event both are scum, they don't want us to lynch either of them. If we do, that's no problem, the other is "confirmed" roleblocker. Also, since we don't get messages when roleblocked in this version if roleblocked as townie, it's harder to prove there is a roleblocker in the game at all.

Roleblocker is the perfect CC for a scum roleblocker.

The biggest hurdle is neither Saki nor Varsoon seem to be attacking each other. I find this EXTREMELY odd. One of them could be a little nuts but both of them? With such long probabilities of them both being who they say they are? Varsoon especially worries me. I doubt Varsoon wins as many games as he does by totally ignoring the likelihood of the obvious. I cannot really come up with a town motivation where they just pretend like the other is the 1 in a hundred truth teller. For someone willing to take risks like Varsoon, he seems awfully reluctant to lynch a CCer that's almost certainly scum. Why not?

[Varsoon]

I'm not attacking Saki 'cus he's town.
Also, I didn't read the setup, still haven't read the setup, and so on.
I'm not a liar, Titus.
I might be a jerk, but not a liar.

[Varsoon]

Also-also, I believe Saki because I believe Saki. We had good interactions since my CC.
Double-also, you're missing something big, Titus.

[Titus]

Wait, you're claiming you still haven't read the setup? Do it now. There's absolutely no town motivation for not reading it any longer. You absolutely need to drop the village idiot thing if you are indeed town. We don't need idiots. We need logical thinkers who can deduce what's right and wrong.

Also, what makes you so certain that Saki is town? If you're town (doubt it), then there's only a 1% chance he's town too. So, you'd need to be damn near certain Saki was town. What makes you so certain?

What's the big thing I'm missing?

[Varsoon]

Link it to me?

One percent is not something you can ignore. Allow me to give you an example:
I've been playing Rogue Legacy lately. In it, you up your character's stats over time. I don't waste my resources increasing my crit chance, so it's still at 2%.
Regardless, there have been several tense situations where I had to hit an enemy twice to kill it, but I landed a critical hit, killed it in one hit, and was able to continue without dying.

I don't like speculating on the setup. I'd rather read people based on what they contribute to the game, and so on. If you continue to define my play by the way you approach games, you probably won't be able to see the motivation behind a lot of the plays I make.

What makes me certain that Saki is town is that the interaction we've had is genuine, and Saki's come off as newb-town who thought he had to claim at L-1, as in, seriously thought that. I put all the pressure I could on Saki to make sure it was true. I CC'd Saki, voted Saki, got a wagon to L-3 on Saki, and all of what Saki did during that time proved that Saki is town. Saki's responses were genuine, he felt defensive, he held by his claim without pulling back from it, and so on. I probed it pretty hard, and figured out that Saki was simply playing town the way Saki felt town should be played, with no gimmicks, tricks, and so on.

So, Saki's town.

[Titus]

Detailed Setup

One percent cannot be ignored. Correct. Over time, 1% odds will turn out to be fruitful indeed. However, given the slim likelihood of you both being town, I'd want solid evidence of you both being town before I could consider lynching outside the two of you. I don't have it at all. Yeah 1 time out of 100 I'd be wrong. In your scenario with a 2% critical chance, I bet you've had hundreds of opportunities to roll that critical chance thing. We don't have that. We have a scenario where 99/100 times lynching between the two of you would confirm a scum. I'd take that. I'm hardly ignoring the 1% chance. I'm just stating that it's foolish not to lynch between the two of you unless we're 100% certain you are both town. I am not, so I'm not going to advocate lynching outside the two of you.

If you had 100 dollars, would you bet it all on a 1% chance or would you bet it on the 99% chance? Most would bet on the 99% chance unless they had insider information that the 1% chance was the right route.

[Varsoon]

Reading the setup now.

Yeah, it's a low chance of it being possible.
Didn't you just write "For someone willing to take risks like Varsoon, he seems awfully reluctant to lynch a CCer that's almost certainly scum."
Isn't it an even bigger risk for me to be going with the 1% chance?

Why does anyone ever put everything on 0 in roulette?
Gambling is fun.

Furthermore, there's 3/4 scum to catch. If Saki is scum, he's got to walk on eggshells for the rest of the game. IMO, the better play isn't to lynch the likely scum before you, but to spend the resources you have (in this case, time and votes) to lynch the scum that's flying under your radar.

[Titus]

Absolutely not. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. Letting go nearly confirmed scum on the off–chance someone else is scum is foolish. There's not really a strong case against anyone other than you. Plus, the odds dramatically increase that we mislynch if we go outside Varsoon/Saki.

I am off for the night.

[Varsoon]

See, this is why you're having trouble following me, and, ergo, reading me as scum.
I don't play by the same rules.

[oriole]

Titus - How many roleblockers do you believe we have? Your 99% argument includes the possibility that there are zero roleblockers.

[Titus]

No. My logic, not how you play, is dictating that.

For instance, your refusal to push a Saki lynch tells me that is a huge risk for you. I don't see you taking a risky option when a risk free one gers the same result. Risk needs a reason. That tells me lynching Saki must be risky for you. Why?

You still haven't explained anything about your meta contradictions or anything in my post. Instead, you chalk it up to playstyle.

@Oriole, My 99% argument relates to at least one of them lying. Nothing says they both cannot be.

[CherryDrPepper]

DP here

Having issues with varsoon's big post in 806

I for the recvord do buy his "I didnt get the set up" shtick cause I too didnt understand it at first
Still, is counter claiming really the optimal play Day 1. Even if you do try to get someone as scum lynched, you ensure a night kill if no Doctors exist, thus depleting us of one town PR. Not to mention, if you thought he was scum, you could have just roleblocked him if you really were the roleblocker.

Your whole "Im posting a lot so it must mean Im town" is bad. First, big posts do not always equate good post or scum hunting posts for that matter. Also many of your posts have been self defense.

You claim to not like out of game factors yet divulge in self meta. This barely makes enough sense. And your analysis of level plays is pure WIFOM and involves a lot of meta understanding from the player you are analyzing. In other words, dont claim your big posts are scumhunting posts

However, I dont think its beneficial for this town to lynch a claimed PR. And I think CounterClaiming in itself indicated he was afraid of Saki possibly fakeclaiming

This is just me but I think TunnelVision slipped or at least made a bad call.

If you are right about Saki, and honestly a town role blocker...

we have two outted power roles on D1 for no apparent gain to the town. You'll likely both be dead in short order. I have to believe we would be in a better situation if you hadn't claimed. Does that make sense at level 3 sir? If you're town and Saki is town, you severely gimped the town by claiming RB instead of checking the game setup first.

My money is on scum

, because I do respect and value your intelligence. And the majority of my case stands, despite your meta/levels/snark/arrogance.

-1-

First bolded indicates the phrase "If you were right", the next claims "my money is on scum". The problem here is that the if you were right part indicates that he doesnt think Varsoon is scum because scum dont need to be right about claims, theyre out for mislynches. Anyway, I think TV got more active around the time an easy wagon on Varsoon formed and while I havent been as active and I also thought Varsoon could be scum, I think Tunnel is someone we should look at

VOTE: TunnelVision


BTW Saki and Titus, bot of your "every single lurker is a scum read" is bad. Town lurks as well, it seems like a convenient way to label people as scum. Im inclined to disagree. People who are in major wagons deserve equal treatment with lurkers. Why? Because there are some scum strategies in bandwagons: a) join a convenien c) votet wagon and hope no one notices. b) join a counterwagon c) vote a non wagon so as not to be accused of being opportunistic d) lurk and sit back and watch.

Anyway Pasche, in the set up with multiple PRs, isnt it

easier

for scum to fakeclaim?

I like oriole's analysis of Tunnel's posts. I agree with a lot and it back up my "Tunnel is jumping an easy wagon on a PR". It relies on lots of things that DONT make people scum. Thats a sign of a bad case. I have no idea why Sakura saw it as a town post.

Titus: Emotion is a playstyle and not a scum tell. Im surprised that you say this when you yourself have been accused of this earlier in one of your games on site. Your case is also composed of non scum tells. I believe his reread on Saki being town was because people said that the set up included multipple town PRs. His read changes are pretty shifty but Im inclined to think that people are kinda looking for excuses to lynch a claimed PR on DAY 1

This game is making my headache, a lot of useless shit has been posted

[Titus]

@Oriole, I rather believe Saki right now but there is a chance of scum v scum. I'd want to watch both very closely.

@Dr. Pepper, Frequent contractions about meta are not emotion. Wierd voting patterns are not emotion. Having a complex plan that sweeps a lot under the rug is not emotion. There's only one part that relates to emotion. Varsoon's behavior makes no sense, the odds are in our favor that one of the two is scum and we're looking for reasons to lynch a PR? No I just don't find a reason not to lynch Varsoon.

Also, every single lurker was NOT a scum read. Way to misrep. Dyslexicon and Tunnel were town reads.

[Titus]

Flench also worked his way to a null read.