In post 791, Varsoon wrote:
Onto the second point. I've been actively playing a buddying/VI role hoping that someone would try to build a case on me due to those approaches. Buddying isn't scummy by nature--if anything, town wants some solidarity as well. In fact, a strong town-bloc is hard for scum to beat. Furthermore, scum-buddying backfires quite hard when scum is lynched. Ergo, I don't find buddying to be scummy, but I am aware that others might try to exploit it as so. There's been several times in the game that I've openly applauded town efforts from other players and done things to earn 'town points'. To players who play on the second-level-of-perception, this is scummy, since they see scum as people trying to curry town favor. However, I'm playing on a third-level, which is Town seeming scummy to second-level players in an attempt to find scum who are second-level who would exploit that.
Large problem with this. Even if your play is "on a higher level" than TV's (and
damn,
is that an arrogant statement), how do you differentiate second-level scum from second-level town, considering you said that all players who play on this second level of perception would find it scummy?
Oriole and Oreo, they look similar. I'll probably respond to both.
@Oriole: Don't think of it as a hierarchy. Furthermore, each level accounts for a certain perception of events/play. Think of it like a method of decoding WIFOM.
I'll discuss it in further length some other time, right now it's a distraction (mainly put there to see if anyone ((like scum-TV)) would exploit it as such) that doesn't do anything for anyone if it's speculated on.
48 hours from now, I want him to either offer some solid reads, or be dead. Tunnel and Glass are in the same boat. I want more from Jmo and Stubbs, too.
I feel okay about Dyslexicon.
Vote: VoteMe
Lurkers/afk people give no information, they must perish.
Varsoon I have to say that a couple of Tunnels points are decent so you should feel compelled to refute them.
Ah, hell, why not. The thread is moving at a snail's pace anyway.
1) Already admitting to VI play from the onset of the game. Had I not counter-claimed, I would be an unlikely NK target. Now my VI play is solely for WIFOM.
2) I honestly do not know how this setup works. I know it's semi-open, which I think means there's only certain setups possible. My counter-claim was made on the basis that I've never seen a 13-player game with two of the same role in Town.
3) Or I just interpreted you wrong. /shrug. From what I read, you wanted me to explain my gambit, but explaining my gambit loops back to me being more succeptable to NKs and my earlier play being for naught. See 1. Also, you coming into the thread hot and willing to throw fire on people's backs rather than provide analysis of the entire game/playerbase was what I was commenting on in my first line.
4) Surprise, so do I. Please read the thread. If Saki's town, it doesn't make me scum, either. This is a relational-tell based on a read that you're working on, and it's not good evidence in any game.
5) I always have a high post count/lots of noise. If you think that I haven't done anything to hunt scum, then I guess my efforts and pressure are too subtle (not really) for you to pick up? As for having a means out of things, that's another quip on my VI/obvscum play. If you notice, I add one of these after each small bit of pressure I make. A sort of 'but maybe not' addendum.
6) Already talked about buddying being null and a part of my play earlier. Non-game content is null as well. This point feels like it's grasping for straws. If you think people can't be conversational and pally with folks they've been in games with before, I'd be terrified to see you in a veteran game like Xenoblade.
7) I felt pressured into a weird place when Titus not-so-subtly implied that I was a Mason with Vote-me. I should have just ignored him, but, really, it's whatever. Yeah, that was a shitty play on my part.
8) My town motivation for CC'ing RB is because I wasn't aware the setup could have two RBs in it for town. Furthermore, I [AM IN A GAME I CANT TALK ABOUT SO I WONT] have seen VTs claim PRs on D1, which is why I pulled back even harder. My current standing is that Saki is either a VT or is actually a town RB like I am.
9) Already refuted this, and my points on 1 and 2 should further do so.
10) If you're aware of my history on this site, you'd know that I pull more shenanigans than any noob. Try again.
11) The thing that really threw you is another hint I dropped for people around third level. I openly say that being nuts is my town-meta. I then play nuts. People on the second level would understand this is my town meta, but third-level thinking would say that this is an artificial approach. If I was aware of my zany, absurd play being my town-meta, why, as scum, would I preface it with the post about Nacho's analysis of my meta? So that third-level scum players trying to exploit it would be caught by that snare, but, more than that, to laugh forever at people who rely on meta to make cases.
12) No, not really. Saki is hard-town to me right now, with very little chance of changing. I won't be putting a vote on Saki for the rest of this game. Again, good try.
13) It's not nearly fear-mongering as much as it is being cautious. If Saki is really TRB, then that makes us both TRB, which is a terrible thing for us both to be since we've claimed it. Shitty second level players will lynch one, then the other, which would cost two TRBs. If Saki is VT, a similar scenario can unfold, but my lynch is less likely. Regardless, Saki isn't the lynch for today.
There, now if you want to call my refutations crap, or give me any more shit, be my guest. Your case on me denies me agency and intelligence, and that's pretty damn insulting.
@Varsoon, so which is it? Is Saki a VT or his is a townroleblocker in your opinion?
Also, please define second level versus third level thinking in terms of how you're using them (i.e. not an answer like the staircase). Are you referring to game theory?
@Titus: Given Saki's noob!town existence, I'm more inclined to say Town RB. Otherwise, I'd be leaning VT. When he claimed, I thought for sure that it was a scum-claiming-town-PR, mostly so that town protective roles would waste time protecting him, etc etc. I wasn't aware Saki was a newer player, and would not likely be a VT claiming a PR/scum doing that either. To me, it reads a lot like a misinformed/noobtown PR claim that's truthful--this means it's either fourth-level play or first-level play. I'm gonna say first.
It's personal game theory that helps me a lot with WIFOM cases and inspection of play.
Second-level thinking is thinking/posting methods that go against direct-play. For instance, scum playing town, or a town PR acting like they're not a town PR.
Third-level play is usually someone faking second level play. So, town acting scummy in order to get expose scum who make cases on them. It's an approach that manipulates second-level play.
So, like the example I gave about determining if Saki was making a first-level or fourth-level play;
A first-level play is TRB Saki claiming TRB because that's what his role is. Saki is X and is acting like X.
A second-level play would be VT Saki claiming TRB. Saki is Y and is acting like X.
A third-level play would be scum-Saki claiming TRB with the fall-back/crumb of being a VT claiming TRB. Saki is Z and is acting like Y acting like X.
A fourth-level play would be scum-Saki, acting like noobtown, claiming TRB. Saki is Z, but is acting like A and B (Noob and Town), acting like X.
My case is based on your actions, motivation, content, and some psychology. Neither of which denies or contradicts your competence or intelligence. You've inferred that on your own. In reality, I fear I gave you more credit than I should have:
I expected that a competent and intelligent player such as yourself would've read the intro posts from the mod, and looked at the game setup options. Especially somebody with a power role. Especially if you were considering a counter claim. I also expected that a smart and savvy player like you wouldn't have jeopardized his very important role on D1 for no real gain to the town. Because, let's look at where we are:
If you are right about Saki, and honestly a town role blocker... we have two outted power roles on D1 for no apparent gain to the town. You'll likely both be dead in short order. I have to believe we would be in a better situation if you hadn't claimed. Does that make sense at level 3 sir? If you're town and Saki is town, you severely gimped the town by claiming RB instead of checking the game setup first.
So which is it? Did I give you too much credit and you're actually a rube townie that couldn't be bothered to think through his moves and research the game setup before claiming?
Or did I give you the right amount of credit and you're scum making a very calculated and potentially high yielding maneuver?
My money is on scum, because I do respect and value your intelligence. And the majority of my case stands, despite your meta/levels/snark/arrogance.
@TV: I didn't look at any of the setup because it's pointless to do so in most cases. Since our setup is randomizes, Setup speculations amounts to WIFOM. I'd still likely counter-claim even if I had known there could be a possible two RB.
Assuming scum isn't Level-one, we'll most likely live. Level one scum would kill us, but higher level scum would keep us alive, since it jeopardizes town and creates lots of WIFOM. If scum kills us both, then they're dipping down two telegraphed NKs that can easily be protect role'd/blocked--and they're not actively NK'ing out of a now-smaller pool of people who may be other PRs. So, honestly, it does make sense at level 3, assuming our scum are playing on a higher level, which, at the very least, they're 2.
I honestly have no clue how the semi-open setup works, what the letters mean when people write things like TTTBBBX or what significance C9++ has.
If that makes me stupid, well, eh, it was a part of my VI gambit to come into the game knowing nothing. I couldn't -fake- knowing nothing, so I didn't do any research.
Sorry for being a bit arrogant. I felt like you were being insulting when you dropped points like 2, 6, and 11 on me in Post 793. /shrug.
It's cool, and you parsing things out and play between 793 and 812 is actually really good pressure on me.
In post 813, Varsoon wrote:@TV: I didn't look at any of the setup because it's pointless to do so in most cases.
If that makes me stupid, well, eh, it was a part of my VI gambit to come into the game knowing nothing. I couldn't -fake- knowing nothing, so I didn't do any research.
First you say you didn't look at the setup because you don't think it's important. Then you say you intentionally didn't look at the setup so you could play VI easier.
It's like everything mafia you do you then just say it's because you were playing VI, yet you told us you were playing VI right after someone started pressuring you, so why even play VI if you are going to tell us that the instant we think you are acting like mafia?
A bit of both, but mostly third. Any fourth-level stuff I'm doing is to call attention to third-level stuff I'm doing in a hope that I can still continue to run a WIFOM gambit on scum.
Anyone who's in the game and doesn't post regularly, but is still posting from time to time.
For the most part, it feels like people are inactive in this game, which is a problem, since active-lurking is so easy to pull off and so hard to condemn without it seeming like a policy lynch.
I said it probably only makes sense to me. Engaging me on it is pretty useless as far as this current game goes. We should actually focus on the game, rather than the absurd game-theory that I'm approaching it with.
@Titus:
The average player in this game has about 57 posts. There's a big hike in posts from Cherry (at 75) and me (120) and an even bigger one between you (137) and Saki (200).
Here are the people who have no business having really low post-counts:
Vote Me -(5)- Vote me had a V/LA but said he'd catch up on Wednesday. It's now Saturday. He either needs to replace out or start posting some content.
Dyslexicon -(6)- Comes in, posts some things, leaves. Doesn't V/LA to back up large absences. Quotes posts throughout the game, which shows he follows the thread.
Tunnel Vision -(20)- Is really inactive despite being a hydra. Feels like the case on me was pulled out to earn townpoints despite lurking fairly hard. Given how many points against me analyze my activity in the whole game, it's arguable.
Glass -(29)- Says life has been busy, but hasn't called a V/LA. Interaction has been sketchy at times, but I'm leaning Glass as town. Still, needs to actually get his head in the game.
JMO -(38)- Definitely active-lurking. Peeks his head in from time to time to vote on wagons and never give reasons why. My highest scum candidate next to Titus. In fact, most of us have him as scum, which makes it really awkward when the only person voting him is Stubbs.
Come on, guys. The fucking mod has 59 posts. He's the mod. He's not even actively responding to anything but questions directed to him, and posting a vote-count every page or so. If you don't have more posts than
the fucking mod
then your posts had better have some damn good content.
Hey, Varsoon, please calm down. I have way more posts than your average MS mod would have,
and
this game is heavily active compared to others. I'm saying this because I don't want to be part of a discussion of activity when truthfully, this situation where I have so many posts isn't very common on MS.
@Varsoon: You have Titus and Jmo as your highest scum candidates, if I'm reading 821 correctly. What do you make of their interactions (particularly, jmo defending Titus calling him newbtown earlier, and Titus indicating discomfort at it)?
Oriole and Oreo, they look similar. I'll probably respond to both.
