Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[Does Bo Know]

Votecount 1.11

[L-3] Saki - Flench, Paschendale, CherryDrPepper, Varsoon
[L-4] CherryDrPepper - Dyslexicon, oriole, Saki
[L-5] jmo16mla - Glass, StubbsKVM
[L-6] Glass - jmo16mla
[L-6] Flench - Titus

Not Voting: Vote Me, TunnelVision

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is Friday, August 2nd, 2013 at 7:30 PM CST ((expired on 2013-08-02 19:30:00)).

---

Dyslexicon has been prodded.
Vote Me has been prodded.

[Saki]

Dyslexicon has been prodded.
Vote Me has been prodded.

Thanks

[oriole]

Catching up.

[Saki]

@Stubbs
I take it that you're going to go after JMO today?

[oriole]

Seriously, Saki's done nothing since I voted Saki other than break VLA to bitch about it and put fire on my back.

Really? You voted Saki in 180. Posts 210, 215, 216, 218, 236 all seem to be mainly going after people who aren't you, and Saki's mainly going after Cherry.

Totally ignoring convincing us wasn't the point. Yet, your vote should be on who the scummiest is. I find it odd that you are pushing a lynch on someone who appears to be wanting to draw attention to himself. Varsoon has pulled a lot of "OMG obv scum" moves right off the bat. Why? This is either ridiculously poor scum play or town trying to draw attention. I think I know why Varsoon is doing that. If I'm right, it might backfire... hard, because the play is too obvious.

I don't like your focus on convincing us. Your focus should be on finding the truth, which means availing yourself of the possibility that you are indeed wrong. You also demonstrate a sense of paranoia that indicates not agreeing with you = ignoring you. That's hardly the case.

Why does this exact same argument not apply to Saki? He's been attracting just as much attention as Varsoon.

Then why not include a post that says, haven't read, will post later? A prod dodge here suggests that you're just trying to lurk under the radar undetected. If you're not "in the position to read", then why not say you're on V/LA?

I think you're over-reading this a bit. I don't think prod-dodges are scummy.

I find it odd that you are pushing a lynch on someone who appears to be wanting to draw attention to himself.

Hey guys isn't that what my wagon is all about?

I'm playing like a certain someone. Now that I try to lynch that certain someone people start 'throwing shit' back at me. Especially another certain someone on my wagon.

Hypocrisy is a scum-tell, no? That makes for everyone on my wagon to be slightly scummy yet you stood out because you're pushing me so zealously. (You're okay with lynching me but not Varsoon?)

Besides I already made it clear that my play is focused on reaction-fishing.

I thought the readslist argument was over, yet you bring it up again. I don't like those since they mostly do little else than parroting and seem like a good way for scum to look like they are scumhunting. Yes they do bring much to scumhunting but at this point? With all those days 'till deadline and only 10 pages? No. I don't think so. Hence my scumread of it.

Why would scum have no need to form a readslist? It's a

great

way to save face and also to pursure mislynches. By the way your readslist seemed more forced than genuine.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CherryDrPepper

The whole Varsoon lynch thing was a fluke to draw you out. I'm almost certain that you're scum now.

You say that large reads-lists are great ways to parrot everyone and look like they're scumhunting, but that's not what Cherry was doing, right? You said later that Cherry wasn't parroting at all.

Thanks for updating your VLA banner, Saki. :3

Solid exchange between Saki and Cherry, too. Shifts them both a little more town for me.

But, yeah, what Cherry said. Please give like a sentence to explain your reads, it'll help gauge them better and give us some trajectory when they shift about.

So what is your current read on Saki, then? Still scum?

[Saki]

This may seem contradictory but

What I don't really like about that readslist was that every single one of your reads was different to what the town was generally saying before it. I interpreted that as you trying hard to make your readslist look genuine and not just parroting.
While it is not bad to have a different opinion to the town if you read

everyone

differently I find that suspicious. (ofc everyone that could be read)

[Titus]

I like how active this thread got while I was out for a few hours. Lots to read and comment on.

@Varsoon, what exactly is the "too town" argument? If you've got any questions, feel free to ask them.

@Stubbs, I actually don't agree on the Saki townread. It should be pretty clear from the context that I've wanted more evidence and words from Saki before being willing to lynch him. I've seen that, and I think he's defenses are much more like scum defenses. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Your other leaning town read is also someone who agrees with Saki being town. Of course, then there is Saki. If Saki is scum, this almost reads like a buddy's defense here.

@Oriole, The difference between Varsoon is Varsoon is seeking the attention. Saki is not. Varsoon has been deliberate in his actions and the behaviors we see as scummy. Saki's behaviors feel more like slips and forcing scum reads. There's a difference between actively drawing attention and suspicion onto yourself and scum play. Varsoon's seems to be the former. Saki's appears to be the latter.

[Saki]

I know you said I was scum in 219, Titus, but how far has your scumread developed?

Enough to take your vote off Flench and vote me?

And I do believe that I said my playstyle revolves around deliberately drawing attention. What makes you think, specifically, that I'm not doing that and that my play is scummy/my scumslips are not deliberate?



I've seen people say my play is similar to Varsoon's but also people say my play is not similar to Varsoon's. If you guys could link certain posts which made you think that that'd be great.

[Titus]

In 219, I hadn't said you were scum but I was starting to suspect that you were. I still think Flench is more likely scum than you, so my vote stays on him but if I'm needed to hammer you I will.

Saki, your behaviors (beyond the town points for guessing your AV) seem to be more reactionary than aggressive. For instance, Varsoon's meta conflicts were put there deliberately. You seem to be more OMGUSing, tunnelling and being wishy washy. For instance, you complain people ignore you but you let jmo go right on ignoring you. You claim your vote was on Varsoon because he was the most scummy but then say you didn't mean it when pressured. Varsoon's scummy behaviors seem to be independent of pressure and done whenever we quick focusing on Varsoon. Varsoon has also not tunnelled and seems to be putting forth much more analysis on players who haven't FoSed him at all.

[oriole]

OK, so here are Pasche's and Cherry's reads lists side by side.

Pasch's current reads

Vote Me: Only a few posts. But they're decent. Why the unvote on Cherry? It doesn't seem like anything triggered that change. Getting better as the game continues.
Jmo: Lots of comments. Minimal conclusions. Unjustified votes. This kind of style is disjointed and hard to follow. Started out wanting to vote him, but giving him a little benefit of the doubt.
Glass: Basically just laying down steaming piles of bullshit. Like the "I already explained why I voted for Titus" bit. The only post where he addresses his vote on Titus at all is only saying that others are misinterpreting him. No actual reason. And then Jmo for... not jumping to answer him. More votes for Glass!
Stubbs: Two posts, but not afraid to vote. I want more, but I like what I've seen so far.
Cherry (Hydra): Unsure. Just enough to look like contribution, but not super useful. Merits a sharp eye.
TunnelV (Hydra: Definitely not enough. Holding back and wtf is with the awful Varsoon vote?
Titus: Meta read on Titus is that his style is a little weird. But he's got an honest vibe. I don't like his vote on Flench, though. I don't see a slip, and even so, slips are pretty weak reasons for a vote. Town, but wrong.
Saki: Tons of votes, no reasons, actually tries to push a policy lynch on page two... and then turns and runs the other way. String him up!
Dyslexicon: Needs more. First impression okay, but not enough to make a decision yet.
Oriole: Decent. On the fence, but I see scumhunting. Looks okay so far.
Flench: I don't see why anyone is confused about Flench's points. Maybe not the most effective scumhunting, but it's a start.
Varsoon: Lots of questions, not so much with conclusions. If there's anything Varsoon is not shy to do, it's tell you what he thinks. Varsoon goes out on a limb like its his job. so why the hesitation here? It's suspicious.

-Town-
Vote Me
Titus

-Leaning Town-
StubbsKVM
Dyslexicon
Oriole
Flench

-Leaning Scum-
Jmo (Moving up from scum, but not up to leaning town yet)
TunnelVision
Cherry
Varsoon (Not leaning very hard, though)

-Scummy Scum McScummerson-
Glass
Saki

Vote remains on Saki.

Also, being confirmed town is really weird. Not having to prove that I'm not lying is a very different experience.

Sakura Hana here, imma go revisiting everyone's ISOs and check for tendencies to form my reads, post links will be given where applicable. Ordered from Towniest to Scummiest

Paschendale

:

Town

, obvious scum, let's lynch him.... just kidding, but he's conf town, need i say more?

Titus

:

Town

, Best gameplay so far, asking questions, pressuring people, finding issues with people's posts, I don't see me voting him ever unless he does something incredibly scummy.

jmo

:

Town

, Also pretty good scumhunting tho in a more aggresive manner, I like his style a lot, Also I don't see me voting this guy ever unless he does something incredibly scummy.

oriole

:

Leaning Town

, Questioning players and good scumhunting, i particularly like his 57 and his 62, but I dislike his vote on Tunnelvision on 133, why did that make you think someone just entering the game would need to vote another player, specially a hydra that hasn't talked with his other head too like i refrained myself from doing early on with Saki until Saki's unvote?.

Varsoon

:

Null

, Dunno really what to think of his posts, doesn't seem to spend much time scumhunting rather answering questions, and then gives a reads with zero nulls/neutrals and just puts people as town or scum, don't see how he has that strong of a townread on all those Town reads and the same could be said about his scum reads, tho I agree with the read on Flench.

Dyslexicon

:

Null

, only 3 posts tho with quite some content, Still don't know what he finds suspicious in me being inactive over the weekend which seems like a weak to reasoning to lay suspicion on someone.

Tunnelvision

:

Null

, Someone without much to go on...

Vote Me

:

Null

, Haven't seen much and the few i've seen isn't enough to consolidate a read on him.

Stubbs

:

Null

, This guy exists?!

Glass

:

Leaning Scum

, This guy is all over the place, his Titus vote looks pretty bad, very short replies, also i haven't seen some reads from him either...

Flench

:

Leaning Scum

, His scumslip even if he explained it, if anyone could explain a scumslip then that'd be too easy wouldn't it? he's been fencesitting on the Saki's vote all game, and been defending his vote on Saki who's on V/LA to begin with, do you plan on doing anything else other than just staying there pointing fingers at Saki or are you gonna try to find the other scum...

Saki

:

Scum

, Most of the read is because of my partner mentioning that he isn't playing to his town meta, the other part is all his jumpyness with votes and unvoting when being called out on it. As if "caught"

Now i'm done catching up, thanks for the patience.

The reads lists seem rather similar to me though, I don't see the whole "every one of your reads is different" thing.

[Vote Me]

Back from V/LA. Going to catch up and such.

[Saki]

Paschendale is conftown. It proves his scumhunting genuine but his scumreads may not always be right.
Paschendale's readslist is also not accurately representative of the town's general opinion.

And also they're not really similar, the only thing that really is similar between the two reads is the read on you, me and Glass (and the conftown+lurkers, that goes without saying)

P-Edit: wb Vote Me

[Titus]

I'm seeing Pasch and Cherry disagreeing on Flench and Stubbs. There are far too many neutrals on the list for my liking though in Cherry's to determine the full extent of their disagreement or agreement. There seems to be enough here for me to believe that Cherry isn't just sheeping the innocent child though.

[Saki]

In 219, I hadn't said you were scum but I was starting to suspect that you were. I still think Flench is more likely scum than you, so my vote stays on him but if I'm needed to hammer you I will.

Saki, your behaviors (beyond the town points for guessing your AV) seem to be more reactionary than aggressive. For instance, Varsoon's meta conflicts were put there deliberately. You seem to be more OMGUSing, tunnelling and being wishy washy. For instance, you complain people ignore you but you let jmo go right on ignoring you. You claim your vote was on Varsoon because he was the most scummy but then say you didn't mean it when pressured. Varsoon's scummy behaviors seem to be independent of pressure and done whenever we quick focusing on Varsoon. Varsoon has also not tunnelled and seems to be putting forth much more analysis on players who haven't FoSed him at all.

Varsoon being scummy without pressure is town, me being scummy with pressure is scum?

I don't like Varsoon but I have and had no intent of lynching him today. At all. I made that clear in previous posts.
This is why I think people don't read my posts. I specifically said I would be reaction fishing soon and I did (voteswapping to Varsoon) and yet people call me out on it.

So you're saying that me pushing for a Cherry lynch so strongly is 'tunneling' and therefore scummy? By not examining other players I'm scummy? By not suspecting JMO for prod dodging I'm scummy?

And the 'town posts for guessing my AV' why do you keep taking that seriously?

P-Edit :: Their reasons are different. I'll follow up on it next post.

[Saki]

"Paschendale" to "CherryDP"
Reasons for you, for example: "Town but wrong" to "Town, never lynch him"
JMO: "I kinda want to lynch this guy" to "Town, never lynch him"
Also Vote Me, Oriole, and TunnelVision. Their opinions differ a lot.

I don't see why you

only

see them disagreeing on Flench and Stubbs.

[Saki]

"Paschendale" to "CherryDP"
Reasons for you, for example: "Town but wrong" to "Town, never lynch him"
JMO: "I kinda want to lynch this guy" to "Town, never lynch him"
Also Vote Me, Oriole, and TunnelVision. Their opinions differ a lot.

I don't see why you

only

see them disagreeing on Flench and Stubbs.

[Titus]

This post is a perfect example of why you are scummy Saki. You are making conflicting points within the same post. You're saying that you want us to listen to you but you also say some of your posts were meant as a joke.

It's not pressure/without pressure totally. It's whether the scummy behavior seems part of an overarching plan. Yours does not seem to be. The whole reaction fishing with Varsoon would have meant more if you had actually kept your vote on Varsoon long enough to gather his reaction. The claim just doesn't pass the smell test to me.

Town points for guessing your AV was one of the more towny things you did if you meant that seriously. I cannot see why you want me to take that as a joke.

When I look at the reads, I'm looking for the most part at the categories Dr. Pepper and Pasch selected. Their conclusions are alarmingly similar and there's a whole lot of nulls. Occasionally their end results do diverge somewhat so I'm not certain Cherry is sheeping Pasch. I think Cherry's thinking for himself at the moment just because the reasons where Cherry agrees with Pasch seem to have a little meat on their bones.

[Saki]

This post is a perfect example of why you are scummy Saki. You are making conflicting points within the same post. You're saying that you want us to listen to you but you also say some of your posts were meant as a joke.

It's not pressure/without pressure totally. It's whether the scummy behavior seems part of an overarching plan. Yours does not seem to be. The whole reaction fishing with Varsoon would have meant more if you had actually kept your vote on Varsoon long enough to gather his reaction. The claim just doesn't pass the smell test to me.

Town points for guessing your AV was one of the more towny things you did if you meant that seriously. I cannot see why you want me to take that as a joke.

When I look at the reads, I'm looking for the most part at the categories Dr. Pepper and Pasch selected. Their conclusions are alarmingly similar and there's a whole lot of nulls. Occasionally their end results do diverge somewhat so I'm not certain Cherry is sheeping Pasch. I think Cherry's thinking for himself at the moment just because the reasons where Cherry agrees with Pasch seem to have a little meat on their bones.

This is also why I think people are ignoring me.

Anything before me going V/LA is a joke. I hope you understand that. I want you to take the 'town points for guessing AV' as a joke because I hold that "Anything before me going V/LA is a joke." It was actually controlled chaos to invoke discussion (and grab attention while I'm at it!) but that's no different from a joke imo.

I don't get how you say there's no 'overarching plan' when I mentioned one in 210.
How many times do I have to say I never had any intention to lynch Varsoon? Sure I don't have him as town.
The only motivation behind my vote on Varsoon was to get Cherry interested. I mentioned that.

How is JMO even in the same category? Pasche has JMO down as scum while DP has a strong townread on him. I don't think their readslists are similar in most aspects.
I also said nothing about Cherry sheeping Pasche. Why bring that up?

[Varsoon]

@Titus: Some people play a hard-boiled town game when they're scum. I tried it a few games back and won with it, but it's obvious if you follow a person long enough. Regardless, I'm always skeptical of people who seem irrefutably town in my mind. It's mostly paranoia, but I also don't want to be duped by scum playing town, if that makes sense. Regardless, your contributions and attention to detail is really amazing, and so I'm glad to be playing with you. A lot of the time, I'll have a question for Saki and when I F5, you've already asked it.
Questions:
How do you feel about our lurkers?
What do you feel is the best way to pressure a player?
What do you typically look for in order to discern alignment?
Do you consider the playerbase as town until proven scum, scum until proven town, or null until proven one or the other?
Regarding Saki, do you think the slot is scum/why so?

@Oriole: Perhaps I should'a qualified. Saki hasn't done anything *significantly pro-town* since the vote he put on me.
And, while I feel a bit more conflicted about it, Saki still feels like the best gamble for a scum-flip for D1 as of page 13.

[Titus]

@Saki,

Again, you seem to want to have your early posts go two ways. 1) Your early posts were a joke. 2) They were an attempt to spark discussion. To me, both of those statements cannot be true. If players treat your statements as jokes, there will be no controlled chaos type discussion.

Post 210 just says to me "Hey, if you find something scummy, it was reaction fishing". Yet, your vote on Varsoon hardly seems like reaction fishing since you unvoted him before he even replied. Voting someone just to get someone else interested? In what? This seems more like you wanted Cherry to respond so you could attack him. There's a slim chance you are really hydra paranoid but it just doesn't make sense.

JMO seems like a null read on Pasch's list despite how much he hates nulls. I brought up my own opinion on what CherryDr.Pepper said regarding his reads because I'm doing my own scumhunting. CherryDr.Pepper and Pasch seem to mention almost the exact same behavior in their reads. Occasionally, they'll intepret the behavior differently but they seem similar enough. I don't think it is a sheep though.


-------------------------

I take the lurkers on a player by player basis. Vote Me, for instance, is the most likely town of the lurkers due to his strong stances before he started lurking due to his V/LA.

The best way to pressure a player is very player specific IMO. I wouldn't pressure you the same way I'd pressure Saki for instance. Almost universally though, the best pressure is one the player doesn't see coming.

I generally look for language based tells, logicial inconsistencies and tunnelling when looking for scum. When looking for town, I look for evidence of aggressive questioning, no fear of being lynched and logical thinking in the actions the players take. Trolls are particularly hard for me to analyze because they don't fit nicely into my boxes.

Supposing I've never played with a player, the person starts as a null. If I respect a player's skill, I generally start them as a little more suspicious. If I feel like the player is not exactly coherent, I'll start them a little more as town. Regardless, I try not to vote a player until they give me a scumtell in one form or the other unless I know I'm standing in the way of a lynch and the town needs information.

"Regarding Saki, do you think 'the slot' is scum/why so?" Rephrase this please.

[Varsoon]

@Titus: I often refer to the players via their slots. That way, I differentiate between their play in this game or their play across games. For instance, is Varsoon scummy? The answer is likely yes. Is his current slot in the game scummy? That's a different matter.
So, here's a more articulated version:
Do you feel as though, in this current game, that Saki is scum? If so, why?

Also, thanks for answering my questions.
It'll be helpful for tracking arguments you make later in the game.

[Titus]

Yes, I do feel Saki is currently scum. He seems to contradict himself very frequently in his posts. Since the start of the game, he seems to have wanted to lynch CherryDr.Pepper but I can't see why. I'm not certain CherryDr.Pepper is town, but I don't get the laser focus. He also seems to not do well under pressure and has an almost why me attitude about his posts. He doesn't seem to be exhibiting tactics that would gain information over the long term, despite his claims to the contrary. Your questions seem to definitely lead the group to more information. Saki also seems to not like it when questions don't narrowly focus around the points he wants to make.

Now, I have some questions for you, most of them are basically the same questions you asked me, but I am curious.

1) About how many games have you played? Have you ever played on other mafia sites?

2) What do you look for when determining alignment?

3) Do you start players off as null/scum or something else?

4) When if ever do you find it appropriate to speculate as to the setup?

5) What do you think of Oriole?

6) What do you think of our lurkers? Do any of them stand out?

7) Do you have a standard method of pressuring players?

[Saki]

I'd really like to hear from Flench and Paschendale. About keeping their votes on me or not.

btw, I will self-vote at L-2 and claim right away

[CherryDrPepper]

btw, I will self-vote at L-2 and claim right away

What in the hell? If you're gonna vote yourself to claim why not just claim without self-voting.

-Sakura Hana

[Varsoon]

@Saki: You could just claim at L-2 instead of putting yourself in quick-hammer territory. The last thing we need is to have a short D1.