Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[Titus]

lurking

I feel obligated to fling shit back at the lurkers and provide a giant wall since everyone loves them so much, but I'm lazy.

Split the difference and put a wall about the lurkers?

What do you think of Paschendale's post not to talk about each other? (Question will not have follow up unless clarification on your thoughts is needed)



@Varsoon, Occam's (spelling off) Razor might be a better way to explain what's going on. It seems like everytime someone says something that might be scummy, your response is to call them scum and/or say it's a higher level of wifom. This is play more consistent with newbtown which you are not. Can you boil this levels thing into something relatively simple?

Also, what do you have to say about the 1% chance that both you and Saki could be roleblockers? Given there's no certainty in mafua, why not find the scum by lynching between the two of you. This isn't a scenario where there's even a 25 percent chance of two prs which would change the play dramatically.

[Paschendale]

Tunnel's post is completely unconvincing. It's basically just saying that "town would phrase things the same way I would, so if you don't you must be scum." And all of that is to disguise the fact that his argument is actually just a PoE because he gives an unsubstantiated townread to Saki. But no, no evidence for Saki as town, just complaining that Varsoon is friendly and not angry enough. Nonsense.

I don't like Cherry's reaction, either. What the hell was town about Tunnel's crap post? It was a shoddy argument and it was deceptive as to its true purpose.

Vars, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try to build a wacky smokescreen. Tricks like that don't usually catch anyone. Different people will react differently. You say you want someone to build a case on you based on your tone? Why? That doesn't mean they're town or scum. That just means they find your actions unsettling. Stop trying to be "high level" and just contribute. Your ice is thinning.

All of this level stuff looks like Vars twisting and trying to find escape hatches so he doesn't have to commit to his arguments. He's losing town points from me. However, I believe his counterclaim more than Saki's original claim.

Titus, what I asked for has been achieved. You all stopped yelling at each other and the thread can talk about some other things. It's doing that now. Other players are poking their heads up.

[CherryDrPepper]

Well sorry Pasch, I don't catch the same things you do, so his post was very convincing for me

-Sakura Hana

[Does Bo Know]

Votecount 1.32

[L-3] Varsoon - jmo16mla, Dyslexicon, Titus, TunnelVision
[L-4] Vote Me - oriole, Paschendale, Flench
[L-5] Titus - Saki, CherryDrPepper
[L-5] jmo16mla - StubbsKVM, Varsoon

Not Voting: Vote Me, Glass

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is Friday, August 2nd, 2013 at 7:30 PM CST ((expired on 2013-08-02 19:30:00)).

---

StubbsKVM is V/LA until July 22nd.

[Titus]

@Paschendale, I don't see anything crap with Tunnel's post at all. Point 1 should have been the focus over point 9, but highlighting contradictions is usually a scum indicator if there is no reason for the switch, but language based tells are lower forms of evidence and should be relied on if no other evidence exists.. Looking at a player's tone can be very indicative of their alignment (ex looking for escape hatches). That's the very argument Tunnel is making in his post to me.

Also, why is Saki less believable than Paschendale regarding the claims?

@Tunnel, Please elaborate on Point 1.

[Titus]

*Why is Saki less believable than Varsoon?

[TunnelVision]

Tunnel's post is completely unconvincing. It's basically just saying that "town would phrase things the same way I would, so if you don't you must be scum." And all of that is to disguise the fact that his argument is actually just a PoE because he gives an unsubstantiated townread to Saki. But no, no evidence for Saki as town, just complaining that Varsoon is friendly and not angry enough. Nonsense.

Did you read the same post I wrote? Maybe you should read it again. Your post above shows that either I didn't communicate my observations clearly, or you just think I'm scum and therefore aren't giving them their due consideration.

Is not based on a PoE. There's several slips/tells/etc in Varsoons play that I've watched, noted, and highlighted. Saki's claim (and my town read) is just an add on, not a foundation of the case. There's nothing to disguise, no hidden agenda. I think the guy is scum and I shared why. You don't have to agree but don't restate my position incorrectly, dumb it down to the level you did, and call it nonsense.

[Titus]

Tunnel you missed my request to elaborate on the contradictions that Varsoon made.

[Saki]

lurking

I feel obligated to fling shit back at the lurkers and provide a giant wall since everyone loves them so much, but I'm lazy.

Split the difference and put a wall about the lurkers?

What do you think of Paschendale's post not to talk about each other? (Question will not have follow up unless clarification on your thoughts is needed)

Wall to come, to come.

"Shut the fuck up" - subtle, very subtle.

Also, why is Saki less believable than Paschendale regarding the claims?

Pasche said the opposite before, sure it's not a typo
?

Titus, what I asked for has been achieved. You all stopped yelling at each other and the thread can talk about some other things. It's doing that now. Other players are poking their heads up.

Now that Varsoon and I stopped playing chicken the lurkers are out to get us 'cause the lynch didn't happen and they want it to happen between Varsoon and me.
(Obviously none of them have put much effort into reading Varsoon or me or Titus based on all of the posts we posted.)
and that's why every single lurker is scumread.
[strongest]TunnelVision JMO VoteMe Glass Stubbs Dyx[weakest] scumread

[Titus]

The confusion regarding the middle part was due to a typo. That should have read "Why is Saki less believable than Varsoon?" I tried to clarify that in 830. Pasch said "However, I believe his counterclaim more than Saki's original claim." and I want to know why.

I'm looking forward to your wall Saki. That disagrees with my interpretation of the lurkers. I wouldn't even consider TunnelVision a lurker.

[oriole]

I'm looking forward to your wall Saki. That disagrees with my interpretation of the lurkers. I wouldn't even consider TunnelVision a lurker.

What is your interpretation of the lurkers?

[Saki]

The confusion regarding the middle part was due to a typo. That should have read "Why is Saki less believable than Varsoon?" I tried to clarify that in 830. Pasch said "However, I believe his counterclaim more than Saki's original claim." and I want to know why.

I'm looking forward to your wall Saki. That disagrees with my interpretation of the lurkers. I wouldn't even consider TunnelVision a lurker.

asking this again
Wasn't Paschendale saying Varsoon was less believable than my claim a few pages ago? I thought he did.

Why would you not consider TunnelVision a lurker?

[Titus]

I'm looking forward to your wall Saki. That disagrees with my interpretation of the lurkers. I wouldn't even consider TunnelVision a lurker.

What is your interpretation of the lurkers?

Scummiest

Stubbs - Prod Dodges, Promises Content Never Provides it
VoteMe - Says he'll never vote Varsoon and leaves
JMO - His votes and FoSes don't seem to have a solid basis
Glass - He seems to have logical thought behind his posts, but something just doesn't feel 100% right about him.
Tunnel (if you count him as a lurker)
Dyx (technically lurker but his posts are all logically sound and full of content)

[Saki]

The wall's gonna be a bit outdated, mk.
Going to sleep for tonight.

[oriole]

I don't see where Stubbs promised content; where is that?

[Titus]

The confusion regarding the middle part was due to a typo. That should have read "Why is Saki less believable than Varsoon?" I tried to clarify that in 830. Pasch said "However, I believe his counterclaim more than Saki's original claim." and I want to know why.

I'm looking forward to your wall Saki. That disagrees with my interpretation of the lurkers. I wouldn't even consider TunnelVision a lurker.

asking this again
Wasn't Paschendale saying Varsoon was less believable than my claim a few pages ago? I thought he did.

Why would you not consider TunnelVision a lurker?

Maybe he did. Perhaps Pasch is confused. I don't know.

TunnelVision has posted daily and all of his posts further scumhunting in some form or another. He's posting strong theories with little "escape hatches". He seemed to be aware and reaching similar conclusions as me. I could see the point of him scum sheeping me (highly improbable though), but he's not lurking.

[Titus]

I don't see where Stubbs promised content; where is that?

I had my games wrong. Change Stubbs with JMO on my scum list. He's promised content in another game I play with him. I should probably go through and do a wall myself to see if any of my other lines are based on faulty memory.

Still, I don't like the lack of questions/investigation from Stubbs in his ISO. It's frequently summary from him.

[Paschendale]

@Paschendale, I don't see anything crap with Tunnel's post at all. Point 1 should have been the focus over point 9, but highlighting contradictions is usually a scum indicator if there is no reason for the switch

What a shame that Tunnel neglected to provide any examples.

but language based tells are lower forms of evidence and should be relied on if no other evidence exists.. Looking at a player's tone can be very indicative of their alignment (ex looking for escape hatches). That's the very argument Tunnel is making in his post to me.

And they're both crap. That someone has a different tone than you'd expect is a tell of exactly nothing. That their tone is uncooperative or obscures information is decent, but that's not what's happening here. Varsoon is just kind of goofy. He also likes to act clever. Sometimes it helps. Sometimes it doesn't. This is somewhere in between.

*Why is Saki less believable than Varsoon?

Because Saki put himself in a position to claim, as if eager to do so. There is no town motivation for that. Meanwhile, Varsoon is smart enough to know that fake claiming is dangerous in this setup. I don't really believe him when he says that he doesn't understand the setup, but that's another one of his attempts at clever ploys. It is certainly possible that they're both telling the truth, but fake counterclaiming is high risk / low reward move. Note that I'm not ruling out that they're both town or both scum, though the latter is very unlikely.

Varsoon, I would really prefer if you would just play this one straight. You do a better job when you do.

Did you read the same post I wrote? Maybe you should read it again. Your post above shows that either I didn't communicate my observations clearly, or you just think I'm scum and therefore aren't giving them their due consideration.

Is not based on a PoE. There's several slips/tells/etc in Varsoons play that I've watched, noted, and highlighted. Saki's claim (and my town read) is just an add on, not a foundation of the case. There's nothing to disguise, no hidden agenda. I think the guy is scum and I shared why. You don't have to agree but don't restate my position incorrectly, dumb it down to the level you did, and call it nonsense.

Then make a better case. Tone is a lousy case. Tells and slips are, honestly, a lousy case. They're quite often wrong. Just about everything that has been claimed to be a tell is later shown not to be. And it's PoE because you, as others have, are setting it up that either Saki is town or Varsoon is town, and so a town lean on one means a scum lean on the other. Do them independently, and maybe you won't have to rely on tone and "slips".

Now that Varsoon and I stopped playing chicken the lurkers are out to get us 'cause the lynch didn't happen and they want it to happen between Varsoon and me.
(Obviously none of them have put much effort into reading Varsoon or me or Titus based on all of the posts we posted.)
and that's why every single lurker is scumread.
[strongest]TunnelVision JMO VoteMe Glass Stubbs Dyx[weakest] scumread

I noticed that. I don't really expect them to come out swinging for each other. But we're hardly going to lynch anyone until we've a) gotten them all to show up and weigh in on you guys, and b) put them through the ringer and make arguments on some of them, too. Anything else would be intentionally ignoring half the lynch pool on day one, which would be incredibly stupid.

Wasn't Paschendale saying Varsoon was less believable than my claim a few pages ago? I thought he did.

I did. Then I thought about it some more and changed my mind. At the moment, though, I believe both of them. Or rather, I don't disbelieve either enough to vote for either of you.

I want to hear more from Glass, Stubbs, Dyslex, Jmo, and Vote Me.

[Varsoon]

@Pasche: Right on. I guess I feel a bit nervous to play games straight since getting lynched then is painful. I've had some really, really unfortunate mislynches when I've played straight, then I played straight a bit as scum (and it worked, sadly) so there's a subconcious nagging that playing a game straight doesn't work when I'm town but it does when I'm scum. Regardless, I do think that's what I should do here. All of my play so far has collapsed on itself like a house of cards, and while it was amusing at the time, it's creating way too much distraction/wifom for town (and I don't know how much for scum, which was the intent).

@DBK: Eeep, sorry. I just can't stand when players aren't very active in games they /in'd to. Like I said, the average post number is around 60. People at less than 30 should really step it up.

@Oriole: I see it as JMO writing off Titus/buddying him to get some sort of reaction and Titus not being receptive to it. Titus probably also doesn't want to be called noobtown, regardless. Ultimately, the interactions paint JMO as scummy and Titus as less-so, or at least, not willing to participate in whatever JMO has cooking up.

I want to hear more from Glass, Stubbs, Dyslex, Jmo, and Vote Me.

THIS.

Also, some questions for the people who are here:
@Pasche: While you bring up a good point about Tunnel's case on me, do you feel that this makes Tunnel more scum because he's so passionately pushing my lynch or that he's just town with points that you see not being effective?
@Saki: Other than the wall you're putting up, can you tell me how you feel about the current situation between us? As in, do you feel like my counter-claim is true, and, furthermore, do you think that I'm scum/town?
@Titus: Do you feel that you should continue to focus on Saki and I, or that you should broaden your perspective and catch related information that might condemn players outside of 2/13 of the game?
@Oriole: How do you feel about Tunnel's case on me, about Pasche's dismantling of the case, and about my play until this point?
@Everyone: How should we encourage/get the lurkers/inactive players to be more active?

[Varsoon]

Messed up my bold tags.
I'm a rube, after all.

Fixed.
~DBK

[Titus]

@Varsoon, your statement is loaded, implying that I'm not even investigating anyone else. I focus wherever I see bad logic take me and search for whatever the truth may be. I've commented on what I see from the other players. I feel, however, that it is utter foolishness to not push a lynch between the two of you given the high likelihood that one of the two of you is indeed scum. Of course I investigate others, but there just won't be a stronger position for a lynch on day 1 between you and Saki.

As for getting the lurkers out, let's try to keep our posts concise with a lot of information in each post. Taking the same content and spanning it over many posts can make people see "5 pages again really" when that content could be two to three pages. I know I'm far from perfect (realizing typos after posting) but that would be great if we could keep the double posting to a minimum.

My wall will come later today/early tomorrow.

@Paschendale, would you like me to put up my case on Varsoon with my lurker wall?

[Varsoon]

@Titus: Sorry that you read it as such. Lots of your effort in D1 so far has focused on reading between Saki and I. You've provided some info on other players, but what I'm getting at is whether or not others will be you focus for the rest of the day or if you can't see the day ending without a lynch between Saki and I. Your answer gets to this, so I'm satisfied with it.

I'll try to keep my walls of posts to a minimum, but I can't promise anything.

How many scum are there in this setup? I assumed 3, since that's how many 13 player games typically have, but I could be wrong--as I already have been about the setup so far.

[Paschendale]

@Pasche: Right on. I guess I feel a bit nervous to play games straight since getting lynched then is painful. I've had some really, really unfortunate mislynches when I've played straight, then I played straight a bit as scum (and it worked, sadly) so there's a subconcious nagging that playing a game straight doesn't work when I'm town but it does when I'm scum. Regardless, I do think that's what I should do here. All of my play so far has collapsed on itself like a house of cards, and while it was amusing at the time, it's creating way too much distraction/wifom for town (and I don't know how much for scum, which was the intent).

So play it straight from now on. I think you will have a much easier time. You will also get lynched sometimes and rip your hair out. See my lynch in House of Cards (which is over and not ongoing) for an example.

@Pasche: While you bring up a good point about Tunnel's case on me, do you feel that this makes Tunnel more scum because he's so passionately pushing my lynch or that he's just town with points that you see not being effective?

I'm not sure yet.

@Everyone: How should we encourage/get the lurkers/inactive players to be more active?

Lynch the most useless and vig the next most useless if we have a vig. Then tomorrow, hopefully we'll have a dead scum or two, or the lurkers will start playing to their win condition. There is pretty much no way to deal with a game where townies decide to just lurk. They ruin the game for their team every time.

[Paschendale]

@Paschendale, would you like me to put up my case on Varsoon with my lurker wall?

Not really up to me, but you should probably include your case on Varsoon if you want anyone to vote for him.

Seriously, no one needs to ask my permission or approval for anything. I have one vote, and I'll probably get night killed.

[Varsoon]

@Pasche: I think we can all agree that some of our lurkers are less pro-town/more scummy than others. This is why I have a vote on JMO, because I feel he's the worst offender. Does your vote on Vote Me reflect your sentiments in 847?