Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[Does Bo Know]

Votecount 1.8

[L-3] Saki - Flench, Paschendale, CherryDrPepper, Varsoon
[L-5] jmo16mla - Glass, StubbsKVM
[L-5] CherryDrPepper - Dyslexicon, Saki
[L-6] Glass - jmo16mla
[L-6] TunnelVision - oriole
[L-6] Varsoon - TunnelVision
[L-6] Flench - Titus

Not Voting: Vote Me

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is Friday, August 2nd, 2013 at 7:30 PM CST ((expired on 2013-08-02 19:30:00)).

---

Saki is V/LA until July 17th.
Varsoon is V/LA for a few days (ETA July 17th).

[Flench]

Seems my quotes were messed up in my last post. hopefully it makes sense.

[Titus]

Flench in 223

Why would a mafia dismiss gambits and scum hunting as a joke? Wouldn't he want to cast suspicion on any non-mafia person that he could?

FoSing people for the first legitimate scum hunting would look really bad. Scum care just as much about discrediting legitimate scumhunting as they do getting other suspects. Discrediting scumhunters allows for scum to stay undetected. It's situationally dependent.

Anyway, enough theory. I'm starting to see almost factions occurring. Oriole, where do you stand? Who are your suspects?

[Paschendale]

Everyone who is voting for someone that no one else is voting for, supply some reasons.

[oriole]

Titus, I'll respond to your question (and provide reasons for my solo TV vote) in about 5-6 hours when I'm free and in front of a computer.

[Titus]

Everyone who is voting for someone that no one else is voting for, supply some reasons.

My reasons for voting Flench

1) The Slip in 39

2) Post 199 - Seems pretty clearly written from a scum perspective, insulting his own opinions, saying he probably won't help etc.

3) His general behavior that Paschendale is the only town to clarify things for

4) His backtracking on clarifying who his scum suspects were when Cherry Dr. Pepper asked him to clarify.

5) A generally unhelpful demeanor towards the group and scumhunting in general (ex: prefers to talk theory rather than ask questions).

[Glass]

@Pasch
The reason that I took excerpts from your post was to indicate what part of your post I was responding to, the reason that I took an excerpt from my post was because you missed it the first time, so I figured I would help you out by showing you directly what you had missed. I don't find it particularly difficult to understand, but I will try to make my posts clearer in the future.

--------------------------------------------------------
This means I am swapping to a different topic
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@Varsoon
What is the deal with the Saki read/vote? When he was around you displayed literally no suspicion of him, your only posts about Saki were post 38 in which you said:

@Saki: Looks like Haruko from FLCL, but I know that's not the case. Also, got anything to say about the game-state?

and post 52 where you said:

@Pasche: Heya! Sorry I placed out of the last game we had, but couldn't handle the work-load. Glad to see you as conf-town here. Not sure if I agree with your Saki point, since I've seen plenty of town cull votes for lynches in a similar fashion. Reads as null for me.
Which, you know, I could vote for because I don't like the process, but that's like the pot calling the kettle black. Eh, maybe I'm over-thinking it. It's 6 AM here, so I'll post when I'm more coherent.

In these posts you seem less than inclined to believe that Saki is scum, and your opinion of Saki suddenly changes to scum in post 132 even though Saki has said nothing between post 52 and 132 except "V/LA".

Saki - Scum. (Might be village idiot. Vote hopping like no tomorrow and worse empty votes than JMO. My vote would be here, but I always feel naughty when I vote people on V/LA.)

Also, why did you unvote jmo in the first place?

--------------------------------------------------------

Really want to hear more from Dys/Stubbs/Tunnel/VoteMe/Cherry

[Paschendale]

My reasons for voting Flench

1) The Slip in 39

2) Post 199 - Seems pretty clearly written from a scum perspective, insulting his own opinions, saying he probably won't help etc.

3) His general behavior that Paschendale is the only town to clarify things for

4) His backtracking on clarifying who his scum suspects were when Cherry Dr. Pepper asked him to clarify.

5) A generally unhelpful demeanor towards the group and scumhunting in general (ex: prefers to talk theory rather than ask questions).

1. Most slips aren't really slips. They're just examples of someone phrasing something in a way that you wouldn't.
2. It sounds more frustrated than scum to me.
3. Quite true. I'm only one vote, and no one has to listen to me. Flench, post your thoughts. Don't look to me to lead you.
4. Do you mean in post 76? That's not backtracking. If you mean something else, please say which posts you're referring to.
5. Agreed, Flench's tone has been uncooperative and he should change that. But most of what he's said hasn't been wrong.

These aren't bad reasons, but I think they're wrong.

[CherryDrPepper]

Pray tell what do you wanna hear from us Glass.

-Sakura Hana

[oriole]

OK, let me answer some questions...

Oriole, where do you stand? Who are your suspects?

I'm not a big fan of the Saki wagon. It seemed like a pretty clear joke to me, and I think people took it a little too seriously. The only strange part of Saki's early posts was 49, or the unvote after the vote from Pasche. This actually leads into my next comment, which is about CherryDrPepper and Saki. Cherry votes for Saki in 195, saying that Saki's not following town meta. In 210, Saki claims that Sakura and Dr.Pepper are following their scum meta from that one game, and Cherry jumps on it here:

I find it ironic you want us to dismiss your first game meta while saying that this is how we play as scum when you've only seen us in your first game.

You were timid then. You also didnt vote jump a lot.

IMO, if CherryDP wants to use meta from Saki's first game (which seems kind of iffy to me, because it's the first game), then Saki should be able to use meta from that same game against CherryDP, as long as he can prove it fits.

I can't help but think that there's a scum on Saki's wagon (even if he's scum). My theory is (although I don't have the experience to know if it's correct), that because Pasche (confirmed town) is on it, scum will be on. I'd think the scum would be between Varsoon and CherryDrPepper, and to this end,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: CherryDrPepper

I'd like to see more from Stubbs.

Everyone who is voting for someone that no one else is voting for, supply some reasons.

I was voting for TV because the three posts from that hydra had been:
1. Discussing a few posts/players they didn't like, but not following up with a vote.
2. Elaborating on a comment about a bias in reads in favor of Titus
3. Placing a vote on Varsoon for his whole meta thing.

I'd like to see a bit more, as most of what I've seen has been centered around Varsoon and Titus, with only passing mentions of a few other players.

[TunnelVision]

Unvote

I smell what you're stepping in.

Found out number 2 is V/LA until Monday. Is it poor form for me to just be me until then, or should I hang back and wait to have a consistent platform? It's my first hydra game, so I just don't want to breach any board etiquette on the matter.

-1-

[Saki]

Following up on 210
before that though

I'M A GUY

how is that not clear

Here's a clearer, more coherent argument as to why I think certain people are scummy.

CherryDrPepper

- 216 big ass readslist. why bother! like seriously, why take the time to write one where there's really only a handful of pages to go through for discussion. also, these readslists, as I have come to think, don't really provide much insight into the reasoning behind who's scum/town and seem like a good way to save face / earn towncred by looking like you're scumhunting. I'd rather have people show what they think of other people through their actions/posts.
- pushing me, who's V/LA (who's also set himself up deliberately to look like an easy lynch)

Varsoon

- sudden change of opinion/policy by voting me, as someone pointed out.
- 176 180
conftown sheeping -- townies should be brave enough to go out on a limb to catch scum and wolves.
being conftown doesn't mean that pasche is 100% right.
how i see it is that varsoon knows that pasche is wrong about me and hops on the wagon.

thank you titus for answering my question
@Flench
my question was (now rephrased) "Why do you keep your vote on someone that is V/LA?"

Also can someone please clarify whether or not the heads of a hydra are allowed to talk to each other outside of the game thread?
If yes then I'd be much more serious about the 'lynch all hydras' business.

[Paschendale]

Did Saki really just say that being forthcoming with reads and supporting them, and not limiting those reads to popular wagons... is a scumtell?

Weirdly though, the argument about Varsoon is slightly compelling, but only because I've played with and butted heads with Varsoon before. I wouldn't expect him to sheep anyone. But agreement is not sheeping. Worth keeping an eye on. Hardly proof of Saki or Varsoon's alignment.

[Saki]

Did Saki really just say that being forthcoming with reads and supporting them, and not limiting those reads to popular wagons... is a scumtell?

What makes you think I said that? I just said big ass readslists aren't wholly town motivated.

[Saki]

I pointed out that CherryDP was scummy for making one. my bad

[Saki]

The fact is I don't like those big readslists. It helps a person's reputation more than it helps their scumhunting.

[Titus]

I think Saki's trying to say that CherryPepper's readlist is information over analysis. I'm not certain though. It seems like he's saying it's a wall without substance. That is a scum tell. Having actual new information, with unique analysis, is not a scum tell. Maybe Saki should take another pass at trying to explain the CherryDr.Pepper vote.

Hydras talking to each other is a major benefit if town, but a major hindrance if scum. That's because both heads can get together and stop each other from being stupid. I do believe they are allowed to talk to each other in a qt thread. I do think Varsoon should have his eye kept on in case I am wrong but I think he's town.

[Saki]

Weirdly though, the argument about Varsoon is slightly compelling, but only because I've played with and butted heads with Varsoon before. I wouldn't expect him to sheep anyone. But agreement is not sheeping. Worth keeping an eye on. Hardly proof of Saki or Varsoon's alignment.

What I'm meaning to say is that Varsoon was going "FoS 'cause I'm not sure, FoS 'cause he's V/LA, FoS once more, (insert pasche confirmation that I'm scum), VOTE SAKI"
He isn't necessarily sheeping you but the fact that he voted me right after your confirmation is what bothers me.

@Titus
Yes I don't think CherryDP is doing anything else than saving face with that readslist



So hydra heads can talk to each other? And people are willing to take the risk of scum/wolves having such an incredible advantage?

[CherryDrPepper]

So hydra heads can talk to each other? And people are willing to take the risk of scum/wolves having such an incredible advantage?

It's just a person with multiple heads (in this case 2) hence the name "hydra", obviously the heads of the hydra can communicate, and this is why i think that some people dont like playing with hydras. Is that reason for a policy lynch? I can't really do much if all you do is hate hydras.

On to your other point, I promised a reads list and I delivered it, what makes you think there was no town motivation behind it? why would there be scum motivation behind it? Why would i be trying to "save face"? You need to analize stuff better imo.

-Sakura Hana

P.S: Btw, you have done nothing to figure our alignment, yet you're assinging us one and going from there.

[Titus]

Hydra heads are just as much of a bonus as they are a drawback. It depends on the circumstances. I understand valuing any scumslip harder because they are hydras, but if they are town, that means we have an extra person solving the case with us.

I don't like the leap to discrediting here. Observing something might not mean the person is right or has all the answers yet. While I don't agree with Saki necessarily, I'm not certain he's wrong either.

Saki, take a stab at Oriole and Flench please. What do their behaviors tell you?

[Flench]

My reasons for voting Flench

1) The Slip in 39

2) Post 199 - Seems pretty clearly written from a scum perspective, insulting his own opinions, saying he probably won't help etc.

3) His general behavior that Paschendale is the only town to clarify things for

4) His backtracking on clarifying who his scum suspects were when Cherry Dr. Pepper asked him to clarify.

5) A generally unhelpful demeanor towards the group and scumhunting in general (ex: prefers to talk theory rather than ask questions).

1. Most slips aren't really slips. They're just examples of someone phrasing something in a way that you wouldn't.
2. It sounds more frustrated than scum to me.
3. Quite true. I'm only one vote, and no one has to listen to me. Flench, post your thoughts. Don't look to me to lead you.
4. Do you mean in post 76? That's not backtracking. If you mean something else, please say which posts you're referring to.
5. Agreed, Flench's tone has been uncooperative and he should change that. But most of what he's said hasn't been wrong.

These aren't bad reasons, but I think they're wrong.

1. It wasn't a slip, if you have never heard that phrasing before then that's not my problem.
2. I am not as patient as some other players to go through and contradict these things with the evidence necessary, I have confidence the other players don't have the same views as you.
3. He seems like a competent player and is a confirmed town, why wouldn't I want his opinion on things?
4. Cherry didn't ask me anything he just "raised his hand"
5. Here's a question Titus. Why did you say that nobody tried a guess for Saki's free town points? Varsoon did. slippppppp

Also would like Glass's thoughts on Titus and Tunnel.

[Titus]

1. We've gone over that. I think it was. Some do. Some don't.
2. Wow. Another refusal and claim that others will do the work. Again, this thought is my opinion.
3. I never said you didn't want his opinion. My gripe here is that his opinion seemed to be the only one you listened to.
4. Post 170 is where CherryDr.Pepper raised his hand. It's clear that CherryDr.Pepper was indeed confused and wanted you to elaborate. The fact he said "*raises hand*" rather than I'm confused is rather nitpicky and farcial. I doubt you didn't understand CherryDr.Pepper was confused. Instead, you skipped over that anyway.
5. Missing something doesn't equal a slip. When someone brought that to my attention, I retracted my belief that no one had attempted to answer Saki's avatar question.


Care to give your opinions on our hydras Flench? Is there anyone besides Paschendale who you think is town?

[CherryDrPepper]

Re: The *raises hand* thing.

Your post said that if someone else wanted an explanation then you would say it, my *raises hand* post implied that i was that "someone else"

-Sakura Hana

[Titus]

Re: The *raises hand* thing.

Your post said that if someone else wanted an explanation then you would say it, my *raises hand* post implied that i was that "someone else"

-Sakura Hana

It's farcial to believe that could have been interpreted any other way. That's why I'm taking issue with Flench's ignoring of it and instead waiting for Pasch. He was basically ignoring everyone but Pasch, putting the game on his shoulders. Now that Pasch has called Flench out on that, maybe the behavior will change. We'll see.

[Flench]

Care to give your opinions on our hydras Flench? Is there anyone besides Paschendale who you think is town?

This is my first game with hydras, it seems to add more confusion to the game, I don't know what to make of them yet tbh.

Strongest town reads are Oriole and Dyslexicon, they both have been making productive posts and them being town agrees with my mafia suspicions.

I do think a mafia member has been targeted/pressured in this game, I am seeing some strange voting and reasoning for it at this point. We may have hit a nerve early.