Jack of All Trades Mafia -- OVER!

[Uraj45]

mystery meat of doom -- Jack Zimmerman, formerly Jack Davis
spectrumvoid (replacing Shamrock) -- Jack Kay, formerly Jack Irving
Open Office: Jack Davis

Excuse me?

[pablito]

I/armlx was Kay, I announced armlx's choices before. Mathcam as Kay claimed office switcher. Why did you forget, and why aren't you paying attention.

Why do'nt you trust that I know what's in Kay's office? Especially because mathcam claimed the same?

[Yaw]

I've had some comments by players to the effect that the front post is confusing. It's not intended to be, so if anyone has any suggestions for improvements to the organization there, please feel free to make them. I'll fix it up as best as I can.

Vote Count:

Uraj45 (2): spectrumvoid, pablito
pablito (1): Uraj45

Not Voting: Coron, Quagmire, Thok, Mastermind of Sin, Save The Dragons, mystery meat of doom, PookyTheMagicalBear

6 to lynch

[Uraj45]

Primarily, pablito, because the office of jack kay is listed twice and only found the first instance of it. Under the current setup it's a nightmare to tell who's currently occupying an office of a deceased player.

Regardless, I don't know when people decided they were too good for the LAL law, but I'm just as interested in upholding it now as I was last time.

unvote vote spectrumvoid

in the interest of the metagame.

For those who don't know what LAL is: http://www.mafiascum.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/LynchAllLiars .

Thok- As I said yesterday, the Fuldu lynch was ok by me, though not my first choice. You might of also I noticed that I was on the spectrumvoid wagon for a time, though pooky's sudden appearance vote made me uncomfortable with it. I basically stand by my thoughts yesterday and don't have much new to add.

It doesen't matter though. My vote won't be changing for the rest of the day. LAL is absolute.

I'll also note that the last time I called someone out in this matter he did, in fact, turn out to be scum. Look it up if you're interested.

[Coron]

did I ever mention how:
A) absolute LAL is a retarded strategy
B) You're totally scum
C) The only thing I can see that he might have really lied about is wanting his old office back.

The rest was merely withholding information, and I do that one all the frickin time. If I'm cop, I don't go day one and tell everyone that.

[pablito]

I'm lying. I'm the new office switcher. I did this in a mini, where I outed scum who tried to claim the role.

Pablito: How did you know?

Based on post 1541, vote: uraj45

SV, I can see what you did...but during last day, I was urging MMOD to put Jack Kay back into action because I didn't like the idea of only having one office-switcher out there. Scum would've had to have been inattentive to not remember there's two office-switchers. Plus, claiming roles in this game is NEVER indicative of alignment - so it was a semi-foolish gambit.

That being said, I'm feeling better about SV. Not entirely sure she's pro-town, but I feel absolutely positive that Uraj is scum now.

Between the votes yesterday including the thrown-away vote for me (which was a foolish pro-town move, therefore confirming it was a scummy move) plus the way you defend yourself today and yesterday, Uraj must be scum.

If Uraj was pro-town and still wanted to invoke LAL - there are flaws with invoking LAL.

1) SV never explicitly lied. She withheld information. I said that she was lying or she was

lying

. I was right that SV was only

lying

which was my way of saying she knew she was the office switcher but didn't want to reveal and was trying to do something. But I called her on it because I got impatient and wanted to push her to see what the hell was going on. When SV admitted to lying it was directly in response to what I was saying. And that was

lying

not lying. You took her statement at face value instead of realizing that SV was just literally responding to me.

2) If you were genuinely angry and wanted to "lynch all liars", you would've been angry, maybe cursed some, made a fit and run away with some angry words. I would never expect someone who really wanted to lynch all liars to actually link to the wiki about it. You're too rational about sticking to LAL and further more it's overkill to link to the wiki. You wanted to prove your point. And only scum would do such a thing.

3) This has nothing to do with lying, but it's further proof that yo'ure scum...but you're explaining away your inattentiveness with the front post. It's a valid reason, but scum tend to place an external locus of control and town tend to place an internal locus of control. Scum tend to blame on others "the front post is confusing to me" whereas town are more likely to admit fault "I misread the front post". One of my most reliable tells. Also just for overkill, I'm going to point to how Kay is not exclusively the office of a dead person. I inhabited it and my name is listed first. Kay should be fairly visible on the player list. Also, if you're not looking at the offices and wondering about them, you're not thinking in a pro-town mindset or at least not trying hard enough.

Let's get this over with. We've caught scum.

[Uraj45]

I'm sorry, but does anyone besides me notice the glaring holes in Pablito's logic?

Point 2 is a values judgement and completely fails. I can uphold a principal without taking it personally.

You're too rational about sticking to LAL and further more it's overkill to link to the wiki.

There's no such thing as being too rational. Do remember that this is a game ruled by logic and that becoming emotional is a trap that is best avoided.

The wiki is far from overkill. In my last game, half of the players didn't know what LAL was since they had joined more recently.

You wanted to prove your point. And only scum would do such a thing.

Yes, because a pro town player never ever rationalizes their actions with something so out there as *GASP* Proof! As is the norm for pablito, this statement defies all logic.

Point 3 describes inattentiveness. At no point did I see I was inatentive. That was your word, not mine. Did I miss something? Sure. Does that mean I'm not paying attention? No. This an extremist approach and does not show the sign of someone approaching from a rational angle but rather someone who's only goal is to lynch the person he wants to lynch.

Furthermore, declaring my vote as "thrown away" on the day before is another absurdity. Fuldu was going to be lynched if nothing else happened. This seemed ok, but I was still more suspicious of pablito. Putting my vote on pablito did two things
a. Set up a plan for the retracted deadline.
b. Make it less likely for my supsicions to go unoticed should I be killed during the night.

Coron brings up a valid point, though. Spectrumvoid didn't lie per se, she just said that she did. "I lied" is simply a phrase that sets off alarm bells for me and perhaps I got a little overzealous. I still hold to LAL, but coron's right.

unvote

And coron, if you don't believe in absolute LAL, that's your perogative, but I do. And you'll see this persist throughout my games, get caught in a lie and you'll have my vote. I also highly respect Jeep's opinion as he is one of the best players to ever be in the game.

vote pablito

I hope you're having fun on your high horse there, bud.

[pablito]

You knew I was half-trying to set you up right?

It doesen't matter though. My vote won't be changing for the rest of the day. LAL is absolute.

I'm really not sure what you're doing. Either you're flailing scum or really not paying attention to the game. I would've expected more of a "well this game really is going slowly" response to your inattentiveness. And really, "I wasn't paying attention" would've sufficed as your entire response. Instead you tried to dissect each one of my points.

[Uraj45]

LAL is absolute, I am not. I changed my mind. I acknowledged this. You don't get any points for that.

[Save The Dragons]

For those who don't know what LAL is: http://www.mafiascum.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/LynchAllLiars .

This alone tells me you're scum.

Vote: Uraj

$100 to dragon preservation!

[spectrumvoid]

My vote on Uraj stays.

I've managed to catch scum in at least 3 minis that I can think of offhand doing that. Rather obviously LAL does not work. Possibly what Uraj is trying to do now is go after someone whom people have expressed suspicion of ie me, under the pretence of LAL.

I can't see someone being logical and yet using LAL as an excuse to lynch someone. Either you're using LAL in which case you're emotional and illogical, or you're logical and you don't. It's an implicit contradiction.

That link is way overkill... I feel completely insulted, especially since I'm probably one of the few who has actually read the entire wiki, including player pages.

[Uraj45]

If you think LAL is emotional or illogical then you clearly don't understand LAL in the slightest. The point of LAL is not to win this game, it's to improve the metagame.

That is, if you lie and get lynched, you'll be less likely to lie next time. The reason for this is that 9 times out of 10, liars are scum. Why? Scum has to lie to win. Town doesen't. Simple.

So, if you lie, then you give scum an out. When they get caught in a lie they can turn it around and say it was a "ploy to catch scum". In short you're giving scum the ability to slip away once they've been caught in a lie.

There's nothing emotional about it. It's game theory and it's sound.

And you have no right to be insulted over a link. Again, I will remind you that the last time I mentioned LAL there were people who did not know what it was. The link is there for them. If you're not one of those people then the link isn't for oyu.

[Save The Dragons]

Here's the problem.

To me it looks like you linked that to get people to follow you and vote based on metagame reasons.

To be honest, I hate it when people lie for the hell of it. I wouldn't mind lynching those people.

However, now is hardly the time to start executing metagame strategies. If you're town and you think SV is town, then it makes no sense to lynch her just to prevent her from lying in the future.

One day, pro-town lying won't work (I still don't understand the full ramifications of what happened here, explain plz?), and she'll have to deal with it.

[Save The Dragons]

However, now is hardly the time to start executing metagame strategies. If you're town and you think SV is town, then it makes no sense to lynch her just to prevent her from lying in the future.

And I mean this because it's day 6 and we're low on the scums we've killed.

$300 for dragon preservation!

[pablito]

Well we can either go with some SV and Uraj argument and lynch one of 'em (or me)...

we can try to stir up some things about Quagmire or StD and their lack of significant participation in this game despite having scummy predecessors...

we can do a mass claim...

we can do a mass 'old office' claim...

or we can also do some sort of question phase where people ask what someone in their old office did.

For reference here's some changes:

Coron now occupies what Uraj45 had (IMPORTANT CHANGE)

Thok now occupies what Coron had.

StD now occupies what Thok had (I believe this was already claimed by Ibby)

Uraj45 now occupies what Pooky had (might be interesting)

Pooky now occupies what Quagmire had (I'd be interested in what's in there)

Quagmire now has BMQ's office. I don't think there was ever a claim, so I have no idea.

That's five of six so far that have offices that can be confirmable. I like that.

MMOD now has what CES had, and we know CES was pro-town.

SV now has what mathcam/armlx had, and we know what it is and SV confirmed it.

I have bluemonick's old office and that was never claimed.

MoS has what Bogre had and I don't think that was ever claimed (I'll have to look).

Now, knowing that there's practically six-seven confirmable roles out there, we could do some damage with that. Or at least we can make some interesting hypotheses. Now, I'm not advocating a mass claim. But if there's anything that someone found in their office which suddenly strongly incriminates its previous owner, you might want to think about saying something soon.

We were given a good opportunity, I think, with the corporate restruction at ACME. If we can take advantage of it, the town can prosper and kill more scums.

So, there's no way that there's nothing for you to talk about today. So get talking, get discussion up and let's try to get working and get this game done and over with.

[Coron]

It doesen't matter though. My vote won't be changing for the rest of the day. LAL is absolute.

LAL

Vote: Uraj

[spectrumvoid]

I think the LAL thing applies to people who lie about their role. I withheld info, I didn't lie. And meta-gaming sucks, go read the discussion about lynching people who play badly in the mafia discussion forum. I don't want to go into it here because its out of game stuff, but generally lynching someone for metagame reasons is frowned upon here for good reasons.

[Uraj45]

think the LAL thing applies to people who lie about their role. I withheld info, I didn't lie

This point has already been brought up and adressed multiple times. I'm well aware of this and it's the only reason I unvoted you. I said as much.

As far as metagaming goes. . .whether you like it or not, the metagame is there, and if you turn a blind eye to it then you're only depriving yourself of useful strategies. Metagaming has been used on many occasions already in this game. A few examples.

Uraj, you should know better, I ain't PJ or glork or Yaw or anything like that.
You've played with me before.

This is metagaming.

[quote = "Spectrum void"]
I'm lying. I'm the new office switcher. I did this in a mini, where I outed scum who tried to claim the role.
[/quote]

Also metagaming.
Anyone who remembers IS will know that it was

impossible

to play with him if you didn't metagame.

I browsed the metagame thread to which you refered and you can't possibly compare it to LAL. The decisions in that thread fall upon far more arbitrary decisions.

Perhaps it's unpopular now, and it saddens me to hear that. Mafiascum was a much different place two years ago, I suppose. But I still subscribe to the traditional mafia theory that was standard then and it still works.

[Coron]

Which is why we are lynching you for lying.

[Uraj45]

Except I didn't lie. I changed my mind based on a valid point. Calling that a lie is pure BS.

[pablito]

nonetheless, we're lynch -2. And you know that inevitably we're going to be deadlined.

[Uraj45]

Why so anxious pablito?

[pablito]

Nah, kinda more saying "claim if you want, but you're dead soon, anyway, so give up and claim scum instead"

[Thok]

Not really a fan of Uraj's defense here; his original vote for SV was specifically a metagame vote and not an attempt to find scum (and moreover, that vote seems to have been made hastily without actually looking over SV's posts.) His vote on pablito feels like a really prettied up OMGUS vote.

That said, I dislike that we've been focusing on what's happened today, and not looking over previous people's posts.

@Pablito, I would really like to hear what bluemonick's old office did.

[Coron]

Except I didn't lie. I changed my mind based on a valid point. Calling that a lie is pure BS.

A lie is a lie is a lie.
The whole point of LAL is so you don't post stuff you don't mean(or at least can't claim you didn't mean later). You clearly didn't mean there was no way you were moving your vote. What you did is much more clearly a LAL situation than what you voted on. Though honestly LAL is not why I'm voting you, it's mostly just to point out your hypocracy.