Two-Headed Mafia 2 - GAME OVER!

[Zindaras]

[Zindaras]

I doubt that everything in the thread is useless, ambic, though I'll get to that when I reread it. Which I hope will be this week.

[Zindaras]

Statler: You know, this forum really improves with age!
Waldorf: Why? Because the posts get better?
Statler: No! Because my eyesight gets worse!

<3 Pooky.

Busy with a project right now, I hope to get around to that reread by friday.

[Zindaras]

I haven't gotten around to rereading this thread. At all.

I blame Santa. And Blizzard.

Stupid addicting Diablo 2. >.<

[Zindaras]

I haven't gotten around to rereading this thread. At all.

I blame Santa. And Blizzard.

Stupid addicting Diablo 2. >.<

Wait wtf you're male?

Wha?

Me no get this post.

[Zindaras]

What is it with my 'tar that it makes everyone think I'm a girl?

[Zindaras]

Zindie's having motivational and time issues.

The good ol' gut's saying that GlorkoS is prolly scum. But that's without reading the thread. I sent CDB a PM last night, to which he responded that he had requested replacement.

[Zindaras]

*laughs*

My gut's even right about Glork when I'm not reading the thread.

Vote: GlorkoS

[Zindaras]

Uhh, could I get a quick re-run of claims, confirmedness, and all the like? I'm not sure if I will be able to get a re-read in, but I need at least some information.

[Zindaras]

Oh, I thought that this:

1.) Spec/Kleb, do you have any useful results for us?

and this:

vote: Glork/MoS

Scum.

were indications of a claimed Cop.

Unvote

, for the moment.

[Zindaras]

I'd vote GlorkoS because I have no trouble believing he's scum, but I want to know who he thinks is SK.

[Zindaras]

I've seen the information role Cult thing a lot, and I do it myself too.

The question is: what do we choose to believe? We don't know the sanity of the dead Cops. If they weren't sane, then voidybuns/klebby is probably talking the truth. If they were both sane, then I have trouble believing voidybuns/klebby is town.

On the other hand, three cops could be necessary to balance 4 Mafia/1 SK in this kind of setup.

Now, if there's a forced vig, there could be a Cult. But, then, I'd say, 3 Mafia+Cult, and two Cops plus a forced vig.

In that case, voidybuns/klebby (teehee, klebbybuns) is scum.

In the other case, we're screwed if we lose voidybuns/klebby.

Regardless, I feel that the correct lynch today is GlorkoS. The only possible way we could insta-lose with that lynch is if he's SK and there's 3 Mafia left, which is not the case.

And I'm overjoyed to see Skruffs replacing in. <3 Skruffs.

Catch me them scum!

[Zindaras]

Maybe this is pointless speculation, but I have once played as a Serial Killer who knew the names of all the Mafiates.

I'm not seeing Cult myself, though. It's possible, looking at the game, but I would've expected at least one dead Cult member by now.

[Zindaras]

Pay more attention. If spec/kleb are the Cult Leader, then they tried to recruit Pooky/Adele N2 and failed, and tried to recruit Glork/MoS N3 and failed. That means they only had a successful recruit on N1, meaning there would only be two cultists in the game. It is entirely possible for the cult to just be plain missed so far as nightkills go.

In my experience, Cults usually target experienced players Night 0. People like Yos, StD, Ibby, TSQ, they're usually prime Cult targets. They're all dead.

Indeed, it's not impossible that a two-member Cult survived this long. However, there's one point to be made about Cults and that's that they're broken if they have a 100% success rate.

Furthermore, you seriously need to at least glance over WoT Mafia. That was something like a 30 player game, and over the course of seven days and eight nights, not one cultist was nightkilled or lynched, even though the Cult Leader claimed to have some sort of information, and two of the cultists had claimed information roles (i.e. what you would think would be excellent nightkill targets for scum). A game with 17 players missing a maximum of two cultists for three nights and three days is more than possible, so far as I am concerned.

I don't check up on older games. I simply play from my own experience, and that is that Cults have a heck of a time staying hidden. I've seen it happen twice: once when the Cult converted a Mafia reverse-miller who had fake claimed Cop, who proceeded to stab his Don (ironically, me) in the back. Glork should be familiar with this game, as it is quite famous. The other instance was a Revive Cult, which only stayed hidden because people were being horrendously stupid.

In all other games wherein I have experienced a Cult win, at least one Cult member died before that. In Ghost Mafia, it was Glork. In Lunatic Mafia, it was ben 50-50.

That's it as far as Cult wins are concerned (Cult losses are obviously irrelevant, as Cult would have to die for Cult to lose).

If spec/kleb come up cult at this point, Zindie, you are starting to look like a likely cultist along with them, of those left in the game.

*shrugs*

Quite a conclusion-jump.

[Zindaras]

Lowell, are you even reading the thread? Glork has claimed Mafia.

[Zindaras]

armlx/Zindaras?

That's an odd target.

Also, hate to be a metagamer, but I doubt that Courk would be so quick to send a PM.

I don't buy this for one moment.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras, MoS is Glrok.

Yes, I know. That's why I said I don't buy it.

As an aside, armlx/Zindaras was never a pair in this game, which is why I said it was an odd target.

If I was the least bit unsure about kleb/sv before this recent activity, the gunsmith claim removed just about the last speck of doubt.

The only question is what to do now. I think some number crunching is in order, and everyone should participate. The fundamental question is: does it make any sense to lynch cult right now instead of GlorkOs? My guess is no.

No. There's a chance of there being 3 Mafia left and no Cult. Not lynching Glork would be a horrible horrible move in that case.

If we lynch Mafia, we force the Mafia to attempt to hit Cult, as the Cult could clinch the game if they don't.

1.) You tried to downplay it until it was obvious I was not going to curl up and go away.

I mentioned straight away that any vig should claim.

Dude, trackers are clearly more common than gunsmiths. Gunsmiths aren't really common, but they definitely occur.

If you're so sure we have a cult and a vig, then why don't get the vig to claim?

Vig-->Cult=Ouch.

Also, Glork, thanks for making me giggle.

[Zindaras]

I want to talk to Skruffs before hammering. He's probably got some insights.

[Zindaras]

17 player game. Dead are one Cult Recruiter, two Mafia. We're guaranteed another Mafia.

Personally, I think it's either 1 Mafia, 1 SK, 1-2 Cult left, or 2 Mafia, 1-2 Cult.

Anyway, I think Jellyboy could be scum, Cult even. You're consistently hammering on the fact that you'd sell out your Cult if you were recruited, and I don't like things like that. Skruffs has a nice post upcoming, and I expect goodness from it.

[Zindaras]

Oh, don't you dare try it, Zindie. You don't know me well enough, apparently. Try taking a glance at my past games with cults, my reactions afterwards towards cults, and my player statistics page (specifically where I talk about my dislike for cults). This is certainly not the first time I have held this position, and it will not be the last. It is not an indicator of my alignment. For example:

The difference between this game and others is that, in this game, you're paired with someone else. I'm simply wondering if you would do the same if MBL disagreed.

True, but they're pretty awesome to compensate. I don't see why anyone would recruit CES/MGM.

You're Dutch. Of course you're awesome.

[Zindaras]

Yes, of course they'd know.

[Zindaras]

MBL wouldn't have a choice. He knew the risks before he agreed to partner with me.

Mkay, I buy that...

MBL

, what's your general opinion of Cults?

[Zindaras]

Hmm, good, an honest answer.

One question, PJ. I know you dislike Cults, I've seen that for now, but, from a metagamin perspective, I'm interested in reading a game where the Cult got outed by one of its members. Have you ever outed a Cult befoe?

In my opinion, it is best to get rid of Mafia now. It forces the remaining Mafiate, if there is one, to attempt to kill Cult or risk losing (as there could, hypothetically, be 2 Cultists by now). And if it'd be the last Mafiate, we get in a position of 3 Town, 2 Cult, at which point we're not even in that bad a position, as long as we lynch Cult on the first try.

[Zindaras]

...

Yes.

Well, assuming there's one Mafiate, one SK, and 1-2 Cult left, we are, essentially, screwed.

Regardless, the theory works the same way as I suggested in the possibility of there being two Mafia remaining.

We lynch one killer today, thus forcing the other killer role to kill Cult next night. Then, we have to lynch the other killing role, thus leaving us with 1 Cult and 2 Townies alive, at worst.

Lynching Cult would then require one of the killers to cross-kill and immediately puts us in lylo.

So there are a few things to state:

1: We

must

lynch scum today. If we lynch town, it's gg, as there'll be only one or two townies remaining, against two killing roles and a Cultist. If we want to stand a chance at that point, we need a double cross-kill and only one Cultist.

2: Lynching killing scum would then require the other killing role to attempt to kill Cult. There's a chance of there being 2 Cult and a chance of there being 1 Cult. The killer won't be able to take the chance of there being 2 Cult and thus will have to look for Cult to kill.

3: Lynching Cult puts us in the situation of there being 5 players going into Night. 1 Mafia, 1 SK, 0-1 Cult, 2-3 Town. There will be 3 players left standing at the dawn of the next day, except if the SK and the Mafia target the same players. In this situation, we

must

have 2 Town left alive at the dawn of tomorrow to stand a chance. Therefore, if there's no more Cult remaining, one of the killers

must

cross-kill the other for us to stand a chance. If there is one Cultist remaining,

both

killers

must

kill other scum to stand a chance.

2 is in all ways preferable to 3, as in 3 we rely wholly on scum cross-killing. 2 doesn't.

Cessy's saying we should go with 3. Ergo, Cessy's looking real bad to me right now.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Elaborator on 2.

Four options:

1: Killer kills town, there's one Cultist left. We go into tomorrow with 4 people left standing, 2 town, 1 Cult, 1 killer. Lynch killer-->Lynch Cult is the only way we can win.
2: Killer kills town, there are two Cultists left. GG.
3: Killer kills Cult, no more cultists left. 4 people left standing, 3 town, 1 killer. Not a bad place to be.
4: Killer kills Cult, there's one Cultist left. See one.

[Zindaras]

Do you realize that in the situation of Killer, Killer, Town, the town has a decent chance of winning? We don't need 2 townies to live.

The town has the worst chance of winning that setup. Only 25%, completely random. And it's completely out of control too.

If we lynch Killer, we get shafted if 1 Town dies and there were 2 cultists, which looks far too likely to me.

So we're basically forcing the killer to kill Cult. I think that would be really good for the town.



Regardless, all this numbercrunching is all good and nice, but our first priority is to lynch scum. It doesn't even matter that much what kind of scum, just scum will do.

As for the questions, you've given me pretty much all info that I wanted, Jellyboy. Thanks for that.

The reason I'm interested is because I find Cults rather fascinating. I think they add an extra dimension to the game. They're annoying as hell, but they are interesting.

[Zindaras]

Woah, I missed an entire page.

>snippersnappers<

Hmm...

*considers*

Yeah, you've got a point with the numbers. I was mainly for lynching a killer because that would be a situation where it is possible for us not to have to rely on a cross-kill to win.

The whole point is that there's still, from my point of view, only a 50% chance that klebbybuns recruited last night. 6 people left. 1 already is Cult, so 5. I know I didn't get recruited, so 4. 2 Killers, so only a 50% chance of there being another Cultist. And I'm not entirely sure how much I trust klebbybuns's scumdars, as they have already attempted to recruit two scumbags before last night. I would, personally, be quite surprised if there's still two Cultists left.

What is mostly making me wonder is the fact that this Cult seems to have a 100% success chance on townies, which is very much broken, in my ever-so-humble opinion.

In general, I agree. Cultists are insanely difficult to lynch, simply because before recruitment, they were pro-town.

However, I do think somebody was recruited to the cult on Night One (or else spec/kleb would have had a third "X is scum" accusation), so we

should

be able to analyze people's play from Day Two, Day Three, and Day Four to search for one cultist. If there was a successful recruit on Night Four, there is really not much we can do but hope we lynch that person through happenstance, or hope that they are suddenly pushing a subtle pro-cult agenda today which could tip us off.

As I said, I don't think we should be looking for Cult, specifically, but rather for scum. Identify as many scum as possible, then decide who to lynch.

I have been considering mass-claiming for a while. What do others think about this? This could feasibly help us pinpoint scum of some sort. Even if this catches us killing scum, say, that will in turn narrow down the choices for possible cult-scum.

I'm game.

[Zindaras]

What is mostly making me wonder is the fact that this Cult seems to have a 100% success chance on townies, which is very much broken, in my ever-so-humble opinion.

Busted.

All your theories work from that assumption. A Cult Recruiter without a 100% success chance can't claim Cop simply because they do not know whether they failed due to their target being scum or due to a percentage chance.

[Zindaras]

Only if he knows, Zind, only if he knows.

But why would he know?

In all the Cults I've worked with, I've never seen that kind of a version.

[Zindaras]

What? The standard cult recruiter has a 100% success rate. It could've been changed without him knowing. I don't see what you're saying.

You mean that the success percentage wouldn't be mentioned in the PM?

Claiming an investigative role as Cult really only makes sense if you know you have a 100% success rate on Town, because if you don't, you wouldn't know the difference between failing on town and targeting scum (which would auto-fail). Therefore, claiming investigative role when you don't know if your failures are scum or town is practically suicidal.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: The standard I'm used to is as following:

Cult: The cult is done in a wide variety of ways, but in essence, the cult picks a player (the most common version is either they can only get basic town, or have only a % to convert) each night and tries to convert them. The Cult wins if they are more than 50% of the town. Cultists usually can talk to each other at night.

[Zindaras]

Zindie, cults have 100% success rates when recruited townies. it's the way cults work. Having a 50% chance would be like mafia having a 50% chance for their kill to go through, not going to happen.

Cults are vastly more powerful than the Mafia, for the exact reasons Jellyboy mentioned. It's very difficult to find a Cultist.

This is the first game I've played on this site with a Cult in it, and I hadn't bothered reading the Cult Roles for the games Jelly linked to. Therefore, I was under the assumption that Cults had been powered down on this site as well.

Apparently, they haven't been. That's rather saddening.

[Zindaras]

But Zindy, do realize that Cult recruiters don't have the advantage of numbers to begin with.

That's balanced out and far more by the facts that:

-They get to recruit confirmed townies. Suddenly, confirmed town becomes unconfirmed town. Suddenly, Cops become Cult. It's a huge hit against the town.

-They're unknown. I've seen Cults win simply by virtue of staying hidden, as one of PJ's linked games proves. If the town had known that there was a Cult, I'd guess that they would have gotten rid of Cult.

-Assume twenty players. 5 Mafiates is usually used in that kind of setup. Depending on the amount of correct lynches, it will take the Mafia 5-9 cycles to win (6 if there are no Mafia lynches, 9 if there are 3 Mafia lynches). A growing Mafia can still win the game even if the town lynches correctly every day, as long as they don't hit the recruiter. Their "time to win" is about equal to a 4-player Mafia.

This particular advantage of the Cult is balanced out by the fact that they can't expand anymore when the recruiter dies (though, again, the version I'm used to simply disbands when the leader's gone).

Cults are vastly more powerful than Mafia. Simple as that. Far more difficult to get rid of, far more difficult to find, and far more powerful because there are no clear anti-Cult roles. The example above assumes a Mountainous game, when games are not very often Mountainous. BGs and such are all very much anti-Mafia roles, but not anti-Cult roles. One could even argue that a Cop isn't going to be much use against a Cult, as it'll get cultivated as soon as he claims. Uncultables and other anti-Cult roles such as Alarmists (Cult-BGs) are way way underused.

[Zindaras]

A change of tone? That's crap. How can I change my tone if I hardly posted yesterday?

[Zindaras]

I'm working on assembling all my previous experiences with Cults, but it's taking a while.

Lots of games.

[Zindaras]

Could you link me to games where you've played with Cults, Zindaras? I probably won't be able to even look at them for a week or two, since I can hardly afford to read the games I'm already playing in, but if you could give a short synopsis of each game I would appreciate it.

Not in exact chronological order:

Ghost Mafia: I got recruited the same night I attempted to kill the unkillable Leader. Cult wins eventually. The Cult Leader's role was as follows:
You're the cult leader. You cannot be nightkilled. Each night, you have a 50% of recruiting a player to your group if they're not a ghost, and 25% if they are. The cult disbands if you are killed, and you win if MORE than 50% town is cult.

All Mafia were Ghosts. One of the two SKs was a Ghost. Some of the townies were Ghosts.

Ghost Mafia 2: Sucky follow-up for the original Ghost Mafia. I FoSed the Cult Leader to death (best example of metagaming ever. There was a role that could only die because of FoSes in the original, so I FoSed everyone a thousand times in the second). Role PM was as follows:
The Masked Wanderrer-You are the leader of the cultists, and the only one currently, but each night you have a 50% chance of turning a member of the town into a cultist. Of course, you have to have some better power, so you can't be killed at night, and if investigated by a PO, you will come up as a vanilla townie.
ROLE NOTE: Wins if 50% or more of town is cult. Auto death if FoS'd 6 or more times in all.

MPFG II: Town Aligned Cult. Cult Leader PM as follows (fluff deleted):
Of course, the magic stone of the cult leader doesn’t exactly operate at maximum efficiency when it’s being used for good deeds. It was designed for the purpose of creating ultimate evil, and all. Meaning…you can only attempt to recruit a player every other night.

Well, for starters, you can only recruit town aligned players. If you attempt to convert evil players, the recruiting to cult fails.

Recruiting will also fail if you target a player with a PO or a BG/BG like or type effect.
If a player is successfully converted into the cult, they learn of all the other players in the cult role

names and alignments, but not job descriptions.

(Your job description, for example, is “Cult Leader.”) The castle is under far too tight security for the cultists to gather and wander around, so cultists may not speak to each other at night or day. Once PariahKing and MiDra (the roles) both die, however, security very likely will be loosened and you will be allowed to communicate with fellow cultists at night.

Upon death, anyone who was recruited into the cult appears with their normal role but with the word “cultist” attached to their job description. If you would die, the cult disbands.

You win when all threats to MPFG are eliminated.

There was also a Zombie player, which is kind of a Cult. Mod notes as follows:

Mod Notes:
On nights that are three or multiples of three (3, 6, 9, 12, 15…etc.) Nosy G will succeed in eating someone’s brain. This will turn his victim into a zombie, and they will gain the ability to eat brains themselves. They will also always fail except on nights that are three or multiples of three. If someone gets their brain eaten, it shows up in the DP that so and so’s brain has been eaten alive.

All zombies will survive their first night kill, since they are so hard to hack up. Their attacker will learn, however, that the person they tried to slay was a zombie, and that’s why they failed. Zombies have no protection the second time they are attacked, and because they are so…out of it, being dead and all, they have no knowledge of this. When a zombie dies, they are pronounced dead as

Player Name, Zombie Aligned Zombie + (Whatever Their Role Was Goes Here)

upon death, even though their original alignment has not changed.

If every player alive left is a zombie, the game will end with all the zombies winning, and the land will be over run by zombies.

If Nosy G dies, have him curse Sean Connery.

(I don't know if these were ever posted in thread. I still have the design file. I got lynched quickly in a day where votes were anonymous, so I missed most of it)

Pokemon Mafia: Revive Cult. A horribly flawed concept, as the Cult Leader claimed his role in a mass claim, and almost got lynched. However, the Cult and their revivees (with me among them) managed to get the lethargic town to lynch non-Cult.

Cult Leader role PM (again, fluff removed):

You can't catch these Pokemons when they have too much HP. When a Pokemon is fainted (dead), you're able to catch them.
Each night you're able to send in a name of a player that died or was already dead.
You will try to catch that player and revive it again. From that moment, the Pokemon is yours.
You win when 50% of the liven Pokemons are in your possession.

Ash is cult in other words. He can only convert townies. He can't convert the mafia, individuals, Psychic Pokemons or Haunter.
He can't catch someone day 1 to weaken the cult.

Also, if the Charmeleon role evolved, he would become Cult.

Convoluted Mafia: I died pretty early on, Cult Leader PM was as follows:
You are the Cult Leader. Each night, you may PM me with the name of another player in the game and attempt to recruit that player into the cult. If the cult makes up 50% of the remaining players at any time, the cult wins the game. You win when all other threats are eliminated.

Game wasn't very balanced. I don't think I even read the end of it.

McDonalds Mafia: Game sucked. It got abandoned pretty quickly. We never found out if there even was a Cult, though the dead people list does suggest that.

Alien Mafia: Game three in the list of sucky old games. I find them rather embarrassing to talk about, in retrospect, but the modding really sucked at that time, barring a couple of them. The Cult was Robot Aligned, if my memory serves me well. Again, mod abandoned. Again, we never found out what the Cult's role was.

WotC Mafia: Oh, the humanity. *sighs* Cult Leader got killed Night One, we never found out what the Cult Leader's PM was, as the mod suddenly left.

Lunatic Mafia: Finally a finished game. Cult role was as follows:

Da Chocie: Dark brander the cult master. Had a 60% chance of succseful conversion. If killed cult would cease to exist and all members freed to original aligment.

Ben 50 Dark protector. I thought the cult was going to get screwed early on so Ben here would get killed instead of Dachoice. If that happened he would come up town aligned.

I wrote a summary for it (yeah, we do summaries), which can be found here.

Convoluted Mafia 2: Follow-up for the not-so-good Convoluted Mafia. Again, mod abandonment. Cult Leader got killed Night 2.

Mafia: the Gathering 8: A classic, even if I was rather annoyed by it when it happened. The Cult recruited my reverse-miller Mafia buddy who had claimed Cop, who proceeded to manipulate me into not killing the Cult Leader, then stabbed me in the back. Cult won. 'Nuff said. Cult role (again, fluffless):

ou may target one person each Night. There is a 50% chance that player will become Cult Aligned. You win when the Cult becomes the majority (half) of the population.

Mafia: the Gathering 12: Radiant only recruits the Serra Angels. She recruits on nights 1, 3, and 4 and stages the coup when she has converted two. After the coup, she reveals herself but gains mayoral protection including: cannot be lynched except by unanimous decision from the rest of the town, cannot be killed at night while one of her followers live, any vote not on the player being voted by Radiant only counts at 0.75 weight (takes a two-thirds majority to lynch if Radiant doesn't agree), and each night enacts a law (ala WrathofMegs from MPFG II). If all mafiates are dead then Radiant's Army and players with the win condition "You win when all threats to the Realm have been defeated." win. Those with the win condition "You win when Serra and her Realm are safe from all threats." lose. Radiant is not a threat to the Realm, but is a threat to Serra.

All the Serra Angels were vanilla. I got this particular incarnation lynched for flavour issues, as Radiant revolted against Serra in the MtG storyline.

Zodiac Mafia: Terribly unbalanced game. 3 Mafia, 1 SK, a Cultist and a townie who thought he had no win condition. Cult PM was as follows:
You are one of the worst diseases in the world, and even if all the other diseases on earth wil one day be cureable, you will still reign supreme. Each night, you may spread cancer on somebody else. Successrate is 50%
You win when your cult becomes the majority of the players.The cult disbands upon your death.

Bastard mod note: Successrate is 0%

It was the mod's first game. It was rather sucky.

Ghost Mafia: Return to Ghost Manor: Meant to fix Ghost 2. I designed this together with the mod of the original Ghost. It has two Cults (no Mafia), and I think that those Cults were quite balanced. A summary can be found here. The game was so intricate it's really quite unexplainable without writing up multiple pages.

The first Cult had a Town Aligned Leader who thought he was a Doctor. He could only target any player once, and he'd fail on any non-town player. Upon death, the Cult would persist but no new recruits could possibly be added.

The second Cult had a 10% success rate for every Cultist alive (counting himself and the members of the other Cult, but not the other Cult's leader). He also got an extra 10% if he was FoSed in a day. He had to send in a Cult member's name to do the cultivation, and if he targeted any non-Town player, the player sent would die. To help him a bit, he survived his first death. If he got over a 100% success chance, he'd be able to recruit a second player. If he died, a new Cult Leader would be chosen with the same restrictions.

Blizzard Mafia: A rather meh-ish game. Cult Leader got lynched Day 3, but I wasn't around at that point anymore. PM was as follows:
You are the Protoss Dark Archon, Cult-Aligned Cult Leader. You’ve always aimed to be the top of the Starcraft universe, and you view now as your big chance. Each night, you may PM me a name. There is a chance that that player may be recruited into the cult.
If you die, the cult is disbanded. You may communicate with your fellow cultists only during night.

The cult wins if it composes at least half of the town. Good luck.



Mod Note: Conversion chance is 50% for Town, 25% for Mafia and SK.


That's it as far as finished games are concerned (though I may be missing one or two somewhere). There are some games still running where I suspect/know there's Cult.

As you can see, pretty much all Cults have percentage chances, fail on specific roles, lose members or disband upon death. Cults have become boring and lame. Luckily, there's a "new movement", of which I find Ghost Mafia: RTGM and MtG 12 the best examples, where Cults are different and more innovative.

[Zindaras]

Also, I encourage you to look at WoT Mafia. Tamuz the Cult Leader could only recruit certain townspeople (specifically non-channeling females and some males, I don't remember the exact criterions), and he was not told of when and why he failed recruitments. Despite not knowing if failed recruitments lead to scum, he still claimed results on failed recrtuitments during the day. Simply because that might not seem optimal to you doesn't mean other players won't do it.

You're missing one important thing. WoT Mafia was a no reveal game, so nobody would know whether or not the Cult Leader was lying about his targets being scum. (assuming that the town/scum roles weren't obvious. I know nothing of the Wheel of Time. It's one of the series I have yet to read)

[Zindaras]

^ That's a lot of games. I need to get working on a case brief due in less than two hours, so I will read your post later.

*giggles*

Lots of games, so lots of Cults. Cults were really popular at the moment, too.

As for the Tamuz no-reveal scenario (although I wouldn't expect you to know this), Mastermind of Sin (not Macros) had made the dead list in the first post. I don't recall the deaths exactly, but he put two players in green (to signal town) and one player in red (to signal scum), although exact roles were not revealed, so we did, in fact, think that alignments were revealed to the town at that time, and it was during that Day One where Tamuz claimed that we should wagon Mr. Flay-scum. Sometime later in the game, Macros took away the colors, and we were no longer told player alignments.

Then I applaud Tamuz for gambling. It was a nice play indeed.

You're familiar with the curious incident of the dog in the night-time, I suppose?

Uhm, yes, actually, I am. Read it once or twice. Good book. Why ask? It doesn't seem to be relevant here.

As for the whole 100% success rate thing, the reason I came to that assumption is as following:

-In all those games I linked to you, only two Cult Leaders claimed an investigative ability, if my memory's not failing me. One started off by claiming he had a targeting role of which he didn't know what it did. Then, when he died his first death, he claimed to have been a burglar Ghost. If I remember correctly, all his "investigations" were on a fellow Cult member or a dead person. This was also the game with no Mafia.

The other one claimed, if I remember correctly, one-shot PO in lylo with guilty on the one unconverted scum (he had converted the other one).

-It didn't make sense for klebbybuns to claim an investigative role if they didn't have a 100% success rate.

-I didn't really understand why everyone was so sure there was two Cult left.

I'm thinking Cessyboy's Cult right now, if I look at what he's doing. For the rest of the scum, I need to actually read the game, which I still haven't done.

[Zindaras]

Hmm, plainly you're not familiar with it, then. The original "curious incident of the dog in the night-time" was a line from the Sherlock Holmes story

Silver Blaze

. When Watson protested that the dog did nothing in the night-time, Holmes responded that that was the curious incident.

Oh.

The book's better. The dog dies in that one. >.>

[Zindaras]

Screw this, I'm going with my gut again.

Vote: Cessybuns/OvertheUnder

[Zindaras]

Or, in other words, you have no case.

You are correct in this assessment.

[Zindaras]

This is my gut talking, but this is how I see it:

Cessy-Cult.
Lowell-Town.
PJ-SK.
Amb-Cult.
TSS-Mafia.

[Zindaras]

This is my gut talking, but this is how I see it:

Cessy-Cult.
Lowell-Town.
PJ-SK.
Amb-Cult.
TSS-Mafia.

I probably need to clear this up.

Cessy's obvobv scum, in my opinion. He's giving off loads of scumvibes. Lowell because I'm just getting general town vibes from him. If his question about whether you'd know that you were converted or not was asked truthfully, he's confirmed as town. PJ because he feels off somehow, as if he's not really that interested in winning the game for the town.

Amb is based on the assumption that there are two cultists remaining. If there are two remaining, he's the most logical choice for Cult. Relatively active but still not really showing up on the radar. TSS is Mafia by process of elimination, and because he's lurkerscum.

The only other reasonable candidate for cultivation right now is Lowell.

[Zindaras]

Where do you get that impression? I believe we have already caught CES-scum, and I'm the person who has been calling for people to slow down instead of lynching as quickly as possible. I think (although MBL disagreed with me the other night) that if we can nail a second scum today, the town could potentially get scum to crosskill each other, which is precisely what I think we are going to need in this game.

My gut's telling me it. I d'no, you're just feeling very much off to me.

If CES is not Cult, then Zindaras almost

definitely

is. Zindaras pushed a

very

bad agenda today, one which would drastically help a Cult (by trying to lynch players with killing abilities: anybody should realize that the town is

going

to need a crosskill or two in order to win this game).

As I said, my experiences with Cults is wholly different. I felt that there was only a small chance of there being two Cultists.

Further, if CES is not Cult, that is pretty much the only person Zindaras has even considered to be Cult and has pushed on the entire day (while even most recently stating that he does not have a case).

I don't need a case to be right. Case in point: Glork.

At the end of his latest post, he throws on Lowell as being a possible Cultist even though directly above that he talks about the possibility of Lowell being "cleared" if his question was serious.

Cessy: Can't be second Cult, as he's the first one.
You: Can't be second Cult, for obvious reasons.
Me: I know I'm not Cult, but for the curious ones. I don't think that voidybuns would've cultivated me last night. I would gamble that she thinks I'm scum of some sort, or, at the very least, completely not interested in the game.
TSS/Nightson: Huge lurking scum of doom.
Amb: One of the few players who actually seem to be consistently posting.

I think Amb would be the best Cult target. If you're dropping Amb, that leaves Nightson or Lowell as second Cultist, which means that either of them would be Cult. In that case, I would be more inclined to think that Lowell is Cult. In the post, I clearly state that Lowell is cleared if and only if the question was asked truthfully, which we obvobv do not know.

[Zindaras]

Also, the above is assuming that there are two Cultists, which we don't know, obviously.

[Zindaras]

Zind, I guess I think he's cult. Just because. He seems different in this game than in others I've played, and that's as good a reason as any for me at this point. I don't know that there are many "tells" a converted cultist is going to give off.

Dude, you've played in one other game with me, and that one's still running and I'm still alive in it.

Unless you're counting, I do believe, Mini 308, in which I got shot Night 1 and in which you, if my memory's serving me well, replaced way after.

Also, *hits Skruffs with a newspaper*

Bad Skruffs! You're supposed to be right, silly! There has to be at least 1 Cultist, or Voidybuns would've claimed investigative role from the get-go.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: And there's only supposed to be one Mafiate, too. 4 Mafiates, a Cult and a Serial Killer would be borked in this game.

[Zindaras]

I don't follow. *eats newspaper*
I'm not saying there isn't a cultist. There is in all likelihood one, but I think the scum are trying to get the townies to turn on each other.
It's possible the SK is actually a vig. That is a pro town role. It's possible that there are two cultists. It's also possible SV didin't get any recruits and was waiting until she had something to defend (someone to back her up) before she claimed a cop. Three failed attempts would be discouraging. Why bring attention to yourself when you have nobody on your side.
I love SV but in the game I just played with her, she was scum with me, and she was fairly conservative.
She was *supposed* to claim cop as mafia but never did, and after the game faltered for a week or two, i took the reins and claimed it instead. Point is, I'm not going to cut off my nose because I'm afraid it has a booger in it. pro townerse (and cultists, if any) should all want the mafia gone, that's the only Certified threat we are facing.

Voidybuns claimed Day Three with a "scum result" on PookyDele, if my memory's serving me well. She also claimed to have found scum in GlorkoS.

There's 2 Cult, max. In Night 2, voidybuns targeted PookyDele. In Night 3, she targeted GlorkoS. This leaves Night 1 and Night 4 unaccounted (she died in Night 4). She claimed to know PookyDele was scum Day 3. Why would she not do the same Day 2 if she had found scum at that point? Why would she not have claimed knowledge of an extra scumbag?

No, there has to be a Cultist from Night 1. If she took the risk to claim, she would've claimed all her "scum results", not just the ones that she did.

[Zindaras]

You have not rebutted how my actions were pushing a pro-cult agenda, looking at my earlier experiences with Cults.

Also, what would you have done if I had, instead, talked to Skruffs over PM? Anyone else could've (and would've) pointed out the fact that it was complete bull.

[Zindaras]

WHAT?

I

haven't rebutted the fact that you weren't pushing a pro-cult agenda? Yeah, let's look at your posts real quick.

Post 1068, pushing a lynch on non-cult scum. Post 1070, after being told you were not considering all the knowledge we have, you still pushed a lynch on non-cult scum.

I rebutted your push in Post 1075]Post 1075. Only until this was gone over in explicit detail did you stop pushing your idea. So yes, I would say you were pushing a pro-cult agenda.

At which point I was under the assumption that a second Cultist was pretty damn unlikely because of the differences in Cults between where I usually play and here (percentage chance as opposed to 100% chance of success, as I denoted in 1087). I felt that the chance of there being two Cultists were pretty damn small.

Response to your second question: that's when you send Skruffs a PM telling him his "theory" makes no sense, or talk to him over AIM. If you get him to change his mind, he can say as much in-thread.

"Hey, Skruffs gave an opinion but Zindie called him back on it! It's obvious that they're Cult and Skruffs slipped up but Zindie tried to fix it by telling him to take it back!"

The fact that you dramatized it (with such things as "whacks with newspaper" and "eat newspaper") makes it simply look like you two were

bantering

, and that there was a purpose behind that banter.

Entirely WIFOM, this argument is.

[Zindaras]

My position is not that Skruffs "slipped up": my opinion is that the two of you arranged that slip up, specifically for the purpose of putting on a show to make it so the two of you look like you haven't been culted. The wording of your posts and the general banter I read between them supports this. Of course I can't have cold, hard facts: this

is

a subjective game. I have to read deeper than what is on the surface. I sense fakery in your posts, and I'm calling the two of you out on it. Call it gut if you like.

*shrugs*

If the thing was real, would we be more likely viewed as Town? Faking an argument is bull. You and MBL may like to discuss things off-thread, I like to keep things nice and tight in thread, as I feel that you can't go wrong with posting your opinions.

[Zindaras]

*shrugs*

Main reason I signed up for this game was because it seemed fun. Personally, I've never been enamored with Mason roles.

We have had some minor talks, yes, which led to me putting you as SK (Skruffs thought you were scum, I agreed with him). It also led to Skruffs's post, as I poked him to post his opinions, because I felt that I was doing most of the talking for our body. Unfortunately, I didn't ask him what he was going to post, or otherwise I would've explained the problems to him then and there.

[Zindaras]

...

Gogogadgetspeedlynch, eh?

Stupid.

Real, real stupid.

[Zindaras]

Was there anything I could have done to allow the game to run smoother, considering the site down time and number of replacements?

More proactive prodding? That's pretty much it. I rather like deadlines myself.

What did you like about this game?

The fact that I was right about Glork being scum without even reading the thread. I was rather amused with Skruffs as well.

What didn't you like about this game?

Guilty conscience from not reading the thread.

Was the "Day X starts on this post" list in the first post useful?

Those are always useful. Every mod should use those.

Was there ever a point when you thought one player was suspicious, but you didn't feel that way about his or her partner?

Nope, but I didn't play a lot, either.

Was there ever a time you found your other head to be scummy?

Hells yeah. That's pretty much how we got lynched.

Did having a partner affect your usual playing style?

No.

Did you enjoy having a partner, or did you see it as a hassle?

Oh, it was fun, though I would've preferred to have picked my own.

Did you ever delay posting so you could check something over with your partner first?

No.

How often did you talk to your partner during days? During nights?

Not a whole lot. I sent CDB a PM, to which he responded with "No, I want to be replaced". I talked a bit to Skruffs, mainly to get him to post.

Any improvements you can suggest about modding in general?

Cults are the antithesis of fun.

For players without abilities: Did having a partner make the game more interesting?

I didn't particularly get more interested after Skruffs replaced in.



We got lynched in a really really stupid way. I felt like the entire town wasn't even attempting to argue and were letting the scum (Cessy/PJ/MBL) lead them to their doom.

As for why I was pretty much "Ok. Whatever" in conversations: I didn't read the thread. I had no feelings, no emotions, for this game. They only started coming after we got in trouble, as they always do with me. Also, personally, as I stated in thread, while I see masons as an interesting role for coordinating attacks and such, a mason is only really very interesting if they aren't bonded. Unbonded masons can leave suspicions and directions with their buddies when they die. What can I talk about with my mason as a normal townie? Who we think is scum? If I think someone is scum, I post it in thread.

Pretty much everything a vanilla townie has to discuss with their buddies is stuff that I feel they should post in thread.

[Zindaras]

Except CES wasn't scum.

It doesn't change the fact that that was how I felt at the time. Regardless, it was PJ who really led that lynch, in my opinion.

The Cult did not out PJ. In my opinion, the playing in this game wasn't very good (and yes, I'm including myself in that). PJ/MBL was the only pair which did reasonably well.

[Zindaras]

I'm really rather amused by the fact that all the Cultist recruitings were unsuccesful. But that does make me wonder: why did the Cult claim gunsmiths with scum on Pookdele and GlorkoS if they could just as well have been town power roles?

[Zindaras]

I'm mainly enamored with links to the beginning of each day so I can analyze kill methods and lynch voting. Personally, I lynch to every specific death.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Lynch=Link.

Too much Mafia.