Mini 388: DOOMsville II {Game Over!}

[Adele]

klebian, when you first said you were doing this analysis (back in mid-january) I was really expecting it to fully materialise before now. You held us off by giving us some, but the most important bit is still missing, and now we have a deadline. Until the analysis appears,

vote: Klebian

[klebian]

i think i'll do it either today or sunday.

[Turbovolver]

I was originally happy with Norinel's contribution, even if it was sparse, but that patience is quickly wearing thin.

Making the "people with votes on them" distinction seems a lot like an excuse. And not only that, the post before was simple gameplay stuff, plus using Adele's justification as his own.

He was another one who said I picked the two easiest targets by playstyle. Have you encountered them before, Norinel? Or are you just assuming they play this way as town?

I'm still waiting for klebian's analysis, but I am just as keen for something more substantial from Norinel now.

He was one of the ones ShadowLurker was clearing, yeah?

[klebian]

That's right.

[klebian]

i didnt put them at three because i find the discussion of a third vote useless

Ozy, you filled your post with too much filler. Pointing out that more talk is good is just worthless, everyone knows that. Kil already said they were going to reread and repost and asked for time, but you FOSed within a few hours.

Kilmenator was saying disscusion was useless. I was merely trying to point that out. Because everyone knows that more talk is good, right?

I didn't know you felt so strongly about an FOS...

I'm not saying we should lynch her now. My goal was just to let her know that I think she should do a bit more thinking before she posts to avoid confusion. I was and still am quite willing to give her plenty of time to work out anything that has caused confusion.

First, I already mentioned this, but the 1st point seems like misrepresentation to me. Second, I don't think that point was necessary to make. It seems like a hidden accusation and is just waiting for a bad response for a vote. 3rd: this was about kilm confusing games, but I think this was a pretty weird point, and it looks like another accusation in the guise of appearing helpful.

Hey, scrolling down to Turbo's post 257, I seem to have said almost the exact thing he did. I agree with this post.

Then bird and mert are modkilled, which is good because the godfather died, but kinda bad, because the watcher also died.

Kilm makes a pretty good summary of her opinions, and someone notes that she didn't vote anyone, but this is fairly irrelevant, I think.

Then there's some discussion between a few people (kilm, turbo, and adele mainly) and ozy about his responses. He makes a sarcastic comment that turbo doesn't like... Turbo makes good posts here, and ozy makes ok responses. Discussion is moderate, and nothing really scummy is going on, which people point out by saying that the only thing happening is turbo vs ozy which may even just be mountains of molehills.

Then post 309, ozy votes adele for "Falcone/Adele: Falcone produced a false dilemma, which I am not liking. Even if the reasons were the only two in his mind, that doesn't mean that there aren't other options, no mater how unlikely they are. And he seemed to present them as the only two possibilities. Plus, we haven't heard much from Adele, which I am not liking as well. " I disagree on both points. The false dilemma seems pretty strange to bring back, when it DOESN'T really seem as if those were the only possibilities. And then he doesn't like adele's not posting which she had already explained (post 308 "Sorry for my absence, I'm afraid I can't post now til later.") The false dilemma is refuted by adele, patrick agrees with adele, and sl votes ozy.

Then geraint posts (kinda near a deadline)

if ozy does end up getting lynched, it will be one of the worst lynches i have seen. just a truly poor game to try and get a 'fair' lynch from, if that makes sense. i'll be very disappointed if ozy goes (unless he turns up scum of course)
and if we get two new players, they'll have like 5 days to actualyl post, almost worthless this game makes me sad.

I'll be disappointed if he goes unless he's scum seems like trying to cover up that he already knows ozy will be scum. I don't like this post, the points against ozy were fairly solid, and he doesn't really say why he doesn't like an ozy lynch.

I have had a few vibes of geraintm defending Ozy, which I'll look back on tonight when I get in. I've noticed that when scum are under pressure they often become the world's biggest lurker hunters. Not that geraintm himself is under any pressure, but he is indirectly defending Ozy by attacking the inactives/lurkers.

Patrick, as we have both just been in Newbie 289 my postings in this game are very consistent in my actions back there. Look at post 61 from that game. And i have my vote on Rosso because i placed it there for a reason, and i tend to neeed a good reason to move my votes. I now have a reason

vote patrick

turbo - i know i didn't make much of a claim on my thoughts of ozy's scumminess. i didn't think my thoughts on the matter were especially important compared to the question on what i thought a fair lynch was.

I really don't like his point against patrick. Makes little sense to me. and his response to turbo doesn't make that much sense either.

turbo - i know i didn't make much of a claim on my thoughts of ozy's scumminess. i didn't think my thoughts on the matter were especially important compared to the question on what i thought a fair lynch was.

OK, now this I don't like. You don't want to lynch people until everyone can weigh in, but you don't think weighing in on the possible lynchee is particularly important. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Agree.

ok, lots going on here now. yay! my thoughts... i dont really like ozy's play much but am not comfortable with him not being around, so i really dont want to put a vote on him especially not knowing his role.

Pretty vague, and that 'especially not knowing his role' makes me think that she'd be partial to lynching off claimed townies...

What do you think Adele single focus has been and why do you think she has had that focus.

Pretty sure you're not reading the game carefully. Scum is much more likely to read carelessly.

I really don't buy the "not reading properly = scum" routine. There is nothing to suggest that townies wouldn't be lazy, nothing to suggest townies have better reading comprehension than scum, etc etc. The argument about scum only reading what concerns them isn't particularly true either, because there are definitely 'naturally defensive' townies.

Scum is also not likely to write that sentence you wrote to attract attention to a relationship between them and their partner. So I'm going to operate for now on the belief that Ozy and kil are scum and Adele is not.

I don't get it.

And you're "operating on the belief"? This sounds ridiculously sure of alignments, it doesn't have the 'townie doubt'. And unlike when people say stuff like "pretty sure X is scum", you don't seem to be saying it to provoke a reaction or be dramatic.
Townies don't "operate on beliefs", they keep their mind open and remain eternally curious until the scum are dead.


Still waiting for Ozymandius but I would also support votes for MBL at this point.

Still good responses from turbo, with MBL making posts I don't like after a long period of lurking and some people not liking this.

Then ozy claims unlynchable townie. Kinda awkward time to claim, but the lynch doesn't go through.

After night, when no one dies, mbl posts this:

Cool, we have some confirmed innocents or guilties. Who wants to go first?

Really really weird post. Don't like it.
(top page 16)

And that's all I have time for atm. Need to wake up in 6 hours. Turbo plays better in this part of the game, and his responses/attacks are quite good. SL plays ok, I don't like ozy's posting but he's unlynchable and someone said that unlynchable scum is bastardmoddery, so I suppose that he's confirmed. I also didn't really like geraint, he's basically lurking, but being fairly vague... Also don't like MBL, and I'm ok with kilm's playing. Adele hasn't posted enough up to this point of my analysis, so I can't say much. Sorry for still not being done. But it's more.

[kilmenator]

Just a note on Ozy, major metagaming or whatever here, but if you take a look at the setup of the other doom game, there were people who got lynched on the side of the town and turned against it because they couldnt be lynched, and visa versa, if Ozy is either of those two roles, I would bet he would be anti-town in the beginning and now with the town, just going on the fact that he didnt explain a role, just said he was unlynchable. That is my opinion for what it is worth. I need some time to think and then psot some more.

[Norinel]

He was another one who said I picked the two easiest targets by playstyle. Have you encountered them before, Norinel? Or are you just assuming they play this way as town?

kilmenator I've played with before in Newbies. I replaced friday-13th in (the now-finished) Jungle Republic, where she was town.

People's grammar, writing style, and strategic approach don't get significantly worse when they're scum. If they did, it'd be way too easy.

[ShadowLurker]

He was another one who said I picked the two easiest targets by playstyle. Have you encountered them before, Norinel? Or are you just assuming they play this way as town?

kilmenator I've played with before in Newbies. I replaced friday-13th in (the now-finished) Jungle Republic, where she was town.

People's grammar, writing style, and strategic approach don't get significantly worse when they're scum. If they did, it'd be way too easy.

Do you have some thoughts than who you think are scum then? If you're not happy where everyone is going, an alternative is always nice.

[MrBuddyLee]

What's a watchman do?

[ShadowLurker]

You are the Watchman. Every night you may choose to watch someone to see who is targeting that player.

[Turbovolver]

He was another one who said I picked the two easiest targets by playstyle. Have you encountered them before, Norinel? Or are you just assuming they play this way as town?

kilmenator I've played with before in Newbies. I replaced friday-13th in (the now-finished) Jungle Republic, where she was town.

People's grammar, writing style, and strategic approach don't get significantly worse when they're scum. If they did, it'd be way too easy.

So there was some basis there. Anyways,

Grammar and writing style aren't likely to change. But I never found anyone scummy for bad grammar or writing style in itself. Some of the things coming out of Friday's mouth were very scummy, and when I read such things my first thought was not "Well she probably didn't mean to say it and it's just a symptom of poor writing".

As for "strategic approach", if someone's strategic approach didn't change then they wouldn't have scum tells! Everything is motivation.

[Turbovolver]

I liked Klebian's analysis more this time, and not just because he's happier with me
I do get the feeling though that it's rather forced. Not necessarily that the opinions are forced, but that it's being posted primarily to appease, rather than to share.
Of course, people were pressuing him to give some good analysis so it's not necessarily a scummy forced, but something to note.
Considering there is a deadline, even if you cant finish your in-depth analysis Klebian, some up-to-date suspicions would be preferred.

I was inspired a bit by your review though, I'll take a better look when I get more time.

[klebian]

Tbh, if it was forced, I was just trying to not take too long of a time. I'll attempt to complete this today if possible.

[kilmenator]

May I ask what everyone else thinks of ozy's alignment? And to respond to klebian on the point that I would want to lynch townies isnt accurate, I would definetly not want to lynch a power role such as a cop, doc, or such. To me, a townie would not be what I wanted to lynch, but if he claimed townie and I thought he was scummy, I wouldnt feel so bad about lynching him. If he claimed power role, I would be much more likely to lay off for a little while and watch to see what happens.

[ShadowLurker]

May I ask what everyone else thinks of ozy's alignment? And to respond to klebian on the point that I would want to lynch townies isnt accurate, I would definetly not want to lynch a power role such as a cop, doc, or such. To me, a townie would not be what I wanted to lynch, but if he claimed townie and I thought he was scummy, I wouldnt feel so bad about lynching him. If he claimed power role, I would be much more likely to lay off for a little while and watch to see what happens.

Protown, there's no way we would have an unlynchable scum as that would require us to vig him and once the vig is dead we're screwed.

[klebian]

Of course, there are sometimes roles where you're unlynchable

once

, aren't there?

Btw, sorry, but I won't be completing my analysis today.

[ShadowLurker]

We can test it again if we have to but we shouldn't be worrying about him at the moment.

[MrBuddyLee]

Definitely not excited about the people advocating wasting another lynch on Ozy. Sure, there's a chance he's scum, but is it likely? It's a play that doesn't make sense for protown players to push.

He's the only one of our semi-confirmed townies the scum could reastically get a lynch on. I think they're taking pokes at doing just that.

[Adele]

We can test it again if we have to but we shouldn't be worrying about him at the moment.

/agree

Sorry, but I'm holding off unvoting for now. Either the complete analysis or (as Turbo says) some reactions to the current gamestate would satisfy me. Certainly don't feel like I want a PBPA because I like making people jump through hoops

[klebian]

Well, I've attempted to have a 'reaction' at the end of both analyses.. But I guess it's not really current.

[Turbovolver]

Well, I've attempted to have a 'reaction' at the end of both analyses.. But I guess it's not really current.

Yeah, they were basically summaries/conclusions of your analysis. The problem is yes, you've proven you're willing to analyse and make reasonable conclusions, but scum or town can make reasonable conclusions. That's why at this point I'm feeling like I wouldn't care if you didn't want to go so in-depth with the rest of the thread, just to give current thoughts.

[geraintm]

Then geraint posts (kinda near a deadline)

if ozy does end up getting lynched, it will be one of the worst lynches i have seen. just a truly poor game to try and get a 'fair' lynch from, if that makes sense. i'll be very disappointed if ozy goes (unless he turns up scum of course)
and if we get two new players, they'll have like 5 days to actualyl post, almost worthless this game makes me sad.

I'll be disappointed if he goes unless he's scum seems like trying to cover up that he already knows ozy will be scum. I don't like this post, the points against ozy were fairly solid, and he doesn't really say why he doesn't like an ozy lynch.

i think it would be an unfair lynch because too many people would have been able to stay effectivly silent for the whole of today, giving up little info for tomorrow. i dislike it strongly if people are able to not get involved in a lynch. a fair lynch is if there is plenty of discussion and everyone has had they say.
in this case, i think it wouldn't be good if ozy ends up lynched when at the same time mod is sending out prods to 30% of the people playing...

Your post here is very lazy for someone who is doing a review of the game. I clearly say why i thought lynching Ozy was a bad idea in a later post where i explained what i thought an "unfair lynch" was. As that post i am quoting of myself was 4 hours after the one you quoted, i find it hard to beleive you missed it. How did you, or was your quoting just quiet selective?

I have had a few vibes of geraintm defending Ozy, which I'll look back on tonight when I get in. I've noticed that when scum are under pressure they often become the world's biggest lurker hunters. Not that geraintm himself is under any pressure, but he is indirectly defending Ozy by attacking the inactives/lurkers.

Patrick, as we have both just been in Newbie 289 my postings in this game are very consistent in my actions back there. Look at post 61 from that game. And i have my vote on Rosso because i placed it there for a reason, and i tend to neeed a good reason to move my votes. I now have a reason

vote patrick

turbo - i know i didn't make much of a claim on my thoughts of ozy's scumminess. i didn't think my thoughts on the matter were especially important compared to the question on what i thought a fair lynch was.

I really don't like his point against patrick. Makes little sense to me. and his response to turbo doesn't make that much sense either.

what was wrong with my post to PAtrick? Patrick i felt was trying to make me look bad when i felt i wasn't and PAtrick should have known better, hence my vote.
And my point to Turbo was consistent with my thoughts at the time that the unfair lynch of Ozy would be very, very bad, and i wasnted it stopped. My thoughts on Ozy at the time i felt were not important comapred to trying to persuade peopel to give him more time.

turbo - i know i didn't make much of a claim on my thoughts of ozy's scumminess. i didn't think my thoughts on the matter were especially important compared to the question on what i thought a fair lynch was.

May I ask what everyone else thinks of ozy's alignment?

likely town, but i wanted to test it when we came out of night and found no one dead. No one else liked that idea though, it was pretty much shot down by the more experienced people around.

[kilmenator]

the reason i ask is because if you look at the set up of the other game, once people were lynched they became on the opposite side instead of dying. so for example, if XXX were a protownie and we lynched him, XXX would not die he would come back as a player for scum and likewise with YYY if YYY were a scum buddie and was lynched, YYY would come back as a townie. it was in the setup of the other game. i am not saying we need to try it, i just want to make sure that it is out there if i get NK'ed. i thought that klebians summary was good, but again, i would like him to outline who he thinks is scum and why, not summarize the game. he has proven he is willing to work and the summary has been good to refresh my memory, but again, i dont like that he is not willing to put forth who he thinks is scum.

[geraintm]

the reason i ask is because if you look at the set up of the other game, once people were lynched they became on the opposite side instead of dying.

if this was the case, then i suspect ozy/colonel kutz would have told us of their alignment once they got lynched. that is pure guesswork on my behalf though.
i also think that mod wouldn't repeat himself so obviously...

[MrBuddyLee]

the reason i ask is because if you look at the set up of the other game, once people were lynched they became on the opposite side instead of dying. so for example, if XXX were a protownie and we lynched him, XXX would not die he would come back as a player for scum

This game had a scum godfather, which is a pretty huge advantage for scum. I'd be surprised if they got an additional benefit from recruiting dead townies to their side.